Author Topic: Yamiya left switch +new tail light = electrical mayhem + confused newbie  (Read 2525 times)

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Offline smashedmelon

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Hello there,
I installed a small cateye tail light yesterday. I attached the light under the seat and mounted it. The light is 3-wire, black, yellow and red.

I attached the:
black to the 4-way ground,
yellow to the green and yellow
red to the brown

The tail light worked, but seemed to be a bit bright though, and when I touched the rear brake the tail light went dim, then everything went out. The main fuse is blown.

Some of the other electrical issues it has right now that may be related:
Headlight only works on high beam
No Horn
The left switch is a OEM replacement switch, and the wires did not match the original.

Im going to go get a 15A fuse now, but my understanding is that the fuse blowing indicates a wiring issue...Does anyone have any suggestions that might help me out?
Cheers



« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 09:03:59 PM by smashedmelon »
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Offline smashedmelon

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Re: New tail light - main fuse blown- please help!
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2009, 11:17:46 AM »
here are some pics of my set up
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Offline smashedmelon

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Re: New tail light - main fuse blown- please help!
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2009, 12:23:20 PM »
ok,
so i installed the new fuse, and reversed the red and yellow wires, now I have no running light, the rear brake lights it up when depressed, put the front brake doesnt light up. The horn also doesnt work and according to the wiring diagram, the horn and front brake switch seem to be on the same path somehow...  ???
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 02:58:50 PM by smashedmelon »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: New tail light - main fuse blown- please help!
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2009, 01:01:05 PM »
Without info on the tail light, 3 wires have 9 possible combinations for connection.  You could simply try all 9 combinations until it works the way you wish it to.

If we knew what light bulb was in the lamp socket it could help.

If we knew which color lead attached to which connection of the lamp it would help.

If we knew which bike or which bike wire diagram to refer to, it would help.

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Offline smashedmelon

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Re: New tail light - main fuse blown- please help!
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2009, 02:55:30 PM »
Thanks for the reply, and sorry about the lack of info...
My project bike is a 1974 CB750 K3  
The bulb housing has "12V23\8W" stamped on it.
I have a clymer K1-K5 wiring diagram.

I took the light apart and this is what I found...
The yellow is soldered to the bulb housing, so i guess its the ground, which may explain the blown main fuse (please excuse my newbi-ness if i'm way off here!)
The red and black are both attached to the bulb.
I attached the yellow to the ground connection, and the red and black to the brown and the green\yellow harness wires.
The result: no blown fuse. however...
the taillight works only when the rear brake is engaged and the running light doesn't work. I switched the red and black wire connections with the same result.
The following is what is not working, electrically, on the bike, along with a history of any electrical modifications...

The headlight only comes on when I switch it on high.
The horn doesn't work.
The  front brake doesn't light up the tail light.
The tail running light is not functioning.
Other mod's and possible reasons behind the problems are:
Single wire aftermarket turn signals.
Switches: I replaced both switches with the  K4 set from yamiya. The right switch wires matched up perfectly by color, but the new left switch has 8 wires as opposed to 11 in the original. The new switch has no running light wires (blue\wh and orang\wh), and its missing the brown\blue wire which is for the buzzer. This is fine since I'm running single wire aftermarket signals and already had the buzzer detached, but I'm wondering if theres a path thats disrupted due to this?

Sorry for my long-winded reply and thanks for reading the mad ramblings of a green-horn.



« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 03:11:02 PM by smashedmelon »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: New tail light - main fuse blown- please help!
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2009, 05:11:24 PM »
The bulb housing should be ground.  So, I agree the yellow should connect to the green in the harness.

The bulb has a bright filament (23watts) and a dim filament (8 watts).  You can connect each in turn to a 12v source to find which one make the light brighter.  That's the lead that should connect to the Green/Yellow.  The dimmer filament should connect to the brown wires of the bike harness.

If you have a voltmeter you can check if power is getting back there.  If not, you now know why the tail light doesn't work, assuming the bulb tested properly in the above test investigation.

Quote
Switches: I replaced both switches with the  K4 set from yamiya. The right switch wires matched up perfectly by color, but the new left switch has 8 wires as opposed to 11 in the original.

