Author Topic: Ticklers, timing and other starting woes... (Read 11850 times)

lordmoonpie · « **on:** July 19, 2009, 12:01:04 PM »

The day finally came thanks to a visit from the Wife's best mate and her new partner - someone strong enough to push the powered starter up to the CR750 and a chance to start her up.

First job - check the oiling. Bike in fifth gear and the plugs out, ignition off and spin her up. It's all looking good, with the oil cap up, the tank emptied - but would it return? Well after a few cautious seconds, it did. Not a torrent by any means but more than a trickle. I think the deep sump means I need a bit more oil in the tank but otherwise it seemed OK. Oil pressure was low at only about 20lb/sq inch but nothing untoward happening so I thought I'd go for a starting attempt.

Plugs all back in, leads on, fuel in and the taps open - flowing nicely through the see through filters and no initial debris which means I cleaned the tank out successfully. Now the first problem - CR31s with ticklers. I've never had a bike with tickler carbs before but was told that once tickled correctly, I should get fuel dripping out of them. I pushed them up and down rather then push in and leave it in for about 8 - 10 pushes and then left them.

Then, off we go, starter cranked up to full and applied to the back wheel, up to speed and dump the clutch. Normal burble for a new engine and then cylinder one fired....but none of the others did. We stopped and took the plugs out, checking for a spark on each one and then for another go...

Back up with the wheel spinning, clutch out and it sounded like it was trying so I opened the throttle the tiniest of bits and it was really popping, but still not catching. The exhausts were popping and blowing infrequent flame as unburnt fuel was lit in them but that's all. The header pipes became too hot to hold but still no starting.

I know the cam timing is right and I was orignially confident that the static timing of the ignition was right. All plugs are sparking nice healthy sparks which means one of three things - fuel not getting through (plugs were moist but not running wet with petrol), fuel from my jerry can was too old (it's a few weeks old but not ancient), or the timing of the ignition is out.

I think I need to check all three things starting with the timing. Anyone have thoughts on what theythink it might be? The wife took some video so when she's uploaded it I'll post it on - may take a month or so! Back to the drawing board in the meantime, rats!!

Steve_K · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2009, 02:06:36 PM »

On old English bikes, you pushed the ticker down and held it til your finger was wet from gas. I think that the tickler held down the carb float so the gas level was higher in the carb and therefore richer. These carb were Amals and I suppose your carbs work the the same.
Steve_K

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2009, 02:27:30 AM »

Steve, yes they're the same - the tickler is just a little rod that pushes the float down. I'm going to flush the system and put brand new gas in and try again so I'll hold the ticklers down until I get the gas right up....cheers!

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:05:32 AM »

G'Day Mate, dumb question probably, but do you have the spark plug wires connected to the right plugs? If it's firing on the bottom of the stroke and chucking a flame, I'm guessing your ignition timing is out....... 180 degrees!

Just swap your plug leads over so the ones now going to 1&4 are connected to 2&3 and vice-versa and see how you go mate, and if that's the problem, don't be too upset, I've done it too, several times...............

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:48:20 AM »

Thanks Terry - I'll check this one out. I did follow the ignition intructions to the letter but remember considering this was a bit woolly in the notes. Might be worth a try, i'll let you know...

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:11:54 PM »

I checked out the ignition again tonight and it's timed perfectly (for static timing) so the spark hits when 1 and 4 are top dead centre. Now the odd thing about this ignition is it's wasted spark so basically all four plugs spark every 180 degrees from what I can see. That means that whichever cylinder pair is under compression is the pair that will fire.

I think that leaves me with three possibilities:
1. The fuel is too old and no good - solution, drained the tank and carbs - new fuel for the next run
2. The fuel isn't getting through in enough quantity - possible, i need to tickle until they leak (where've you heard that before?!)
3. The self generating power box doesn't generate enough voltage in 5th gear and I need to try and run it up in 3rd - more compression resistance but more speed if it's possible to drive the wheel that fast....

Any thoughts on that?

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2009, 03:37:57 AM »

Yeah mate, if it's not ignition timing then I'm gonna vote for option #1, old fuel. I had the same problem with my old Suzy GS1000S, the fuel was a couple of months old, and the tank cap doesn't seal real well, so it would fire and faart and buurp, but not run.

