Author Topic: 1976 CB550 Power problem  (Read 10246 times)

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Offline Zaipai

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1976 CB550 Power problem
« on: July 05, 2009, 01:04:46 PM »
I seem to be having an issue, my bike (76, CB550F SS) runs fine at idle, runs good if I slowly give it gas. However if I am on a hill it almost dies trying to take off from a stop. If I gun it at a stand still it bogs. It can get up to 45mph (so far that's all I have tried) how ever only if I slowly give it gas.

Here is the question. I am assuming this is because I am not using the stock Air cleaner and I have a performance 4 into one exhaust system. So do I need to rejet? If so how much and would a new rejet only include replacing the main jet? I am very new to carb rebuilds so any help. Gas flow from the tank seems to be really good. I have what I was told is the air box for the 76 CB550 however it does not fit. Infact there is only about 2 1/4" clearance from the back the carbs to the frame, so I am not sure I can find an air box and should probably stick with what I have at the momemnt.

Thanks!

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Offline mlinder

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 01:37:39 PM »
First, are all 4 firing? Sounds like they aren't.
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Offline Zaipai

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 02:28:08 PM »
Yea, just checked all 4 are working. All 4 plugs a getting a spark anyway. Also it has the most power when the choke is mostly on. Tho if I have it all the way on it cuts out. Oh and the timing seems correct altho I do not have a timing light and the one person I know that does is not around this weekend. So I plan to get one during the week and verify with timing light that its correct.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 02:31:15 PM by Zaipai »
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Offline mlinder

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 04:15:43 PM »
Yea, just checked all 4 are working. All 4 plugs a getting a spark anyway. Also it has the most power when the choke is mostly on. Tho if I have it all the way on it cuts out. Oh and the timing seems correct altho I do not have a timing light and the one person I know that does is not around this weekend. So I plan to get one during the week and verify with timing light that its correct.

All 4 sparking does not mean all four firing. Are all 4 headers getting hot, more or less equally?
Advancer working properly? Have you set your points? What do your plugs look like?
Done your valve clearances any time lately?
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Offline RichPugh

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2009, 05:46:24 PM »
My bet is your carbs/jets are gummed or gunked up as well as floats arent set properly. I had the exact same problem with my 76 CB550... revved OK while not under any load and idled OK but under load (i.e., with me riding it), it would  sputter horribly regardless of what airbox/filter arrangement I tried.

So, I pulled the carbs, pulled out all the jets (center push-in mains and thread-in slow/pilots)... they were clogged and gummed up pretty fair, pulled the floats out, the float pins and seats, idle mix screws and top caps off (and of course bowls off) and gave the 4-carb assembly to my local bike salvage place who ran the carbs through the ultra sonic cleaner a few times, blew all the orifices clean with carb cleaner and brushed out any grime in the bowls... $25 btw.

... Then I rebuilt them with stock size jets (38/100, came in the K&L rebuild kits from CRC2), new float pins and seats, new idle mix screws, I set the floats to 22mm height, set the idle mix screws to 1-1/4 turns out of full in, slapped em back on the bike and VROOM!... ran like a charm.

Right now, I'm running 35mm EMGO pod filters and a 4-into-1 header pipe with no baffles.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 06:03:02 PM by RichPugh »
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Offline Zaipai

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 08:24:58 PM »
Yea, all four headers seem to be getting hot not sure if they are all the same temp. I will check that out. I have not valve clearances at all so I will check that also. Not sure about the advance, how would I check that? I rebuilt the carbs but only did so with some carb cleaner and gunk cleaner in a can, so it could still be gummed up. I will check with the local shops and see if I can have done what you suggested and maybe with an air compressor they can do a better job clearing things out.

Thanks for all the tips I at least have a starting place. If either of you think of any thing else please let me know.

P.S.
What exactly is CRC2? Also my avatar is a picture of the bike in question.

Here is a link to my post here with images.. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=29646.msg585062#msg585062
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 08:32:01 PM by Zaipai »
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Offline mlinder

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2009, 08:38:50 PM »
crc2 is an online vendor.
http://www.crc2onlinecatalog.com/

SO, what I'd do, were I you, is do valve adjustment, make sure the carbs are clean, and synch the carbs.
See if it gets any better. Can start making educated guesses once that's done.

Just make sure the advance isn't gummed up or stuck. You can turn it by hand, and it should snap back easily. It sticks out the middle of your points plate.

