Author Topic: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??  (Read 5170 times)

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Offline manjisann

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I was removing the front end today and found this lovely sight. I'm guessing this occurred when the bike was laid down by one of the po's but this is the first I've seen of it.

My welding skills are fledgling at best, but one of the things I understand is welding can cause metal to warp. Considering the bearing races must sit in this area, that strikes me as bad. Fortunately I have an oxy/ace setup and some brazing rods. I am thinking of brazing some metal over this gaping hole, this would be to mainly keep dust and water from getting into the bearings area. Before I brazed it on though, I was thinking I should weld a piece of metal stick out to act as the fork stop, to replace what I believe was torn off. Any suggestions? Since I have a title in my name for this bike, chucking the frame is really something I DON'T want to consider.

Thoughts?

Brandon
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 05:52:37 PM by manjisann »
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

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Offline razor02097

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2009, 05:55:12 PM »
I tried to take a pic of what should be there but its kinda blurry
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Offline Alan F.

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2009, 06:10:06 PM »
That's not safe, if it can be repaired brazing won't be enough, it's probably got to be welded and then the bearing bore should be re-bored. Not something to tackle at home on a sunday night for most of us.   

Other suggestions may come up, there are many, many experienced metalworkers here and many who have built their own frames or have experience in frame repair.  Take their word for gospel.

As far as that bit of damage goes, please don't ride that bike, it's scary to imagine how unsafe that is.
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Offline robe0531

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2009, 06:26:06 PM »
to me it looks like it maybe to rusted to weld
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2009, 07:13:17 PM »
We have Fedrally certified Welders at work, you would need a machinist to re do the race and still it may be weak. It would be easier and safer to have a new headstock welded on.
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Offline manjisann

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2009, 07:26:00 PM »
It's not really rust, it's grease and grit. The stuff in the hole is the old raceway that I haven't bothered to knock out. I was actually thinking of squaring up the hole and brazing in a piece to fill it and then brazing in another piece over that that would be longer and would help hold it in place.

Quote
if it can be repaired brazing won't be enough, it's probably got to be welded and then the bearing bore should be re-bored

They make racecar frames with brazing, it's actually really strong if done properly. I hate the idea, but having it rebored afterwards may be something I should look into though.

Quote
We have Fedrally certified Welders at work, you would need a machinist to re do the race and still it may be weak. It would be easier and safer to have a new headstock welded on.

Since the VIN is on the headstock, how does that work?

Brandon

Crud, one more thing thats gonna cost money.

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

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Offline manjisann

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2009, 07:32:16 PM »
Does anyone know, would it be possible for a good welder (not me  :'( ) to remove the old raceway area and attach a new one without having to remove the whole headstock? Then I'd have to get it machined, ugh, this is gonna cost.

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

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Offline Hush

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2009, 07:59:35 PM »
hey I'd square it up and weld/braze (get someone to do it as I don't) as the bearings go in their but they hold the triple in place and the triple is also held by the top race, together they should be pretty strong.
I just can't see anything busting outa there once the bearings and races are in place and the triple is bolted up.
Just my thoughts and I'm a cheap bas#@&d ha ha.........your call Brandon.
Actually PM Soos and Marti, Marti is an expert (so he says  :D) welder and he will know what you can and can't get away with there.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline bryanj

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2009, 08:00:46 PM »
From the frame number this is the 650?

I would shape up a new steering stop from thicker material and have it welded over the hole and then just file out the inner part where the weld is.

With a set of taper bearings you will have 95% support for the race on original bore and in my honest opinion for the power the 650 puts out that is way more than adequate
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Offline Hush

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 08:07:23 PM »
Yeah what | he said. ;D
                |
                |
               \/
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline manjisann

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 08:15:16 PM »
Quote
I would shape up a new steering stop from thicker material and have it welded over the hole and then just file out the inner part where the weld is.

I'm thinking thats what I'll do. It's a 1980 cb650 custom. I really don't think this is a super torque area on the outer edge. I really think it's just to keep the bearings from falling out and dirt from getting in. It looks like it's been ridden this way for a while and I see no indication of metal fatigue, though I haven't cleaned it off yet.

Quote
Just my thoughts and I'm a cheap bas#@&d ha ha.........your call Brandon.

