Author Topic: Spherical 4 stroke engine  (Read 3283 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline alltherightpills

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,330
Spherical 4 stroke engine
« on: July 02, 2009, 07:44:57 AM »
Saw this over on thekneeslider.com...

"Here’s a 4 stroke engine concept you have to see to understand, the Peraves Superballmotor uses a multipart sphere to replace the usual crankshaft, rods and pistons of a normal internal combustion engine.

The moving parts of the sphere have ceramic balls on their exterior which travel in grooves in the case surrounding the sphere. The rotating motion of the sphere causes the moving parts, which serve as pistons, to go through the 4 stroke cycle in 2 working chambers, which would be comparable to a 2 cylinder engine. Air and fuel are introduced at the sides near the rotating axis, are supercharged through the use of prechambers, flow into the gaps in the sphere created by the motion of the sphere, followed by compression, power and exhaust as you would expect. You have to watch the animation on their site to see the whole process because a description doesn’t work very well."



I don't know how much power this thing produces, but it looks pretty interesting.  Here is their website:

http://kugelmotor.peraves.ch/index_en.htm
78 550K
77 550K (in pieces)
71 500K0 (in pieces)

Offline hoodellyhoo

  • CB350F
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,726
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 08:02:00 AM »
Interesting, but it seems like there is a lot of friction (the surface area of the ball) and sealing issues to deal with.
1972 CB350F (Back from the Dead!)- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20822.0
1965? S65 - Coming Eventually!
1972 CB750K2 (father-son project)
1976 CB750K6- (sold) http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=96859.0
1976 CB750K6 (sold)- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=62569.0

Offline Laminar

  • Retsam
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,632
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 08:02:42 AM »
My first thought is that there would be a significant amount of force on the guiding balls, and it would be hard to keep them from wearing out. Also, cooling would be difficult, since you can't have any kind of coolant running through the areas that see combustion directly, and because of their relatively large thickness, air cooling wouldn't be very effective.

But cool concept, it's neat to see someone thinking outside of the box.

Offline Tim.

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,945
  • www.DOTHETON.com
    • DO THE TON
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2009, 12:01:30 PM »
Not sure why the ceramic balls would be used vs some fancy cams etc. in the main crank shaft to control the movement of the 2 parts of the sphere.  I'd think they could be done away with.

Not sure how the sphere would be sealed against the motor housing to ensure good compression.'

Fun to look at anyhow.
Roule comme dans les années 70...   Roll as in the Seventies...

Offline bucky katt

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,564
  • i am a pastafarian!
    • facebook
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2009, 06:52:07 PM »
looke like a great design for really high rpms
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1894

Offline themotoworks

  • addict
  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 109
    • roc city cafe racers
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2009, 07:11:31 PM »
what are the benefits?  it seems like it would have the same benefits as a wankel engine... but is it any better?
www.roccitycafe.com <- my sideline turned living

Offline KB02

  • Take it easy there, Sonny, I'm an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,760
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2009, 04:35:12 AM »
I agree. Looks like a redesign of the wankle. Granted, I would love to see that Mazda RX8 engine shoehorned into a two wheeled chassis - It's not that big, it would fit rather nicely I would think.

I would like to see one of these Superball engines actually running. It would be interesting.
1978 CB750K Project
2000 Ducati ST2
...and a pedal bike

Join the AMA today!!

My project thread Part I: K8 Project "Parts Bike"
My project thread Part II: Finishing (yeah, right) touches on Project "Parts Bike"

Offline Laminar

  • Retsam
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,632
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2009, 06:34:33 AM »
I agree. Looks like a redesign of the wankle. Granted, I would love to see that Mazda RX8 engine shoehorned into a two wheeled chassis - It's not that big, it would fit rather nicely I would think.

I would like to see one of these Superball engines actually running. It would be interesting.

This one's pretty close


Offline mlinder

  • "Kitten Puncher"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,013
  • Stop Global Tilting now!
    • Moto Northwest
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2009, 06:44:37 AM »
The wankel has quite a bit less (actually, volumes less) friction than this spherical engine. the entire outside fo the sphere is in contact with the inside of the housing. Lot's and lots of friction there. The wankel has friction, for the most part, just at the apex of the rotor and the edges of the rotor against the combustion chamber wall.
No.


Offline crazypj

  • I'm brill, me
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,467
  • first 100,000 miles. 1977 CB550F
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2009, 10:06:21 AM »
Cool animation, wonder if anyone will ever try and build it?
 Finally though, someone found a use for the guts from a Rubik's cube  ;D
 Could have made it four chamber, still high friction but twice the power  ;D ;D

PJ
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline alltherightpills

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,330
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2009, 11:05:35 AM »
Cool animation, wonder if anyone will ever try and build it?
 Finally though, someone found a use for the guts from a Rubik's cube  ;D
 Could have made it four chamber, still high friction but twice the power  ;D ;D

PJ

They've made at least one, it's currently in a YP-400 scooter:




78 550K
77 550K (in pieces)
71 500K0 (in pieces)

Offline Laminar

  • Retsam
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,632
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2009, 12:48:11 PM »
The wankel has quite a bit less (actually, volumes less) friction than this spherical engine. the entire outside fo the sphere is in contact with the inside of the housing. Lot's and lots of friction there. The wankel has friction, for the most part, just at the apex of the rotor and the edges of the rotor against the combustion chamber wall.

