Author Topic: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?  (Read 3140 times)

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Offline medic09

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Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« on: July 17, 2009, 01:12:51 PM »
Possibly an unpopular notion, but one shouldn't simply ignore proferred evidence:


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443835180&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2009, 02:18:04 PM »
Possibly an unpopular notion, but one shouldn't simply ignore proferred evidence:


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443835180&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


That article seems to confuse the topics of changing the speed limit, and enforcing the speed limit.

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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2009, 02:23:37 PM »
I dont think there is any doubt a lower limit would save lives. You can just FEEL the difference between 65 and 75, just the increased momentum that you have. I think anyone that thinks a higher speed limit is no more dangerous is just deluding themselves.
As for lowering and enforcing. You can only enforce so much but if you have been in an area that has changed its speed limit, you know that people usually go 10 miles over, so at 65 people go 75 and 75 they go 85. It goes the other way too.
Besides, think of how many cops it would take to make enforcing the laws easy, now think of what it would do to your taxes.

Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2009, 02:33:19 PM »
the only time I've had a problem with a lowered speed limit has been locally on a road that used to be 55.

The houses are set about 5 acres back from the road, there's fences on both sides, it's a 6 lane road with a lane-wide grass divider about 12 miles long.
    They built a bunch of fancy neighborhoods back in there and somehow the Speed Limit dropped to 40mph.
    
So you're rolling soooo sloooow down this HUGE hilly road, you feel like you're never gonna get to the 55mph sign.                 It's a favorite hangout for cops now too.
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2009, 03:29:15 PM »
Vinman, did you read the article?

Quote
The preventible death toll due to speeding on Israeli roads was extrapolated by the authors from the US statistics in the paper, "Long-Term Effects of Repealing the National Maximum Speed Limit in the United States." Over the past decades, the UK and Australia have reduced their death tolls by 50 percent by installing nationwide networks of speed cameras.


Cameras don't eat donuts.




Having said that, I think that either reduction and enforcement, or both together, would reduce mortality.  There's plenty of data to support that.  I just think that the article mixes apples and oranges a bit.  They're using statistical data about the removal of a national speed limit in a different country to extrapolate the effects of not installing automated camera systems.

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Offline tramp

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2009, 04:04:45 PM »
can you say the words camera enforcement
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2009, 04:20:49 PM »
Quote
The preventible death toll due to speeding on Israeli roads was extrapolated by the authors from the US statistics in the paper, "Long-Term Effects of Repealing the National Maximum Speed Limit in the United States." Over the past decades, the UK and Australia have reduced their death tolls by 50 percent by installing nationwide networks of speed cameras.

Don't believe everything you read, that is a load of crap.!!  Our road toll is its highest ever at the moment and the authorities have friggin speed camera's everywhere. I think speed cameras are the biggest scam ever and have proven world wide that they do nothing but raise revenue. Someone needs to "teach" people how to operate their chosen vehicle properly, most accidents are driver error {mobile phones, drunk driving, loss of control, and a mix of inability and sheer stupidity}. I read somewhere recently that in England, a report was released that confirmed that the speed camera's had done absolutely nothing to reduce the road toll and therefore were only raising revenue, i also read that they would be scaling back there operation. If we were more concerned with driver {and rider} education then maybe we could make a dent in the road statistics, but until then it is just another friggin TAX.


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Offline magnus72

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2009, 12:11:35 AM »
http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm

UK Gatso cameras vandalized. I'm surprised at how many are torched. The preferred method seems to be tying a tire full of gasoline and lighting it afire.

Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2009, 08:16:15 AM »
http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm

UK Gatso cameras vandalized. I'm surprised at how many are torched. The preferred method seems to be tying a tire full of gasoline and lighting it afire.
the author of that page sure seems all broken up about it, like he was taking pictures of burned up kids...
                         it's like they're his personally owned money presses speed cameras.
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2009, 08:43:43 AM »
near the middle of page 1 the author does start to make sense.

Quote from: SpeedCam.co.uk/gatso2.htm
This Gatso near Peterborough has been set alight. Unfortunately, <- ;D the only damage seems to be smoke. The road goes down a hill but the camera can't be seen due to clever positioning. Its a shame there isn't the same amount of thought going in to genuine road safety improvements. Drivers come down this hill, possibly overtaking, and will see this camera just as they go under the bridge, they then have seconds to slow down before passing it. What sort of road safety is this?
 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 09:10:34 AM by Industrial Cafe »
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2009, 10:13:23 AM »
Mystic, I did not read it. I was commenting on speed limits in general, not on the article.

