Author Topic: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes  (Read 3324 times)

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Offline BobbyR

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2009, 05:45:10 PM »

EDIT: I'll have to continue this when I get home; I don't have the time to point it out while I'm at work. :/

Where do you work? The tax office?  ;)

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2009, 12:19:32 AM »
When defining "employee" for the use of taxation, this law taken directly from the Federal Register is pretty clear.

Quote from: Federal Register
Sep 7 1943 section 404104 pg 12267

"The term employee specifically includes officers and employees whether elected or appointed of the united states, a state, a territory, or a political subdivision thereof or of the district of Columbia or of any agency or instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing."

As a people, through the Constitution, we granted government certain limited powers; The Constitution is a document of limitations. It says to the government, "Here's what you can do but power that we don't specifically give you in this document, you don't have."

Each state has its own laws and its own constitutions. Those laws and constitutions are foreign in relation to the others. After the revolutionary war, the states decided to share some power that they had in common. For example, a uniform postal service, military, and monetary system. This is why the federal government was formed. In Article 1, section A for the federal government they delegated some very specific powers which are outlined in the Constitution. According to the 10th amendment, the powers not delegated to the federal government are retained by the people.

With regards to the specific outline that the US Constitution makes with regards to the power of taxation:

Quote from: The US Constitution
Article 1 Section 8, Clause 1

"Congress shall have the Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; BUT all Duties, Imposts, and Exices shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Article 1 Section 2, Clause 3 [VERY IMPORTANT]

"Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the states which may be included in this union."

 **NOTE: Apportionment is defined in Section 9 Clause 4.

Quote from: The US Constitution
Section 9 Clause 4

"No capitation or other direct tax shall be laid unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken."

Furthermore, an apportion tax must be enacted by congress each session.

In other words, it only allows fed to levy a tax on the states according to population and nothing else.

Quote from: 16th Amendment

"The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on income, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Quote from: U.S. Supreme Court, Stanton v. Baltic Mining
"[the 16th Amendment] ...conferred no new power of taxation."

"The result, instead of simplifying the situation and making clear the limitations of the taxing power, which obviously the Amendment must have intended to accomplish, would create radical and destructive changes in our constitutional system and multiply confusion. The 16th Ammendment as correctly interpreted, is limited to indirect taxes and for that reason is constitutional..."
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Offline tramp

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2009, 02:58:09 AM »
i think the fight is that when you work for someone and get paid that is not a profit because you have worked for that pay
a tax on profit is when you sell a house for more than you paid that difference is taxable
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Offline josixpak

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2009, 08:04:09 AM »
When defining "employee" for the use of taxation, this law taken directly from the Federal Register is pretty clear.

Hasn't this been challenged, as the word "includes" is inclusive, not exclusive? (United States v. Latham)
Look at D, http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=106504,00.html

Quote
As a people, through the Constitution, we granted government certain limited powers; The Constitution is a document of limitations. It says to the government, "Here's what you can do but power that we don't specifically give you in this document, you don't have."

Isn't this an interpretation? I recall a controversy over this including a Mr. Alexander Hamilton and a federal bank. I don't believe this has been as clearly defined as you make it.

Quote
In other words, it only allows fed to levy a tax on the states according to population and nothing else. In other words, it only allows fed to levy a tax on the states according to population and nothing else.

Didn't the 16th amendment eradicate the apportionment problem with its ratification in 1913? (Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R. Co.)
"since in express terms the Amendment provides that income taxes, from whatever source the income may be derived, shall not be subject to the regulation of apportionment."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=240&page=1

Quote
"[the 16th Amendment] ...conferred no new power of taxation."

"The result, instead of simplifying the situation and making clear the limitations of the taxing power, which obviously the Amendment must have intended to accomplish, would create radical and destructive changes in our constitutional system and multiply confusion. The 16th Ammendment as correctly interpreted, is limited to indirect taxes and for that reason is constitutional..."

