Topic: Members Leaving Really Sucks.....Sad Sad Sad.

[mlinder]

How many times in one month do we really need to rehash the exact same pointless topic?  People are going to do what they want to do.  End of story.  Do we need to start a freaking support group every time somebody decides to leave? 

Can I be a staff member for the support group, Gordon? I need a cool, fancy title, though.

[medic09]

Okay, it'll sound corny but I'm throwing in my two cents anyway.

Members who we've lost or who've stepped back recently (Upperlake, heffay, kghost) are all people who've contributed generously expertise, encouragement, and themselves.  I have often held up this forum to my aquaintances as a model - a community which worked, albeit without much real knowledge of each other, on kindness.  Plain, old, down in the heart human kindness.  We've had here a community of people who have no real 'gain' or 'profit' in helping each other; yet generously and tenaciously support and help each other on motorbike issues and personal life issues.  I have often pointed out how I have a nicely running motorbike because someone was kind enough to spend 11 days straight talking me through how to sort out the electrical issues; or how many parts on my rehabilitated bike came for little cost or even free from generous members who simply wanted to help because it would allow me to achieve something I want.  I have often proudly told people how members who don't directly know each other rallied to support members who were abused/ripped off (the Brimmer scam, for instance that brought out real indignation in all of us) or continuously provided community and support for members working hard in the struggle to deal with life's difficulties (Bill440cars' ongoing efforts to serve his family, and other such personal struggles.)  The generosity of guys like Mark/Hondaman or Lloyd/TT who take time to teach and coach the less knowledgable over and over again on all they know about these bikes and mechanics/engineering in general is remarkable and unique in almost any arena.  I have often told people how this forum is not just a technical forum, but a place with generosity of spirit often missing on other biker forums.  On another forum I have been treated like a simpleton and idiot when I've had difficulties; here I've always had someone patiently take the time yet again to explain what I missed on that carb rebuild.

The human respect and even dignity, the generosity of spirit and resources are what have been, for me, the hallmarks of the this forum as compared to other venues.  I think those who say 'tough titties' or 'grow up, we're not a bunch of little girls' miss that unique and essential characteristic of the SOHC4 forum. Maybe they miss how valuable that is in any society.  I challenge anyone to say that somehow he is more man than me (which is irrelevant); but I am sometimes disturbed when the human nobleness that is a foundation of this forum is forgotten.

Yes, this is an open forum.  So that means that my opinion or protest is just as valid as anyone else's.  Often I am too busy to be active here (right now with work, community, and fixing my recently crashed Triumph); but I've always looked forward to returning as I would to an old familiar club or pub.  And just as I have once or twice taken my little self, gotten up, and thrown someone the hell out when they've gone too far over the line; I think I have the same right to speak up here.

So please, no one I know wants this to be a sterile, prissy little place run by Miss Manners.  But I think many of us do want it to always return to the underlying respect and real consideration that makes this an important place of genuine friends for us above other possible venues.  Sure, we'll get a little rough edged from time to time or misjudge the anticipated/intended effect of our comments.  That's normal friendly intercourse.  I just ask that folks recognize and return each time to those qualities that make this such a fine place to hang out.

Most of the people who've left or stepped back are not fragile little personalities who had a hissy fit.  Anyone who says that hasn't paid attention to them over much time.  They are all people whose self-respect made them say at some point 'I've got better things to do.'  That should give us pause to think about what that really does say about our behaviour here.

Okay, off my soapbox for now...

[Damfino]

Very well said Medic.....

[myhondas]

+100 on the well said medic..
And as usual, someone jump on my previous post implying that I was advocating eliminating ALL non-bike threads and sterilizing this forum into a 100% bike only one. Sometimes it just p!ss's me off when my words are misquoted, twisted and turned into something other than what I said. Happening more & more lately.

[edbikerii]

Yes, medic, for the most part I agree with you.  However, it is the pettyness of burning bridges that bothers me.  Then the nerve that some people have to create new forum profiles and pretend that they are different people.