You have a manual?
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Offline Zaipai

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2009, 07:38:07 AM »
Ok I will do that. I do have a manual. Thank you for the link that will make things easier.

I believe the advance moves freely but I will need to double check that.

Do I have to buy something to sync the carbs or is there another way to do that. I can look into the mercury ones I have seen other use, it might be worth the money just to have it around to check the carbs after sitting all winter. Do you have a recommendation of one I should get?

Also I have yet to pull the plugs from the bike to see what they look like. I will take it out and go around the subdivision a time or two and them pull them and see what they look like. The high temp pain on the headers is pealing a bit on all 4 so it seems on the surface that all 4 cylinders are about the same temp. Will probably pull them later tonight.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 07:52:50 AM by Zaipai »
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Offline mlinder

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2009, 07:41:23 AM »
It's good to have a carb synch tool in your tool set.
Get the motionpro one. Less than a hundred bucks, I think, right now.
You'll save yourself tons of money by getting one now, instead of taking the bike to some shop for synch.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2009, 09:16:30 AM »
Here is the question. I am assuming this is because I am not using the stock Air cleaner and I have a performance 4 into one exhaust system. So do I need to rejet?
Almost certainly, with those changes.

If so how much and would a new rejet only include replacing the main jet? I am very new to carb rebuilds so any help.

No, the main jet is selected for operation at 3/4 to full throttle positions.
1/4 to 3/4 throttle positions, would need the throttle valve (slide Needle) adjusted for mixture.  1/4 and below, as well as low end throttle response would be a slow jet and/or Idle Air bleed screw setting.
You should find out where your air bleed screws are set now, B.T.W.  Turning them in, ought to help with the throttle twist response, given the air filter change over.

I have what I was told is the air box for the 76 CB550 however it does not fit. Infact there is only about 2 1/4" clearance from the back the carbs to the frame, so I am not sure I can find an air box and should probably stick with what I have at the momemnt.
Post a pic of the air box you have.  The stock one is a tight fit, and it is seldom that newbies understand how to fit the carbs, air filter and air box into the frame properly.  Some never learn, and switch to pods to compensate for their lack of understanding.

Do vacuum sync the carbs after the valves and other tuneup items have been addressed.
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Offline Zaipai

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2009, 06:25:02 PM »
Wow, thanks for that info. I will get the carb sync tool for sure now.

Here is the picture of my plugs, it looks as tho I was way off base.. Not sure tho..
On the picture I marked the plugs left and right, that is as you are sitting on the bike. I can
not remember what cylinder is no 1 and 2 and 3 etc.. The bike has not been started at all since
Friday the 3rd so for 3 days its been sitting.

Here it is. I will post the pictures of the air box I have and the clearance I have on the bike.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 06:45:37 PM by Zaipai »
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Offline Zaipai

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2009, 06:41:15 PM »
Here is the air cleaner and the clearance from carb to frame.

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Offline Zaipai

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2009, 06:43:49 PM »
Just to give you an idea what I am up against here.. Here is the bike the day I picked it up and how it is now..

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Offline mlinder

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2009, 07:08:49 PM »
#3 looks a bit oily.
All of them look a bit rich, but then again, we don't know what the operating permaters were last on em. You could have been running with choke, which makes it difficult (impossible) to give an accurate prognosis.

(cylinders are read from left to rightr while sitting on the bike, 1 on the left, 4 on the right, just like reading a book :) )
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Offline Zaipai

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2009, 08:16:31 PM »
Ok, yea I was running with the choke about 1/2 way on. they were brand new when I put them in. I ran them for about 1/2 hour last Friday (choke 1/2 or so on) and no cleaners of any kind on just the boots for the air box. I did notice that there was some oil leaking from the top of the head some place could not tell where exactly but it was noticeable how ever it stopped when I shut the bike off and it was not a lot. I am not sure any of this helps but if its running rich, then why would it bog when I take off? Any ideas would be most grateful. I will have to find my book it looks like the two inside ones (no 2 and 3) are not firing or some thing, they look mostly black and one is almost wet. Where the two outside ones look almost brownish in the center.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2009, 08:35:24 PM »
Loads of reasons your bike might bog when trying to take-off....mostly carb related.
Might be time to remove the carbs and clean 'em...lots of advise here about that subject...
do a search....carbs are fun !!
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline Zaipai

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2009, 09:13:45 PM »
Loads of reasons your bike might bog when trying to take-off....mostly carb related.
Might be time to remove the carbs and clean 'em...lots of advise here about that subject...
do a search....carbs are fun !!