This last paragraph seems to be pieced together with some stuff from BRUSHABER v. UNION PACIFIC R. CO.. The last sentence states the 16th amendment is limited to indirect taxes, which Stanton v. Baltic Mining stated the income tax was. I think I'm missing something here.
 

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2009, 11:24:39 AM »
Quote from: josixpak
This last paragraph seems to be pieced together with some stuff from BRUSHABER v. UNION PACIFIC R. CO.. The last sentence states the 16th amendment is limited to indirect taxes, which Stanton v. Baltic Mining stated the income tax was. I think I'm missing something here.

Quote
By contrast, an indirect tax is a tax that you can avoid by choosing notbecome involved in the activity upon which the tax is laid. An example ofthis might be importing products from another country into the UnitedStates. In such a circumstance one is required to pay an import duty.However, one can avoid paying an import duty simply by not importingforeign products into this country. Another example might be distillingrum in the Virgin Islands and importing it into the states of the Union.If one wishes to avoid the taxes involved in such a process, one need onlyto refrain form the activity.In short, an indirect tax is a tax that you can choose to avoid withoutgiving up the normal affairs of life. However, if one cannot avoid ataxable activity without sacrificing the ordinary affairs of life, the taxis not indirect, but direct. Thios is in error, indirect is just avoidable, not inconvenient.


Quote
Edwards v. Keith, 231 Fed 1:

"One does not derive income by rendering services and
charging for them."



Conner v. U.S., 303 F.Supp. 1187 (1969) on page 1191:

"If there is no gain there is no income ... Congress
has taxed income not compensation."



Wilby v. Mississippi, 47 S 465:

"It certainly was not the intention of the
legislature to levy a tax upon honest toil and labor."



Staples v. U.S., 21 F.Supp. 737, 739 (1937):

"Income is not a wage or compensation for any type of
labor."



U.S. v. Ballard, 400 F2d 404 (1976):

"The general term 'income' is not defined in the
Internal Revenue Code."



Spring Valley Water Works v. Barber, 33 P 735:

"A right common in every citizen such as the right to
own property or to engage in business of a character
not requiring regulation CANNOT, however, be taxed as
a special franchise by first prohibiting its exercise
and then permitting its enjoyment upon the payment of
a certain sum of money."



Tennessee Supreme Court in Jack Cole v. Commissioner MacFarland, 337
SW2d 453 (1960):

"The right to receive income or earnings is a right
belonging to every person, and realization and
receipt of income is therefore not a "privilege that
can be taxed." [from:Taxation West Key 933]

In this 1960 case, the Tennessee Supreme Court also quoted prior
decisions that defined the term `privilege' in contradistinction to
right:

"Legislature ... cannot name something to be a
taxable privilege unless it is first a privilege."
"Privileges are special rights, belonging to the
individual or class, and not to the mass; properly,
an exemption from some general burden, obligation or
duty; a right peculiar to some individual or body"



US Supreme Court in McCulloch v. Maryland, 4 Wheat 316:

"If it could be said that the state had the power to
tax a right, this would enable the state to destroy
rights guaranteed by the constitutions through the
use of oppressive taxation. ... The power to tax
involves the power to destroy."



U.S. Supreme Court in Butcher's Union v. Crescent City, 111 US 746:

"The property which every man has in his own labor,
as it is the original foundation of all other
property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. ...
to hinder his employing this strength and dexterity
in what manner he thinks proper without injury to his
neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred
property."



Oliver v. Halstead, 86 SE2d 859 (1955):

"There is a clear distinction between 'profit' and
'wages' or compensation for labor. Compensation for
labor cannot be regarded as profit within the meaning
of the law."



Stratton's Independence v. Howbert, 231 US 309 (1913):

"Income ... may be defined as the gain derived from
capital or from labor or from both combined."



The Supreme Court in Eisner v. Macomber, 40 SCt 192 and 252 US 189
(1920) and subsequently reaffirmed in Goodrich v. Edwards, 255 US 527
(1921):

* "... it becomes essential to distinguish between
what is, and what is not 'income'...