Not cheap, frugal  ;)

I just honestly think if they can braze race car frames, the lowly bearing races of my 650 should be brazeable. Guess my dremel will get a work out too.

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
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Offline the technological J

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 08:30:57 PM »
i used to work at a CnC shop that made races for timken... ur best off with a new head stock ur idea of getting the neck  welded and machined would be way too difficult... ur cheapest fix(in my opinion) would be cut a head stock off another bike  or order a new one and get it welded on.... u could even consider messing with the rake or longer or shorter forks..... just make sure your welder knows how to keep things in line
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Offline manjisann

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 08:57:30 PM »
Quote
i used to work at a CnC shop that made races for timken... ur best off with a new head stock ur idea of getting the neck  welded and machined would be way too difficult... ur cheapest fix(in my opinion) would be cut a head stock off another bike  or order a new one and get it welded on.... u could even consider messing with the rake or longer or shorter forks..... just make sure your welder knows how to keep things in line

I respect your experience and everyone else who has taken the time to post, thank you. 

Is this 4130 steel? I realize it is foolish to argue with people who have more experience than me ( I'm a fool, I admit it ) but why is brazing not an option? Provided I give the metal ample surface area to bond with isn't brazing strong enough? Ultimatley I am not looking to do butt joints, I know those are poor braze joints, I am looking to do lap joints. Everything I've read (note, I say read as I don't have a ton of practical experience here and I freely admit that) says brazing is very strong when used as a lap joint. I also don't see how this is a very high stress area. To me, the huge majority of the stress is in line with the tripple tree and is taken up by the tube, not this outer edge. The part that I am seeing seems to be there to help keep the bearings from falling out, and keep the races in place. If it was a larger area missing then maybe repair wouldn't be feasable. As far as getting it back into round, if I am careful, it won't get out of round, but if it does some careful time with a dremel should get it back enough that the races will fit in there correctly.

I honestly think I am going to try fixing it myself. From what everyone is saying, I'd have to replace the whole tube anyhow, so trying to do so I'm only out time and the small charge for the material. Since I am richer in time than money I am trying to do as much of this as I can myself.

Again, I apologize for tossing this up, and then arguing with everyone but unless someone can explain to me why brazing some properly fitted peices in won't work, or will make it dangerous, I just do not see any danger in it. Please chime in, as I do appreciate everyone's view and experience.

Thanks,

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

Trip and General Ramblings blog: manjisann.blogspot.com

Offline the technological J

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 09:08:20 PM »
u said ur not in to butt joints... lol...... but that aside good point go for it.. try to keep that  race as smooth and close to round as possible and u might have some luck with those newer.... (something) balls bearings thier a little different and if u do some research on here they're all the rave.... good luck dont spend too much money
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 09:28:35 PM by thegabrielj »
70 KO...sold to fund the ST http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88800.0(Alpha)
74 Kaw 250 Enduro http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=124278.0
K4 added to collection! http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=104784.0
78 750K... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60257.0 (Omega)sold to fund the K4
94 ST1100..Gone
72 750 K2 Stay tuned!

Offline manjisann

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 09:21:38 PM »
Quote
u said ur not in to butt joints

Sorry, note entirely sure what you mean by that. I am just saying I am not going to be doing but joints but lap. I am pretty sure this is what I will be doing. I will post the results, and if I end up in the obits down the road, well, my tombstone will read "They Told Me So!"  Ok, humor aside, I really don't think this is dangerous, or else I wouldn't do it.

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

Trip and General Ramblings blog: manjisann.blogspot.com

Offline Hush

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 09:23:00 PM »
Try ALLBALLZ tapered bearings Brandon, a piece of pie to fit (someone named Hush did a how to that you might be able to track down on here) and as I said before PM Marti, he knows his welds. :)
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline the technological J

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 09:23:53 PM »
lol best of luck keep us posted..... that was it allballz
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 09:30:20 PM by thegabrielj »
70 KO...sold to fund the ST http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88800.0(Alpha)
74 Kaw 250 Enduro http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=124278.0
K4 added to collection! http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=104784.0
78 750K... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60257.0 (Omega)sold to fund the K4
94 ST1100..Gone
72 750 K2 Stay tuned!

Offline 754

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 09:48:04 PM »
I got a Plan.. ;D

 Machine a piece of solid bar,, same size as race or .002 smaller.. length at least from where race seats to be flush with end of neck, Now where you think the weld will be on the patch drill a 3/16 hole in these 2 spots, leaving around 1/8 material toward outside edge.