Which is great until your apex seals fail at 70,000 miles and you need a new engine.  :-X

Offline edbikerii

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,128
    • Gallery
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2009, 01:01:24 PM »
Nah, just new seals.

The wankel has quite a bit less (actually, volumes less) friction than this spherical engine. the entire outside fo the sphere is in contact with the inside of the housing. Lot's and lots of friction there. The wankel has friction, for the most part, just at the apex of the rotor and the edges of the rotor against the combustion chamber wall.

Which is great until your apex seals fail at 70,000 miles and you need a new engine.  :-X
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

Offline mlinder

  • "Kitten Puncher"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,013
  • Stop Global Tilting now!
    • Moto Northwest
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2009, 02:57:18 PM »
The wankel has quite a bit less (actually, volumes less) friction than this spherical engine. the entire outside fo the sphere is in contact with the inside of the housing. Lot's and lots of friction there. The wankel has friction, for the most part, just at the apex of the rotor and the edges of the rotor against the combustion chamber wall.

Which is great until your apex seals fail at 70,000 miles and you need a new engine.  :-X

I wasn't commenting on longevity, but on efficiency. The more friction made, the more of the engines energy goes to just making the damn thing go.
No.


Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2009, 04:31:13 PM »
The wankel has quite a bit less (actually, volumes less) friction than this spherical engine. the entire outside fo the sphere is in contact with the inside of the housing. Lot's and lots of friction there. The wankel has friction, for the most part, just at the apex of the rotor and the edges of the rotor against the combustion chamber wall.

Which is great until your apex seals fail at 70,000 miles and you need a new engine.  :-X

I wasn't commenting on longevity, but on efficiency. The more friction made, the more of the engines energy goes to just making the damn thing go.

Looks to me like the friction would be focused on the 4 ceramic balls.

Offline mlinder

  • "Kitten Puncher"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,013
  • Stop Global Tilting now!
    • Moto Northwest
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 05:00:14 PM »
The wankel has quite a bit less (actually, volumes less) friction than this spherical engine. the entire outside fo the sphere is in contact with the inside of the housing. Lot's and lots of friction there. The wankel has friction, for the most part, just at the apex of the rotor and the edges of the rotor against the combustion chamber wall.

Which is great until your apex seals fail at 70,000 miles and you need a new engine.  :-X

I wasn't commenting on longevity, but on efficiency. The more friction made, the more of the engines energy goes to just making the damn thing go.

Looks to me like the friction would be focused on the 4 ceramic balls.
The combustion chamber itself is sealed by the housing. The entire surface of the "piston" requires a tight seal al the way around, meaning the entire surface of the inner ball and the entire inside surface of the housing must be touching. That's a lot of surface.
No.


Offline Laminar

  • Retsam
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,632
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2009, 09:37:06 PM »
The combustion chamber itself is sealed by the housing. The entire surface of the "piston" requires a tight seal al the way around, meaning the entire surface of the inner ball and the entire inside surface of the housing must be touching. That's a lot of surface.

Not necessarily the entire ball, but probably just the silver parts in the animation. As long as those have a tight seal, the yellow parts don't have to touch.

Offline mlinder

  • "Kitten Puncher"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,013
  • Stop Global Tilting now!
    • Moto Northwest
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2009, 07:03:56 AM »
The combustion chamber itself is sealed by the housing. The entire surface of the "piston" requires a tight seal al the way around, meaning the entire surface of the inner ball and the entire inside surface of the housing must be touching. That's a lot of surface.

Not necessarily the entire ball, but probably just the silver parts in the animation. As long as those have a tight seal, the yellow parts don't have to touch.

Yeah, you have a point there, but I can't see how the silver parts there can keep a good seal over any length of time. Piston rings expand a bit with pressure, so even as they and the cylinder wall wear a bit, the 'flexibility' of piston rings will creata  good seal until they reach their wear limit. The silver bits in that animation do not appear to be able to expand to make up for wear.
No.


Offline Laminar

  • Retsam
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,632
Re: Spherical 4 stroke engine
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2009, 07:19:41 AM »
Yeah, you have a point there, but I can't see how the silver parts there can keep a good seal over any length of time. Piston rings expand a bit with pressure, so even as they and the cylinder wall wear a bit, the 'flexibility' of piston rings will creata  good seal until they reach their wear limit. The silver bits in that animation do not appear to be able to expand to make up for wear.

Agreed. I would like to see a video of it running and a better pictures of that dyno chart.