If the left switch doesn't have 11 wires, then it isn't for or from a K4 then.  And we can't use a Honda wire diagram to determine the switch operation of functionality.  If Yamiya didn't supply you you with a spec sheet or information about how your switch is supposed to work, you will have to "reverse engineer" the switch to create a connectivity diagram.

Do they have wire colors the same as Honda?  How do you know they have the same functionality that the Honda ones did?

Make list of the wire colors and what you have them connected to.   Be aware that the more changes you make to the electrical makeup of the bike, the farther it will become from having the Honda wire diagram represent how your bike is wired, and the more difficult it will be for anyone without descent electrical knowledge to repair your bike.
With the part in hand and a few ohmmeter tests, I can figure out what needs to be connected where to a stock wire harness in order for it to work predictably.    But, electricity doesn't work on hope.

As for what doesn't work, since you don't have something standard for us to refer to, we will need your accurate descriptions and test results to get things to work the way you wish them to.  Then it's work on one aspect at a time, 'til there's nothing left on the discrepancy list.

We (and you) are going to need more info about that left switch, as it doesn't appear to be a direct Honda replacement part for you bike.

Cheers,






Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline 1timduke

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Re: New tail light - main fuse blown- please help!
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2009, 05:31:39 PM »
Have you already systematically ruled out bad connections at other points in the circuits?   If you've checked and corrected each point of corrosion, poor connection, or other weak areas, you can rule them out.   It would be counterproductive to replace or rewire a functioning part due when the problem is a weak link somewhere else down the line.   

I speak from experience :P

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Offline smashedmelon

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Re: New tail light - main fuse blown- please help!
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 05:08:12 PM »
Thanks for the replies,
The left switch is a Honda part, they pop up all the time on ebay listed as NOS but I think the one I have is OEM.
The original has 11 wires:                   The replacement part has 8 wires:
gray                                                  gray
dark blue                                           dark blue
white                                                 white
light green                                         light green
orange                                               orange
light blue                                           light blue
orange\white                                     black
lt. blue\white                                     black\yellow
brown\white
brown\red
brown\blue

I don't need the or\wh and bl\wh wires as I dont have marker lights (running single wire turn signals)
My task is to find out where the black and black\yellow wires connect to.
I have 6 possible connection options - There are two five way connectors on the main harness, one has all brown\white wires and one has all black wires connecting - both have 1 open spot. There is also one single connector, which is a brown\red wire, without a wire connecting to it. So if I want to try all possible connections, can I without frying anything?
And... is this even going to work? Or am I doomed to searching for a new switch and spending more of my hard-earned $ ?
cheers,
M

« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 05:13:36 PM by smashedmelon »
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Offline Kev Nemo

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Re: New tail light - main fuse blown- please help!
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 06:17:38 PM »
You could run the ground straight from the light housing to the negative post on the battery. I had that issue for a while as well. Silly question, but 1157 bulb right?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: New tail light - main fuse blown- please help!
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2009, 06:45:07 PM »
Honda made switches that looked similar for different bikes, but with different wires/colors.
I searched the Cb750 Honda shop manual wire diagrams, and none have the wire colors you list for your new switch.  You might want to talk with Yamiya about that.  I don't think it was intended for the CB750 by Honda.

You probably have the known colors hooked up ok.  It's Black and Black/Yellow that is of concern.
Black is Honda color code for switched power from the ignition switch.  I suspect your headlight circuit is powered from this black wire, instead of the Brown/Red that comes from its own headlight fuse used by the original switch.    To make the headlight work connect the Black switch connection to the Brown/red.

But, the black/yellow is kind of a mystery.  Could be a horn switch output.  But, I'd think it routes power (+ 12 V from the black wire, now a headlight fuse power) instead of making a gnd connection as the original did.  This can be checked with an ohmmeter. (I would)
If true, you will have to remove the power (Black) connection that is already on your horn, and supply that terminal with a ground.  Then connect the LG wire to the Blk/yel of the new switch.