Yea I think I will do that it seems to be a reoccurring theme. Is it possible that one of the coils are not working
or not working properly? Looking at the manual I have it seems that the two plugs that seem darker are on the
same coil.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2009, 09:46:29 PM »
Coils are kinda go or no go. Plug 1 and 2 look sooty...but the plugs are paired off the coils as 1 and 4 and 2 and 3...seems weird, but true !!....points to carbs needing attention, and you have no filter connected to the carbs...an issue in itself !
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2009, 10:53:24 PM »
As you sit on the bike. Cylinders are numbers 1-4 from left to right.  Your plug photo shows 2&3 darker than the others.  And, the shiny one appears wet either oil or gas.  You should determine which.
2&3 share a common coil but they are also trigger by the same points set.  Make sure the point set is adjusted correctly.

It is also possible, since you have vacuum synced the carbs, that the carbs on those cylinders aren't opening enough for those cylinder to pull their load evenly and this could effect plug deposits.

Could also be that the floats are sticking or the float height is wrong for the inner two cylinders.

You probably should start with a complete tune up doing everything in that check list before trying to fine tune carbs to an ill-tunned engine.

Because of the wet spark plug, I believe a compression test is also wise, as you will never get the engine to run well if it has a bad cylinder.  Build a knowledge base beginning with a known state of engine cylinder health.  Adjust valves, do a compression test.  If those results are good, use new spark plugs, set the point's gap and timing, verify reliable spark at each plug.
THEN focus on carburetion.

These carbs have no accelerator pump. They rely on a slightly over rich idle setting, to overcome the rapid loss of vacuum and the resultant loss of fuel draw when the throttle slides are suddenly opened.  The loss of air filter restriction reduces the vacuum and leans the idle mixture.  Making the engine hesitate on throttle twist. (You will never be able snap the throttle open a get reliable acceleration.  But, it should respond with up to one half throttle opening with predicable acceleration.)
In short, even if the midrange and mains supply fuel adjustments in the carbs are rich, throttle reponse is relying on a different part of the carb metering circuits for throttle response at low throttle/engine power settings.
More directly, you will need to modify your carbs or get an air filter back on that bike!

The pictures of the air filter and air plenum look to be correct for your bike.  They assembled together and then placed in the bike frame (but, not bolted to it) prior to carb insertion on the front manifold couplers.  (Hold it as far rearward as is possible.) The rear couplers are compliant enough to deflect (remove the band clamps completely) and allow the carbs to pass by them as they march across the front couplers toward final alignment.  You will need to be careful not to tear those rear couplers already mounted the four air plenum holes.  Once the carbs are fully inserted into the forward rubber couplers, then get the rear couplers onto the carbs, install the band clamps and mount the air filter housing to the frame with the right angle L brackets.

But, before you put the carbs back on...

Be certain you have the correct and unaltered jet sizes in the carbs,  write down the slide needle numbers, and be sure the emulsion tubes behind the main jets are clean and clear.
Check, set the float height, as well.  Mechanically align the slides so that they are all able to close completely with the idle knob backed out, then use the idle knob to open all the slides to enable start up.
Make certain the orings on the main jets are supple and sealing against the carb body when they rest on the emulsion tube base.
Turn the air bleed screws out 1 and 1/8 turn out from lightly seated.

Then put the carbs on.

I think you have some work to do...  ;D










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Offline shizzomynizzo

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2009, 02:11:32 AM »
I had a similar problem, although the power loss was only at higher rpm's. Cylinder 2 and 3 were only firing at idle and low rpm's for me, and then would not work when driving. After cleaning the carbs...5 or 6 times, and checking over everything else, I come to find out it was a faulty condenser. I put on a new tune up kit which included new points and condensers, which is why I never thought to look there.

Without this site, i would've pulled my hair out and starting fixing the bike with a sludge hammer.

Don't know if this helps, but Good luck
1974 CB550
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Offline bozo4onion

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2009, 06:35:03 AM »
That looks very much like the correct airbox. I just converted back my '75 550F. You should try to install it. The bike will run much better. We know very little that Honda engineers didn't know in 1976. Get a good manual to show you how install it. Then you will know the EXACT jetting for the carbs and how to tune the bike too.