* "Congress may not, by any definition it may adopt,
conclude the matter, since it cannot by legislation
alter the Constitution, from which alone it derives
its power to legislate, and within whose limitations
alone, that power can be lawfully exercised ...."

* "Income may be defined as gain derived from capital,
from labor or from both combined, provided it be
understood to include profits gained through sale or
conversion of capital assets."



In the 1959 Tax Court case Penn Mutual Indemnity Co. v. Commissioner,
32 Tax Court page 681:

"The rule of Eisner v. Macomber has been reaffirmed
on so many occasions that citation of the cases to
this effect would be unnecessarily burdensome. To
depart from the rule at this late date would ignore
the sound principles upon which that case was decided
and would throw into confusion the fundamental income
tax structure and law as it has developed in the
almost half century which has elapsed since adoption
of the 16th amendment. That there cannot be 'income'
without a 'gain' accords with the common
understanding of the term, a test of construction
which is particularly appropriate in our system of
self-assessed Federal income tax ... Moreover, that
which is not income in fact manifestly cannot be made
such by the legislative expedient of calling it income
...."



So. Pacific v. Lowe, 238 F. Supp. 736, 247 US 330:

"'income' as used in the statute should be given a
meaning so as not to include everything that comes in.
The true function of the words 'gains' and 'profits'
is to limit the meaning of the word 'income'.



Laureldale Cemetery Assoc. v. Matthews, 345 A 239, and 47 A.2d 277
(1946):

"Reasonable compensation for labor or services
rendered is not profit."



U.S. Supreme Court in Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 US 105, at 113 (1943):

"A state may not ... impose a charge for the e
njoyment of a right granted by the Federal
Constitution."



U.S. Supreme Court in Magnano Co. v. Hamilton, 292 US 40:

"The power to tax the exercise of a [ right ] ... is
the power to control or suppress its enjoyment."



President Jefferson, concluding his first inaugural address, March 4,
1801:

"... a wise and frugal government, which shall
restrain men from injuring one another, which shall
leave them otherwise free to regulate their own
pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not
take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.
This is the sum of good government … "



Spreckels Sugar Ref. Co. v. Mclain, 24 SCt 382 (1904):

"the citizen is exempt from taxation unless the same
is imposed by clear and unequivocal language."



Oregon Supreme Court in Redfield v. Fisher, 292 P 813, pg 819 (1930):

"The individual, unlike the corporation, cannot be
taxed for the mere privilege of existing. The
corporation is an artificial entity which owes its
existence and charter powers to the state: but the
individuals' right to live and own property are
natural rights for the enjoyment of which an excise
cannot be imposed."



Long v. Ramussen, 281 F 236, 238 (1922):

"The revenue laws are a code or system in regulation
of tax assessment and collection. They relate to
taxpayers, and not to non-taxpayers. The later are
without their scope. No procedure is prescribed for
non-taxpayers, and no attempt is made to annul any of
their rights and remedies in due course of law. With
them Congress does not assume to deal, and they are
neither of the subject nor of the object of the
revenue law."
Reaffirmed in Gerth v. US, 132 F. Supp. 894 (1955) and
in Economy Heating Co. v. U.S., 470 F2d 585 (1972)



Regal Drug Co v. Wardell, 260 US 386:

"Congress may not, under the taxing power, assert a
power not delegated to it by the Constitution."



U.S. Supreme Court in Hurtado v. California, 110 US 516:

"The state cannot diminish the rights of the people."



Sherar v. Cullen, 481 F2d 946(1973)

"... there can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon
one because of his exercise of constitutional rights."



Miller v. U.S., 230 F 489

"The claim and exercise of a Constitutional right
cannot be converted into a crime."

ALL taxes must be either excises, duties, posts, or if direct, apportioned. How the tax is applied is what determines the class it falls into. If it affects any real or personal property, and cannot be passed on to another, it must be apportioned. If it does not affect such, it doesn't require apportionment, it requires uniformity . A tax on income is perfectly legal and moral, regardless of source, so long as the source is not affected. Defining "income" is the hard part.