 Now form your patch (mild steel), a curve & trim to fit, bevel the weld edges, then weld. When it cools,  drill out the 2 holes till they break thru the edge of solid slug, even if the weld penetrated. NOW, you can DRIVE out the slug and the hole will be very round.. might need tiny touchup on root of weld.

 Clean it up & you are done.. ;D

 754..
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Offline HB-1fan

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 10:16:10 PM »
Brandon,
  First of all its not 4130, just mild steel like 754 said!
 
Let me expand on his plan. Machine the slug out of aluninum so your weld will not stick to it at all. After you clean up the outside of your weld or braze, machine a ring to fit the outside(or get lucky with a slice of tube or pipe) and tack weld it to the outside for re-inforcment.
 Keep in mind, if you pay someone a couple hundred for this you might be better off getting another salvage frame and title.

Rick
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Offline razor02097

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2009, 04:18:48 AM »
Hose clamp and duct tape.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

kidding...kidding...


What brazing rods would you use?  I agree brazing is a very strong way.  The only thing I would think is bad is that the head would be hella hot when you do.  If you can fab a patch piece I would have someone TIG weld it on the frame.  Heat control man  :D
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Offline Alan F.

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2009, 06:31:46 AM »
Brandon, I'm beginning to think you're not out of luck, maybe you've got enough good steel left in that bearing bore to support a tapered roller kit then just braze up a patch to cover the missing area and act as a steering stop.


It's not really rust, it's grease and grit. The stuff in the hole is the old raceway that I haven't bothered to knock out. I was actually thinking of squaring up the hole and brazing in a piece to fill it and then brazing in another piece over that that would be longer and would help hold it in place.

Does anyone know, would it be possible for a good welder (not me  :'( ) to remove the old raceway area and attach a new one without having to remove the whole headstock? Then I'd have to get it machined, ugh, this is gonna cost.

If you're going to swap out the original ball bearing setup with a tapered roller kit you may be in luck.  I don't know how deep that bearing bore goes up into the headstock on a CB650 frame, but the bore on my 750K3 was pretty deep, I think it was near 7/10" deep but I'd have to check my notes to be sure, but it was way deeper than the bearing race needed it to be.

If you were to remove the old ball bearing races from the neck you'd have a much better look at just how much of the original bearing bore is still intact and how much is rusted away or compromised.  Then slowly grind away the rusted bits and have a look and take some depth measurements to share with us.

From the frame number this is the 650?
I would shape up a new steering stop from thicker material and have it welded over the hole and then just file out the inner part where the weld is.
With a set of taper bearings you will have 95% support for the race on original bore and in my honest opinion for the power the 650 puts out that is way more than adequate

+1

[I really don't think this is dangerous, or else I wouldn't do it.

Some people jump out of perfectly good airplanes...so no issue. 
It's your bike, so it's your call.  Respectfully.

I didn't really follow what 754's plan involved, I need more coffee I guess.
But the website is www.goallballs.com you can get them on ebay, you can have a local shop order them for you, it's a complete kit with seals bearings and maybe a few spacers. I hear they include directions now too!  They usually run under $50, read Hush's install thread as it was thorough and recent, and was also on a 650.

I think you're gonna be ok, but I do have one question.  When the PO layed the bike down hard enough to snap off the steering stop, was there any other damage to the frame? Were any welds cracked, was anything bent?  If you've got other frame damage, finding another titled frame may be the cheapest and best solution, sometimes they're not expensive. ($50-150 range wouldn't be that unusual)

But seriously, I think if you get those old ball bearing races out of the neck, you'll be able to get a better look at how much of that lower race you've got to work with.  Cleaning the rust off and patching it up will,as you have said, just keep the grease in and the dirt out, as well as restore correct function of the steering stop.
You probably won't need much, but good luck anyway.
-Alan

Here's a pic of the steering stop on my 750K3 frame for reference, I don't know what a 650's steering stop looks like.

Offline manjisann

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2009, 08:48:00 AM »
Quote
Some people jump out of perfectly good airplanes...so no issue. 
It's your bike, so it's your call.  Respectfully.

 :D Fair enough, maybe after this, I'll try it!

Quote
I got a Plan..