There is some concern that the horn will draw more current than you present Headlight fuse will deliver, especially when the headlight is on.  The horn usually draws power through a 15A fuse on the K3.
The alternative is to run the Black wire from the Harness to the Black wire on the new switch negating any headlight fuse functionality.  This would draw all power through the main fuse only.

I'd prefer if Yamiya supplied you with the correct switch instead of a convenient substitute for them, especially if they maintained that it was a direct replacement part for a K3, as it clearly is NOT.  The simple fact that there is a different wire count is proof of that.


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Offline smashedmelon

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Yamiya left switch +new tail light = electrical mayhem
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2009, 05:48:20 PM »
Thanks for the help, I think Im on the right track but I'm still pretty frustrated. I got myself a multi-meter, learning to use it and I will try and explain my findings.

On the bright side...
I rechecked the fuses and found that the 5A tail light fuse was also blown(I'm an idiot). I reconnected the tail light and now the running light and rear brake light function. HOWEVER, there is still issue with the front brake switch and the left bar switch (horn and lo beam).

The following is my attempt to list the Ohm Meter Readings with the hope someone can help me out, since my electrical knowledge is limited.

1. When all tail light wires are connected:
           Front Brake Switch       Tail light Connection      Rear Brake Switch
Gr/yell         0.0                            0.0                          0.0
Black           1.                              0.0                          0.0
 Front brake switch doesn't function; Rear brake switch functions.    

When all tail light wires are not connected:
Gr/yell         1.                            1.                          1.
Black           1.                              1.                          0.0

The left handlebar switch is also a problem, I notched the switch housing and ran the wires externally when I installed the clubman bars. I cant return the switch to Yamiya now  :'( The headlight functions but the dimmer switch is not operational. In the Headlight Bucket, the white connector Ohm test is "1." The light green connector in the HL bucket also tests "1." . The only other connectors testing "1." in the bucket are the running light connectors, which I am not using, and according to the wiring diagram they are "N\C".
At the horn, the black wire horn connection tests "0.0" and the light green wire  "1.".
 
With reference to the black and black\yellow mystery wires running from my mystery left switch, I have detailed findings of the twelve possible combinations, if needed. In a nutshell, as long as the black\yellow is connected to either the red\brown harness wire or the Brown\white harness connection, any other combination of the black or light green operates the headlight hi beam and headlight control switch (on\off at right side handle bar switch)

I'm not sure where to go from here.



You could run the ground straight from the light housing to the negative post on the battery. I had that issue for a while as well. Silly question, but 1157 bulb right?
The bulb doesnt have anything stamped on it other than "12V23\8W"
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 06:01:20 PM by smashedmelon »
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Offline Kev Nemo

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Re: Yamiya left switch +new tail light = electrical mayhem
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2009, 07:09:57 PM »
Weird about the bulb-have a pic?

I switched my headlight to an H4 unitand the voltage keep popping the fuses. Switched to a 35/35w and it's all good.
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Offline smashedmelon

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Re: Yamiya left switch +new tail light = electrical mayhem
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2009, 07:23:42 PM »
my headlight is an H4 but it was running fine with the orig. left switch, which doesnt work anymore.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 09:15:58 PM by smashedmelon »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Yamiya left switch +new tail light = electrical mayhem
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2009, 11:32:17 PM »
I don't know if I'll be able to help you.  I can't get a firm handle on what your measurements mean.

I don't don't where you placed your meter probes.
I don't know which multimeter you have.  (thousand of different types have been made, and they have more variations than there are screwdriver types and shapes.)
I don't know which function you selected on the meter, or which range you selected within that function.

I don't know if you made resistance measurements or voltage measurements, or whether you had the battery connected to the bike during the tests if measuring ohms.

Since your "1" and "0" don't comply with standard or expected measurement conventions, you will have to clearly define what those numbers mean, and where the probes were placed during the measurement action.

I'm sure I could get this all working for you in 5 minutes, if "in person".  However in a textual media, descriptions have to be more verbose to fill in for the lack of visual input.