If I buy a car for $10,000 and sell it a week later for $10,000, there is no income, hence no tax due because such a tax would diminish the original $10,000 sum I owned. As such, if I own 40 hours of labor, and trade them for any monetary amount, no tax can be due because such a tax would diminish the original value of my labor. Wages and labor can be a SOURCE of income, for example, for someone who owned a staffing service or temp agency and received their money based on someone else's labor. Or in the case of a union collecting dues from others' labor. The tax is on the INCOME DERIVED FROM A SOURCE, not the source itself. Labor can be a source of income, but is not necessarily income per se.

So whether YOU or the SUPREME COURT classify an income tax as an excise is really irrelevant . How the tax is applied will determine the class it MUST fall into , and constitutional rules governing the 2 great classes would then be applied.

But for the record, the tax we now know as "income tax" , was pre-dated by the "CORPORATE EXCISE TAX of 1909".
It was originally designed as an excise tax for the privilege of corporate chartership.

The only way the 16th amendment can be read is in harmony with previous provisions for taxation, as it neither repeals or nullifies any portion thereof. Same as any law..you can't read one line of a law and determine what is required, you MUST read the law as a whole.
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Offline gregimotis

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2009, 01:04:47 PM »





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Offline josixpak

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2009, 01:30:46 PM »
Pinhead, I still think I'm missing something. Are you saying that what the supreme court classifies a tax is irrelevant?

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2009, 12:20:33 AM »
Doug

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Offline my78k

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2009, 06:10:55 AM »
I say this is like an oil or tire thread...we usually just agree to disagree and then run whatever we want to! In this case, I say that if you are so confident that you are right then don't pay taxes. Since you are so sure in your position I would notify the IRS in advance just so they aren't surprised  ;)

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Offline josixpak

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2009, 06:44:35 AM »
Dude, this is the second website you've posted. I'd much prefer to read court cases or the law rather than commentary calling me a slave to the government or claiming the income tax is there for congress to buy voters. That being said, i started to go through the page.

First thing I noticed was the website's emphasis on "context," then it cites a court case (Evans v. Gore) that is specific to federal judges not paying taxes! In addition, it was a case that was over-ruled 19 years later in O’Malley v. Woodrough. http://supreme.justia.com/us/307/277/case.html

Sorry dude, I can't continue reading this site. As far as I see, there are 2 taxes, indirect and direct. Indirect taxes are not subject to apportionment. Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co. stated that the income tax was an indirect tax. Indirect taxes do not have to fall into the category of "duties, imposts, and excises," as stated by Hylton v. United States. It falls under "All other classes of an indirect kind, and not within any of the classifications enumerated under the preceding heads," as stated in Justice Chase's seriatm opinion (can't find a copy of that online. You have access to LexisNexis?).

I started reading this thread with an open mind, but I'm not convinvced. Anyway, keep fighting the good fight, as I'm all for keeping the government on its toes!

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2009, 03:02:17 PM »
This is great, I'm all for Pinhead (now there's a clue...) not paying taxes, and reporting back on his progress, and if it all turns the way we're expecting, we can all chip in and send him a cake with a file in it, or maybe a big tub of KY........... ;D
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2009, 04:07:19 PM »
This is great, I'm all for Pinhead (now there's a clue...) not paying taxes, and reporting back on his progress, and if it all turns the way we're expecting, we can all chip in and send him a cake with a file in it, or maybe a big tub of KY........... ;D
It will be fine, not to worry. Three Hots and Cot, and they even have a Doorman.
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Offline gregimotis

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2009, 06:30:51 PM »
It will be fine, not to worry. Three Hots and Cot, and they even have a Doorman.



And you don't have to pay income taxes!!!
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Offline the technological J

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2009, 09:53:05 PM »
you guys would love zeitgiest.. thas where this exerpt is taken from.. it full of conspiricy propaganda... though the first part is ripped apart as lies on youtube like thirty times... but it makes u think... i think its garbage... if u dont wanna pay income taxes quit working
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2009, 10:22:46 PM »
I went 5 years once. A clerical error on a company form made the phone ring :o

Accountants love it when you can hand them 5 years of stuff to work out, apparently it's easier than one at a time who knew?