Fine, if you want to take a break, go ahead and split for a while.  Most of us will still be here.  Lord knows I've done it for the first 4 months of this year.

When I came back it was like all hell had broken loose here with people deleting profiles and posts and sending nasty-grams back to the forum via their old forum friends.

Sorry, but there's no explanation for that except a desperate need for attention.  Seems like there are too many here that are willing to oblige, too.  Not me.  I'd just as soon give them a kick in the ass on the way out.  That'll learn 'em.

At least when Fuzzy came back he had the balls to put his tail between his legs and suck it up like a man.  He knew he had been a giant pussy throwing a menstrual tantrum, but he came back and made his peace.  Now, let's get the #$%* over it.

Just sayin'.

[Damfino]

+100 on the well said medic..
And as usual, someone jump on my previous post implying that I was advocating eliminating ALL non-bike threads and sterilizing this forum into a 100% bike only one. Sometimes it just p!ss's me off when my words are misquoted, twisted and turned into something other than what I said. Happening more & more lately.

I am guilty of posting in a lot of the Micky mouse misc threads. But if they removed them tomorrow, it would not bother me that much if at all.  Hey, that's not a bad idea....what do you think moderators.....time to maybe clean up this forum and put it back to what it was started for....eliminate a lot of the bull crap threads and such. maybe that would help cut down on the personal attacks and nastiness that has been going on lately. I am a relatively new member, but when I look at old posts in the various tech areas and then compare them to other areas of this forum, like the shameless post boost thread, I wonder what is happening here....is the forum being transformed into a general BS post place?  It might just start to look like a serious bike forum again. Don't get me wrong, on almost every bike forum that I partake in, there are those general discussion areas. But they are less pronounced than here.   JUST A THOUGHT.....Glenn, Bob, Others,

So what part do you feel was "misquoted, twisted and turned into something other than what I said."

[coldright]

Men are so freakin' emotional and it would take a motorcycle forum to present such a fine example. 

[myhondas]

So what part do you feel was "misquoted, twisted and turned into something other than what I said."
[/quote]

First, it seems strange to me that you felt that my comment was aimed at you. sorry, it wasn't. and second, if you read word for word both of my posts and you will see that i did not say to sterilize the forum, just clean it up some. but do you really feel that if some of the bs crap was eliminated everybody would leave and stop donating and only come for info and all.  again, i said clean up some.....not eliminate. jeezzzz

[bill440cars]

      AS USUAL, Very Well Put Medic. Something that most don't know is, there just might be all kinds of issues going on in someone's life and something has to give! That's not always the case, I know. If those who are upset (for whatever reason) would just take some time off, things just might work out so that they come back. I, myself, have come to know a number of folks here, pretty well (as well as you can, without actually meeting face to face and a some even better than that). When someone leaves, that I feel pretty close to, it's like losing a Brother and it leaves a vacant spot.    Well, as usual, I've said more than I intended to and I'm out of here (just for a little while).

                                Later on, Bill

[Damfino]

So what part do you feel was "misquoted, twisted and turned into something other than what I said."


First, it seems strange to me that you felt that my comment was aimed at you. sorry, it wasn't. and second, if you read word for word both of my posts and you will see that i did not say to sterilize the forum, just clean it up some. but do you really feel that if some of the bs crap was eliminated everybody would leave and stop donating and only come for info and all.  again, i said clean up some.....not eliminate. jeezzzz

Well Ray, I didn't feel your post was aimed at me per se, but I did read both of your posts (word for word) and was confused as to where or who it is that might have misquoted you or twisted your words. That's all, really.

[Frankenkit]

There was a year-ish lapse in time where I didn't post here because I really didn't feel like this place was a community yet.  It wasn't my scene and since I couldn't work much on my at that time, I just left. 