 Machine a piece of solid bar,, same size as race or .002 smaller.. length at least from where race seats to be flush with end of neck, Now where you think the weld will be on the patch drill a 3/16 hole in these 2 spots, leaving around 1/8 material toward outside edge.

 Now form your patch (mild steel), a curve & trim to fit, bevel the weld edges, then weld. When it cools,  drill out the 2 holes till they break thru the edge of solid slug, even if the weld penetrated. NOW, you can DRIVE out the slug and the hole will be very round.. might need tiny touchup on root of weld.

 Clean it up & you are done..

 754..

Man, I wish I had a machine I could do something like this on, but sadly neither a machine nor the skills for running it do I possess.

I couldn't fall asleep till fairly late last night and was thinking about this a lot. I am going to go to the local steel yard and see what they have for tubing in this size and what other metal options I have. I am going to coat the inner raceway where I don't want brazing or anything else like that to adhere with AntiSpatter gel (thank you Mig Welder!). That should keep that down.

Fortunately I swapped out the old bearings on my 500 with AllBallz Tapered bearings, so I am at least familiar with them. Hush, I will definitely do a search for your how to, as the instructions I got with it were dismall at best. Would the search string be "Sheep Swap" by Hush  ;)


Quote
What brazing rods would you use?  I agree brazing is a very strong way.  The only thing I would think is bad is that the head would be hella hot when you do.

The setup my dad left me has some bronze brazing rods in it that I have been using up till now. However since I actually care about this situation, I am gonna go buy some new ones so I will know they are fresh AND what their makeup is. I will ask the guys what they recommend, they have been really helpful with all my other welding supply questions so I am sure they will be here. As far as heat, the heat generated by a tig welder is at least twice that as what I will be using to braze with, the biggest difference is I will be heating a larger area.

Quote
When the PO layed the bike down hard enough to snap off the steering stop, was there any other damage to the frame? Were any welds cracked, was anything bent?  If you've got other frame damage, finding another titled frame may be the cheapest and best solution, sometimes they're not expensive. ($50-150 range wouldn't be that unusual)

First, I am assuming this is what caused it (and you know what mum always said about assuming) as I can't imagine what else would have. The only other damage I have found so far is on the right side passenger peg mount, it's a little bent up. Once I've completely stripped the frame down I'll have a closer look at all the weld joints and make sure everything is straight.

754 and HB-1Fan, you guys lost me, sorry.  ???

A big thanks to everyone who took the time to either take a pic, or dig up a pic of their frame stops, it's really appreciated! Also to everyone who posted, again, thanks. I'll let you know what I end up doing and how it works out.

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

Trip and General Ramblings blog: manjisann.blogspot.com

Offline 754

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2009, 09:02:39 AM »
I will make it simple..
Pull your race and measure depth of bore.(hole)

Take your round intact race to a shop with lathe.(10-20.00 job)

Tell them you want an Aluminum plug, size of the race.
+ 0...-.002.. length, is depth of hole.

Cram it in the hole, then weld

Remove plug, install race (after weld cleanup)

.................................................................................

The whole point, keep the hole round enough for the race, without 100.00 machining or more (to get it round after welding).. cant help more than that..
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 07:29:12 PM by 754 »
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Offline manjisann

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2009, 09:42:14 AM »
Quote
I will make it simple..
Pull your race and measure depth of bore.(hole)

Take your round intact race to a shop with lathe.(10-20.00 job)

Tell them you want an Aluminum plug, size of the race.
+ 0...-.002.. length, is depth of hole.

Cram it in the hole, then weld

Remove plug, install race (after weld cleanup)

.................................................................................

The whole point, keep the hole round enough for the race, without 10.00 machining or more.. cant help more than that..

Thank you, you dumbed it down enough I understood  ;D  If I understand you right, the reason you are using aluminum is because the steel will not weld to it?

Hmmm this might be an acceptable alternative to my brazing idea. Since the aluminum plug would be in there, would this minimize warping? How about making the metal brittle, would this not happen since it is just mild steel?

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

Trip and General Ramblings blog: manjisann.blogspot.com

Offline MJL

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Re: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2009, 10:09:41 AM »
to me it looks like it maybe to rusted to weld
Nah, almost never too rusted to weld.
No matter how fast or how far I rode, I couldn't leave her memory behind.