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2009, 12:12:16 PM »
i didn't read the article but as a motorcyclist it's bull #$%*.

consider this, lower speeds dumb down the driving abilities of most folks.
since their basically bored as hell their dozing, texting, celling, reaching over to swap cd's etc....ad infinitum (or however you spell it).

Since most motorcycle fatalities already occur at slow speeds,
consider how many crossing the yellow fatalities are added to to the slower speed limits.
I already rarely follow people who can keep it on their side of the road and this particularly in
the areas that have lowered the speed limits in the last few years. I think better driver education
would be the better way to lower mortality rates.

oh yea, I'm back and saw this post and thought, what the heck, lets kick some arse on the way back in.  ;)

Offline DammitDan

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2009, 12:32:09 PM »
I would prefer to keep our country as 1984-free as possible.

I can understand red light cameras (that's a REAL safety issue), but speed cameras are just Big Brother's way of generating revenue.
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2009, 12:53:53 PM »
M, people are just as asleep at the wheel at 85 as they are at 55. Yes most CYCLE accidents are at low speed and many are the cyclists fault and yes some are caused by cagers and some are caused by a rider not respecting the traffic around them. Better training would sure help but maybe less distractions in a car would help too but then there we go taking away from peoples perceived "freedom".

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2009, 01:14:57 PM »
M, people are just as asleep at the wheel at 85 as they are at 55. Yes most CYCLE accidents are at low speed and many are the cyclists fault and yes some are caused by cagers and some are caused by a rider not respecting the traffic around them. Better training would sure help but maybe less distractions in a car would help too but then there we go taking away from peoples perceived "freedom".

no, they can't be a sleep at the wheel round here at 85 or they want make it far.
it's a cycle we don't need to go into 'freedom taking that is', just do away with speed limits, I'm pretty good at dodging,
natural selection will take care of most of them.

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 04:42:01 PM »
M, people are just as asleep at the wheel at 85 as they are at 55. Yes most CYCLE accidents are at low speed and many are the cyclists fault and yes some are caused by cagers and some are caused by a rider not respecting the traffic around them. Better training would sure help but maybe less distractions in a car would help too but then there we go taking away from peoples perceived "freedom".
I think you just talked in a circle, maybe you should run for office. ;D
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2009, 05:56:25 PM »
I don't think it has anything to do with freedom at all, if you drive a vehicle on a work site there are rules and it is all about safety, you don't see excavator operators gas bagging on mobile phones while they operate or crane drivers,  nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with safety.


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Offline cb750fbomb

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2009, 06:14:13 PM »
The thing about driving safely is that driving safely requires being considerate of those around you and most people couldn't care less about their fellow man.
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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2009, 07:36:14 PM »
I was going to add "common sense" as well but these days that is a bit of an oxymoron, not at all that common any more.

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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2009, 07:37:35 PM »
Well I did say "freedom" as Some people feel that ANYTHING degrades their freedom.
As for office, I think I am too libertarian to do that!

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2009, 07:39:48 PM »
How would you feel if it was your son that was part of that natural selection? just sayin.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2009, 12:17:14 AM »
Possibly an unpopular notion, but one shouldn't simply ignore proferred evidence:
Evidence.. ??

The article is based on a simple numbers game, where only some of the numbers are deemed relevant.  They state:  "In 1974, the authors wrote, the US federal government passed the National Maximum Speed Law, which limited driving speeds to 55 miles per hour. The intent was to lower fuel consumption in the aftermath of skyrocketing Arab oil prices after the Yom Kippur War, but in fact, US road fatalities declined from 54,052 in 1973 to 45,196 the following year."

This is classic tunnel vision.  I was there.  People stopped driving because of gas unavailability, particularly evenings and weekends.  Recreational travel was curtailed.  If you drove further than one half a gas tank, there was a real possibility you couldn't get back because gas might not be available.  There were far fewer drivers and cars on the road.  Less people drove, less people on the highways, less fatalities.  Why didn't they factor that into their numbers?