(if you look hard enough, you can find posts from me from 2006 where I say something newbie-ish about thinking my valve cover was my head cover.  It's true, and horrifying. That's how far I've come)

I agree 100% with mlinder's assessment of the forum, with the caveat that also, with a group of friends or acquaintances you meet in real life, one does not take everything that is said to heart. People can type some pretty thick-headed stuff sometimes without really thinking about how it's going to affect the readers.  People read this stuff and instead of just saying "So and so must be having a rough day" just take it at face value and get hurt.  Forum reading is an art.

[mlinder]

Please be aware, I wasn't implying that anyone who wanted things to return to 'normal' wanted sterilization. What I meant was that, in an environment that nurtures community, things are bound to get out of hand now and then. It's a natural cycle.

Cliques are born, boundaries are tested, and jostlings for discovery of ones position in the hierarchy are inevitable.

Just as in any 'normal' community, patriarchs and matriarchs have their time and are eventually put out to pasture, either with respect or disregard. Priests, gurus, witchdoctors and sages are kept in their positions forever. New blood tests their mettle against the old guard, revolutionaries create sub-communities, and scientists and innovators are met with either disbelief, amusement, or hope, depending on ones predisposition to 'advancement'. Students, teachers, visionaries, thinkers, artists, farmers, salesmen, storytellers. They're all here, in spades. It's all dynamic, There are patterns, and they will continue to repeat.

This is normal, people. It's nothing more than a microcosmic mirror of the world.

[Achmed]

Now, I'm no sociologist, but...

[754]

I onlty read pge 1 & 3..but,
 Let them take their marbles and go...

 If they are cracking under this pressure,  ask yourself, would you want to be on a long ride with them?

 Bill if they are true friends, they should  contact you once in a while, even if they have left...

 Hey we are all over 12 yrs old here , are we not?

 It just forum life..no more.. no less..

[754]

754 says;

 "Lets forget about the FO.. and concentrate on the RUM "

 together, of course....

[mlinder]

Now, I'm no sociologist, but...

You making fun of me?

[medic09]

Please be aware, I wasn't implying that anyone who wanted things to return to 'normal' wanted sterilization. What I meant was that, in an environment that nurtures community, things are bound to get out of hand now and then. It's a natural cycle.

Cliques are born, boundaries are tested, and jostlings for discovery of ones position in the hierarchy are inevitable.

Just as in any 'normal' community, patriarchs and matriarchs have their time and are eventually put out to pasture, either with respect or disregard. Priests, gurus, witchdoctors and sages are kept in their positions forever. New blood tests their mettle against the old guard, revolutionaries create sub-communities, and scientists and innovators are met with either disbelief, amusement, or hope, depending on ones predisposition to 'advancement'. Students, teachers, visionaries, thinkers, artists, farmers, salesmen, storytellers. They're all here, in spades. It's all dynamic, There are patterns, and they will continue to repeat.

This is normal, people. It's nothing more than a microcosmic mirror of the world.

Possibly a sociologically appropriate observation. I'm sure someone like Konrad Lorenz would approve and apply it (though I may not remember correctly his theories from oh so long ago in school).  But I'd bet most of us do not live as if we have no choice but succumb to some set of patterns that determines our behaviour and fate.  We do, in fact, hold people responsible for their choices and behaviours.  Hence the whole notion of justice and punishment; including how we 'punish' people in our personal lives by showing disapproval of their behaviour or treatment of us.  That being the case, on this forum we also have choices to make about our attitudes and our treatment of each other.  I am advocating for taking responsibility for a reasonably civil and even dignified forum.  Again, recognizing that in real relating there are bound to be bumps; maybe even need to be.  But we take responsibility and strive to rise above demeaning or disrespectful interaction - because we see the utility of a civil intercourse and because we actually value and aspire to it.  I think, btw, this is true for any society; virtual or 'real'.

[mlinder]

Agreed, Medic.