Luckily I had made good use of my $$ and had a million dollar asset I could drag $50,000 out of.

P.S. I wasn't sleeping so well at the time, just didn't know how to get back on the straight and narrow. The longer it went on the worse it was. I sleep well now ;D  It's all fun and games until they want a HUGE check in 14 days :o :o :o ;)  I was lucky I had a good accountant referred to me 8)

Beyond my "tomato plants" on the bluff, I'm an upstanding citizen now ;)

Offline DammitDan

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2009, 10:36:36 PM »
Beyond my "tomato plants" on the bluff, I'm an upstanding citizen now ;)

I thought they were rose bushes?  ;D
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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2009, 11:51:47 PM »
Beyond my "tomato plants" on the bluff, I'm an upstanding citizen now ;)

I thought they were rose bushes?  ;D

Not even CLOSE ;D ;D ;D ;)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2009, 05:06:01 AM »
This is great, I'm all for Pinhead (now there's a clue...) not paying taxes, and reporting back on his progress, and if it all turns the way we're expecting, we can all chip in and send him a cake with a file in it, or maybe a big tub of KY........... ;D
It will be fine, not to worry. Three Hots and Cot, and they even have a Doorman.


Well as attractive as that pic appears, I'm not convinced Bobby, I'm reminded of a quote from Bett Mildler in the movie "Ruthless People" where she tells her kidnapper that, "he's gonna go to the "Mens Club", where he's gonna make a lot of big hairy friends, but he won't see them, because he'll be looking the other way"..............   ::)
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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2009, 08:22:02 AM »
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline DammitDan

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2009, 11:04:04 PM »
Well as attractive as that pic appears, I'm not convinced Bobby, I'm reminded of a quote from Bett Mildler in the movie "Ruthless People" where she tells her kidnapper that, "he's gonna go to the "Mens Club", where he's gonna make a lot of big hairy friends, but he won't see them, because he'll be looking the other way"..............   ::)

I remember my parents forbidding me from seeing that movie (they had taped it on VHS), but I snuck downstairs at 3AM and watched it one night.  I did the same with Revenge of the Nerds.

Ahhh, learning all about adult topics from cheesy 80s movies...  Maybe that's whats wrong with my generation!   ;D
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2009, 06:02:59 AM »
This is great, I'm all for Pinhead (now there's a clue...) not paying taxes, and reporting back on his progress, and if it all turns the way we're expecting, we can all chip in and send him a cake with a file in it, or maybe a big tub of KY........... ;D
It will be fine, not to worry. Three Hots and Cot, and they even have a Doorman.


Well as attractive as that pic appears, I'm not convinced Bobby, I'm reminded of a quote from Bett Mildler in the movie "Ruthless People" where she tells her kidnapper that, "he's gonna go to the "Mens Club", where he's gonna make a lot of big hairy friends, but he won't see them, because he'll be looking the other way"..............   ::)
Well there are some downsides to everything. At least he will be comforted by knowing he is sticking to his convictions.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: US Citizens are NOT liable to pay Income Taxes
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2009, 01:16:05 AM »
This is great, I'm all for Pinhead (now there's a clue...) not paying taxes, and reporting back on his progress, and if it all turns the way we're expecting, we can all chip in and send him a cake with a file in it, or maybe a big tub of KY........... ;D
It will be fine, not to worry. Three Hots and Cot, and they even have a Doorman.


Well as attractive as that pic appears, I'm not convinced Bobby, I'm reminded of a quote from Bett Mildler in the movie "Ruthless People" where she tells her kidnapper that, "he's gonna go to the "Mens Club", where he's gonna make a lot of big hairy friends, but he won't see them, because he'll be looking the other way"..............   ::)
Well there are some downsides to everything. At least he will be comforted by knowing he is sticking to his convictions.

That's true Bobby, and it won't be the first time someones said that "avoiding taxes can be a real pain in the arse"! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)