Offline Aaron Richard

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2009, 06:55:48 AM »
that does look like the right box you have. it is a big pain to get it in there but,, it does fit eventually. this is a main reason I changed to uni pod filters. I totally agree with pulling the carbs and really cleaning them and install NEW carb kits in them. I've spent most of my build time tinkering with these carbs, they do work well but, need to be perfectly dialed in to your machine's setup.
good luck!

Offline Zaipai

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2009, 08:19:44 AM »
Ok, much to the dismay of my wife, I have ordered a carb cleaning tool, carb sync tool (analog, they did not have the mercury ones) and new coils. I ordered the coils because the ones I have are starting to show cracks in the plug wires and the guy that sold me the bike said he was not 100% sure that was the correct coil. I also ordered new plugs, D8E I was told by a mechanic that those plugs burn better and should help some. I am still looking for a compression tester. I also ordered a carb cleaning tool to help make sure the paths are clear. I just rebuilt the carbs so all the parts that came in the kit are new and on the carbs so I will just use those. I tested the condensers using my handy meter and both should be working fine.

I still need to make sure that the timing is correct and as far as I can tell the wet on the plug in the picture was just gas as an hour later it was not wet any longer. At least I hope so because if I have to take the heads off I am going to pull my hair out.

I tried to install the air box but did not have any instuctions. At least on this post I have a better idea, however if anyone finds a link that shows/describes how to install them I would love it if you could post that link. I called a friend of a friend that works at Honda as a mechanic in Ill and he said depending on the carbs on the CB550 I may have no choice but to use the air box since there were some 550's made with carbs that will only work with the factory air box.

I have no idea what notch to set the needle at, I read one post here where the guy put them on the 3rd notch and was told to move them up as it was just the starting point and he did and it made all the difference.

Man my head is spinning. Thanks for all the comments, keep em coming as I can use any tips that anyone wants to leave, I will then print them all out and keep em with my manual.. Once I get the bike running good.

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Offline IHWillys

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2009, 08:32:56 AM »
Coils are kinda go or no go...

Kinda.  I've had two different vehicles suffer a failing coil that still produces spark enough to run, albeit poorly. One a '77 BMW, the other a '77 Scout.  Both with issues like hard starting and reduced power at higher rpm.  The BMW was diagnosed via viewing the weak spark at idle and switching to a known to be good coil fixed it.  The Scout had me replacing the coil due to the apparent loss of oil after which the other issues ceased.

Ken

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1976 CB550 Power problem
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2009, 10:50:01 AM »
I also ordered new plugs, D8E I was told by a mechanic that those plugs burn better and should help some.
Your mechanic is wrong.  The 550 takes D7EA plugs, unless you are racing full bore through the hot desert.  If you stick with D8E you will have to wait for the bike to completely warm up before you can ride it.  D8 is a colder spark plug.

I just rebuilt the carbs so all the parts that came in the kit are new and on the carbs so I will just use those.
We just had a thread where the owner's run issues were fixed by replacing the after-market carb kit's brass components with actual Honda parts.
Aftermarket kits are cheaper than Honda parts, but where do they save the money?  Could it be on ill toleranced parts or the extra people to check the parts making sure they comply with spec?

I still need to make sure that the timing is correct and as far as I can tell the wet on the plug in the picture was just gas as an hour later it was not wet any longer. At least I hope so because if I have to take the heads off I am going to pull my hair out.
You can still ride with no hair.  ;D

I tried to install the air box but did not have any instuctions. At least on this post I have a better idea, however if anyone finds a link that shows/describes how to install them I would love it if you could post that link. I called a friend of a friend that works at Honda as a mechanic in Ill and he said depending on the carbs on the CB550 I may have no choice but to use the air box since there were some 550's made with carbs that will only work with the factory air box.
Probably thinking of the 77-78 CB550K model lean burn set ups.  Gotta re-jet those PD carbs if you change the air filter set up or the exhaust.  Earlier carbs are more forgiving as they run a bit richer on the pilot circuit.
I most certainly favor the stock air box, despite the minor struggle to install the carbs it adds.
Here are the parts you need to restore the bike to stock:
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550f-super-sport-550-four-1976-us_model467/partslist/F++15.html
All except parts 13, 30, 32, and the filter box cover get placed in the frame before the carbs are installed.

Cheers,





Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.