However, I wasn't implying we we had no choice. Just as in real life, different groups frequent different locations. No one is forcing a person to patronize this cafe, or that restaurant, or this bar. And no, social patterns don't 'force' us to engage in behaviour we find distasteful (well, ok, don't usually).
If a bar is known for rowdy behaviour, one does not need frequent it unless they desire rowdy behaviour. You can think of "Off Topic" as the "South Side" of the city of SOHC4, and the thread SBPT as the dive bar of the south side.
Don't want to go to a dive bar on the south side? Easy, then, don't go there.
Only when that rowdiness affects, say, the 'University' (main forum) adversely, is there a problem. There's no bus that forces people to visit between the two locations, and to be honest, some students and teachers need a drink at the dive bar now and then to decompress from learning and teaching.

I know, big stupid metaphor, and I agree that people should be a bit more careful about their negative interactions with people, no matter where the 'location', while understanding that a forum isn't the best place to hold real conversations, since so much is lost in communication without vocal inflections, body language, and facial expressions.

The patterns are there, though, medic, and have been for thousands of years. Our best bet is to ride the moral top of those patterns and hope for the best, but we are human, after all.

[lowmileage]

    Nobody ain't goin' anywhere till I get my bike done and on the road again .


 

[Uncle Ernie]

While we're waiting for the glue to dry, Dave will light a butt, watch the smoke dissipate, look around, and finally say, "I been meanin to ask- where'd you get those boots?" Zoop- we're off and running.
Or- "So did you tell your daughter about the birds and the bees yet?"  Shazam- does this thing have any brakes?
It just happens with a lot of things/activities, and motorcycles are no different.

I guess my feelings have gotten hurt some.  Somebody I sort of knew and maybe even liked just makes a proclamation and stomps out the door.  I have to agree with Ed on this one; it's just histrionics.  If you're going to leave, shut the door quietly and don't wake me up. 


Which reminds me- will somebody in Jolly Ol' look in on John Baker (Old Biker) and report back?  I worry about him.

[Caaveman82]

While I appreciate everyone's opinion on this entire forum, even if I don't agree with it, I think there is way more anylasis then is needed for this. There are members dropping out left and right and it sucks, but it happens. I'm quite personally sick of the finger pointing.

[mlinder]

While I appreciate everyone's opinion on this entire forum, even if I don't agree with it, I think there is way more anylasis then is needed for this. There are members dropping out left and right and it sucks, but it happens. I'm quite personally sick of the finger pointing.

I didn't see anyone pointing fingers, really, caaveman.

Rational and civil discussion over something that someone finds disturbing or is disappointed about is healthy, and normal, in my opinion.

[Caaveman82]

While I appreciate everyone's opinion on this entire forum, even if I don't agree with it, I think there is way more anylasis then is needed for this. There are members dropping out left and right and it sucks, but it happens. I'm quite personally sick of the finger pointing.

I didn't see anyone pointing fingers, really, caaveman.

Rational and civil discussion over something that someone finds disturbing or is disappointed about is healthy, and normal, in my opinion.

You are correct, there was no finger pointing, this time around. Just wait a day or two. The other thing is that this same conversation is had every time a member leaves. Also, you will not trick me with your new avatar and lack of talking about pirates, I know who you are buddy! That's just like my opinion though.

[burmashave]

Here are my observations. We haven't lost just one or two long timers lately, we've lost a bunch. Unless we look at these as isolated incidents, we can expect more. The forum is changing, and according to some of those who have left, these changes have drained the fun they had here at one time. With each long timer goes a certain amount of technical knowledge. Lastly, to simplify, there are at least two camps regarding a proper response. Some folks openly lament each loss, while others feel we should move on and prevent more from leaving by treating exit as a non-event.

My personal feeling is that I would not want anyone to feel uncomfortable by my presence in person or online. Given my druthers, I'd like even the most thin skinned to feel comfortable here, provided such folks do not dole out more than they'd like to receive.

I'm not proud to admit that a couple of years back, I laid into Uncle Ernie in a political thread. At the time, I realized that I was becoming a miserable person to be around online. I gave up most Open Forum threads, and I tried to learn to keep my attitude online to be the same as in person. And I got to know Unk better.

[Laminar]

because we see the utility of a civil intercourse and because we actually value and aspire to it.

I am 100% in favor of civil intercourse.

(I know, I know...discourse)