But, I question why the arbitrary benchmark of 55MPH?  Why not 45 or 20 or Zero?  I'd bet money any of these lower choices would save even more lives!  If nothing else, much shorter trips would be taken due to time constraints!  Certainly lower speeds would be an incentive to just stay home?   I speculate the slightly lower number (55) is simply to desensitize in prep for another speed reduction.  Also, the speed reduction is more about revenue from a higher population of violators, than about saving lives.  I feel the ploy is just subterfuge, really.  What they are really lobbying for is spy cameras all over the transportation system.  And, someone is going to make a great deal of money for that contract!

As to the safety aspect, the real issue is driver skill, not arbitrary limits.  In reality, there are some people that can't handle 30 MPH, much less 55 safely.  Yet these people get driver's licenses as a matter of course.  I could speculate that lots of incomes; federal, state, and local, depend on having the maximum number of licensed drivers in circulation.
Why is it that there is no real skill required to operate a motor vehicle?

I just got sent, by mail, a new California driver's license good for another four years.  No test, either written or demonstrated was required.  OK, I haven't had any tickets in quite a long while.  They also had absolutely no record that I had driven a vehicle for the last 10 tears.  It was just a sign-here-and-pay- us-our-money deal, and the new license showed up a couple weeks later, with the same 8 year old picture on it.  Yes, it was convenient for me.  But, it sure seems like the overall quality of drivers on the highway continue to diminish, and is often appalling.  Many are simply unsafe at any speed.

As I recall, when the speed limits were raised here the US nationwide, the predicted blood bath on the highways didn't materialize. Actually, the fatality rate declined initially, but it has been slowly climbing since.  Most stats fail to make mention the difference in the number of cars or drivers that have been added to the highways since 1996.
If you put one marble in a big box, then shake it, it will only hit the walls now and then.  As you add marbles the chances of it hitting another marble goes up.  If you you put enough marbles in the box, the odds of them hitting each other become pretty frequent.

From Wiki-pedia:
Population of drivers/ Cars (millions) in 1996 -  180/206
Population of drivers/ Cars (millions) in 2003 -  186/231
Wiki-answers states that, "there's more than 5.7 million miles of paved highway in the USA".  Ask your self how many new roads have been added along with the increased auto and driver population?
Given that your are packing more drivers and more cars onto the same roads, that makes for a tighter auto/driver density.  Note there have been no increases in training regimen. If anything, driver training has become more lax, instead of increasing the driver knowledge base to compensate for the increased risks inherent with higher density.
Is it any wonder that there are more fatal accidents as the population base increases?  Particularly when you consider that many of them have lost their marbles?

So, instead of educating/training the drivers that can't perform correctly, the idea is to punish those that CAN maintain good driver performance by making EVERYONE drive incrementally slower, until an acceptable fatality rate is achieved?

And, by the way, it's really best we can keep an eye on all you miscreant non-conformants, too!  You need to be watched so you won't step out of line!
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2009, 12:34:51 AM »
I agree 100%, i see it every day, people with the inability to control what has become a "weapon", if they can't negotiate a bloody car park, what are they doing on the road..!!!!
The problem is also, as you've stated, there is a lot of people relying on everyone, getting a license then paying paying through the nose with traffic fines because of their lack of skills on the road, keeps thousands employed. They don't want to fix the problem, they just keep moving the goal posts to keep the money rolling in...


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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2009, 03:55:57 AM »
TT has said it all, from the dumbing down of driving skills to meet the requirements of the least skillful (which is what I meant in my
first dumbing down statement), to the keeping an eye on all us miscreants. TT even offered some facts. :)

BTW Vinman, my son was almost killed in a wreck because of the other drivers lack of paying driving attention.
The other driver turned in front on a blind hill and speed wasn't a factor.

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Lower Speed Limit = Lower Morbidity and Mortality ?
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2009, 07:34:52 AM »
I never said speed was a factor in everything. But I just wanted you to think about your natural selection comment as a lot of people die in these wrecks through no fault of their own. For example, say your son gets into a car with someone. He does not know they are going to speed. They start doing it, he cant very well bail out and he cant really just wrestle the wheel away as that itself could cause the wreck. All he can do is hang on and hope for the best.

Anyways, we can still disagree. I still feel limits are too high in some areas. Some places have 85 as the limit. I feel a number of people cant handle that speed but they are going to drive it cause they are allowed too. I think if speed limits are to be raised, additional training should be mandated to either make drivers better or weed out the ones not able to handle it. But even additional training does overcome human stupidity!  :D