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Offline smashedmelon

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Re: Yamiya left switch +new tail light = electrical mayhem
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2009, 08:56:08 PM »
Hey TT,
Your patience is greatly appreciated, and Im sorry about my lack of info once again. I'm actually amazed you've stuck with me this far. Thank you.
The following is my attempt to answer the unkowns.
I placed the black probe on ground, the red probe at the connector being tested.
The multimeter is digital, UNI-T, model UT20B. Basic, $12.00 multimeter.
I selected the resistance measurement option, ohm positions available are 200, 2000, 20K, 200K, 2000K. I turned the dial to 20K.
The battery was disconnected.
Each measurement action had the black on ground and the red on the test connector.
 just realized looking at it that the "1." measurement is actually more like a slanted 1
theoperating manual reads..."the LCD displays "1" indicating open-circuit for the tested resistor or that the resistor value is higher than the maximum range of the meter."
The LCD displays this when the meter is turned on, unconnected to anything. The decimal place moves depending on which OHM resistance measurement is selected on the dial.
ie.   20k is  1 .
     200k is  1   .
    2000k is 1

The 0.0 reading actually started higher, and cycled down to "0.0". I also get this reading when I simply touch the red and black probes together. probes together
Does any of this make any sense?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 09:03:06 PM by smashedmelon »
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Offline TwoTired

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Yes that helps.
A couple of points that might help you...
Ohms is a unit of resistance.  Maximum conductivity occurs when the unit of resistance is lowest.  Therefore, if a switch or connection is open, it would measure very high or infinite resistance.  Your meter indication of a 1 is actually an overrange condition, meaning the meter in incapable of measuring the resistance between the probes, as when the probes are just waving about in midair.
Since you are basically looking for either very low resistances, or very high resistances you are unable to measure, I suggest you use the lowest ohm range available on your meter.  On this scale anything above 200 ohms will indicate a 1 (over-range).  But, you may actually be able to measure resistance values below 200 ohms, which is good information to have, as these low resistances are significant in the bikes low voltage regime.  For example, your 8 Watt tail light filament ought to measure about 20 ohms.  The 23 watt filament in the bulb, will read lower ohms, about 7.1 ohms.

When measuring ohms in a circuit, you have to factor all of the circuit elements into the measurement.  For example, if you place your probe tips on the unconnected stop light switch.  You should read near zero when the switch is closed, and over-range (infinity) when the switch is opened.

If you connect the stop switch to the tail lamp and measure from the Green/Yel post to frame, your meter passes its measurement power through the tail lamp filament as it is connected to frame and the stoplight switch post and should measure about 7 ohms plus whatever the wire resistance was in that circuit.  Note that on a 20,000 ohm scale, 7 or 10 ohms is so low, that the meter may only display 0 as that is below the meters measurement resolution, or inherent error contribution.  (The spec for your meter accuracy is +/- 2.5% of reading, which is 500 ohms)  But, on a 200 ohm scale (20 Ohm scale would be better), you ought to have enough meter resolution to get a digit reading other than zero. The spec says ~5 ohms error for this range.)

I suggest if you wish to test the stop switch, you either do it out of circuit (unconnected) or place the probe tip on the unconnected black wire terminal and frame ground.  The meter should give infinity when the stop switch is open, and a low reading (bulb filament + wire resistance) when it is closed.
The Black wires go to a lot of places on the bike.  For example it also goes to the Vreg, whose internal contacts at rest connect the alternator 7.2 ohm field coil to frame ground.  So, if you place your ohmmeter probe tips across any black wire and frame ground, the meter will send its power through that device as well as any thing else attached to the black wire distribution, like the winker relay and ignition coils, etc.

The meter injects power into the circuit being tested, and measures what is consumed by the test circuit.  It will use any and all paths available between probe tips.  You have to be aware of all the circuit paths for the readings to make any sense.

Is this of any help to you?

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Offline smashedmelon

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Thanks once again, this is a huge help. You have helped me understand some of the basics and I have renewed confidence. The bike I have has a rebuilt title here in  BC, or would be considered "salvage" in the States. Of course, the brake light has to be sorted out before inspection. I also found out that the horn has to operate, as well as the hi\lo beam, although the shop I contacted said they would consider passing it with just the high beam working. These wiring problems have seemed like some sort of voodoo to me. TT, your last post really helps, I am going to give it another go today as I have the day off. One other thing electrical is the clutch wires that operate the starter safety. The green and green\red wires are not connected and I have to ground them to start the bike.  Can I simply ground them to the frame, at the fork ear\headlight connection or should I connect the two wires as mentioned in some previous posts? AND if I connect the wires can I just simply strip them, twist them together and insulate or do I need another length of similar gauge wire to bridge the two wires?
I am going to write up a wiring for dummies post when I'm through with this!!! (being the head dumb a$$ helps!)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 10:23:55 AM by smashedmelon »
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Offline smashedmelon

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I tested it all at the 200 oHM setting, except for the dark gr\red but I'm confused by the results(of course).

Tail light connection (tail light connected)
brown  2.0
grn\yel  1.5
ground  0.4
orange  4.3
blue  4.3

Rear Brake connection
grn\yel  1.7
black  4.0

Front Brake connection
grn\yel  1.1
black  ***  no response at any setting

Horn
black  3.3
lt green when black unconnected *** no response at any setting
lt green when black connected, wire from horn  3.9

Bucket
headlight - blue .6
              - green .5
              - white 2.8
brown\red 2.0
black connections  3.3 to 3.5
grey  49.9
blue\red 14.8
dark green\red  1139 *** I had to set the meter at 2000 ohm for this one
ground connections .5
light green 3.9
brown\wh 1.8
black\wh 6.7
red\yellow 6.7
lt green\red  15.9
orange 4.0
blue 3.9
running light connection *** no response, nothing connected
Horn doesnt work, Head light works on hi only, and the front brake switch doesnt work. Do the results of my testing shed any light? not to me they dont



« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 08:59:41 PM by smashedmelon »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: New tail light - main fuse blown- please help!
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2009, 01:45:33 AM »
Unless you are willing to make calculations for all the branches that the meter is passing power through, the measurement approach you are taking is unlikely to get you anywhere.  I suggest you make ohm measurements on disconnected components of bike rather than with them in circuit.  I.E., test your stop switch with only the meter leads connected.  You should get high resistance unless the the switch is activated.  Then you get a low ohm reading.  You can measure the wire as an individual component, with both ends disconnected, placing meter probes at each end of the wire.

I expect the issues are that you changed more than one thing on the bike at a time, and you are trying to incorporate a part that was not made for your bike.  The most critical is that left switch.  If you are going to get it to work, you will need to get a better understanding of what that new switch does.

Take a different approach to problem solving.  The earlier post listed the wires you currently have.  If I had to adapt the new switch I would investigate how the Black wire power input to the switch was distributed within the switch.  Stick one of your ohmmeter probes on the black wire, and then check the other wires for continuity at all possible switch positions.  You should have continuity from black to Dark Blue or to White with the headlight switch on either high or low beam.
The Gray is the turn signal power.  In will (should) route to the light blue or orange when the the appropriate switch position is selected.  What you are going to have to discover is what the function of the Black/Yellow wire is.  How do the switch positions effect the continuity of the Blk/Yel to any other wire from the switch?  One question I have is, does it ever connect to the light green through switch operation?

Once we have a switch diagram, then we (you) can apply power and use the voltmeter to determine where power is or is not getting routed about the bike.
If I knew how your switch was internally routed, I could make a connection diagram for you.

The left switch is a Honda part, they pop up all the time on ebay listed as NOS but I think the one I have is OEM.
The original has 11 wires:                   The replacement part has 8 wires:
gray                                                  gray
dark blue                                           dark blue
white                                                 white
light green                                         light green
orange                                               orange
light blue                                           light blue
orange\white                                     black
lt. blue\white                                     black\yellow
brown\white
brown\red
brown\blue
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Offline smashedmelon

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Re: Yamiya left switch +new tail light = electrical mayhem + confused newbie
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2009, 04:42:36 PM »
Thanks for all your help T.T.
I surrendered to my inexperience and bought a left switch off a 74.

Feel defeated somewhat but the bike passed inspection after 2 years rebuilding it and Im back riding again.

Cheers


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