I could actually tell just by smelling it that it was "flat", so I dumped it out and drained the carbs and lines, and as soon as it had new fuel in it, it started right up. My cars don't seem as worried about old fuel, so I mix the gallon or two of old fuel from my bikes with the fresher fuel in one of my car's 15 gallon tanks, so it's not entirely wasted. Cheers, Terry.

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2009, 04:56:55 AM »

Drained the tank last night but had a minor disaster in the process. Pulling off the petrol pipes I manged to snap the pipe off the fuel filter! Must be cheap plastic - don't tell Two Tired!!

I did want to use glass filters but they were so darn long I couldn't get the pipes to route without kinking. New filter in the post, new petrol lined up for when it arrives and 20 litres of slightly questionable old petrol duped into the tank of my trusty old Saab

Next possible run up is this weekend. I have a bunch of mates around on Sunday for our annual British GP BBQ so after a few beers they'll stand around and do anything!!

MRieck · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2009, 05:26:00 AM »

Quote from: lordmoonpie on July 20, 2009, 03:11:54 PM

I checked out the ignition again tonight and it's timed perfectly (for static timing) so the spark hits when 1 and 4 are top dead centre. Now the odd thing about this ignition is it's wasted spark so basically all four plugs spark every 180 degrees from what I can see. That means that whichever cylinder pair is under compression is the pair that will fire.

I think that leaves me with three possibilities:
1. The fuel is too old and no good - solution, drained the tank and carbs - new fuel for the next run
2. The fuel isn't getting through in enough quantity - possible, i need to tickle until they leak (where've you heard that before?!)
3. The self generating power box doesn't generate enough voltage in 5th gear and I need to try and run it up in 3rd - more compression resistance but more speed if it's possible to drive the wheel that fast....

Any thoughts on that?

LMP...the spark should be going off before TDC

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2009, 06:28:03 AM »

Thanks Mike yes that's the plan! The ignition is such that you set up to static timed TDC and then run it up. Once running I'll strobe it to the timing marks at approx 40 degrees advance on the standard advance rotor backplate with the engine over 5000 rpm.

I figure that you couldn't align it to the advance marks before running up with any accuracy or do you think I should have a go!?

MRieck · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2009, 08:42:10 AM »

Quote from: lordmoonpie on July 21, 2009, 06:28:03 AM

Thanks Mike yes that's the plan! The ignition is such that you set up to static timed TDC and then run it up. Once running I'll strobe it to the timing marks at approx 40 degrees advance on the standard advance rotor backplate with the engine over 5000 rpm.

I figure that you couldn't align it to the advance marks before running up with any accuracy or do you think I should have a go!?

Personally I doubt the fuel is bad after several weeks in a closed container. We have ethanol in fuel here which causes all sorts of problems but even that is good for several months at least. If you are getting the right amount of fuel (float level correct, air screw turns etc) and spark is strong is should fire without "tickling" or choke (fuel enrichment circuit). This is assuming the outside temperature is in the 70's. I start my bike with 31 CR's all the time with no choke in the summer.
Engines like a bit of retarded timing when starting, that's for sure, but it seems you have a bit too much AND you are starting the bike basically at high RPM (using the rollers). I'd advance the timing plate a bit. Terry's point about the timing being out of phase is certainly valid too but I'm sure you checked that scenario out.

Sam Green Racing · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2009, 11:06:53 AM »

Simon, we allways fire up in 1st gear but our rollers are heavy duty and spin up at hell of a rate. Rollers are available if you need them.
Another thing we found was to keep the throttle closed, just take up any slack in the twist grip, it would never start if you open the throttle.
What ignition are you using?

Sam.

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2009, 05:31:33 AM »

Sam, Mike,
It's a Boyer ignition so has a wasted spark AND fires on all four cylinders at the same time. Never having used a boyer on a four before I was surprised at this but the instructions that come with it say that's correct. I guess that means that I can't get this 180 degrees out like I could on a twin because as long as one piston is at top dead, all four plugs fire.

I've been starting in 5th gear so the speed of the wheel is not so great because of the ratios, the main thing being that 5th is easier to turn than 1st for the starter.

I think I'll advance the ignition about 10-20 degrees to see if that helps any.
I know that the carbs are probably not set right but planned to sort that out after the timing was done - as for running at 70 degrees air temperature, c'mon Mike - you've been to Manchester, surely you needed your coat

It's summer, it's the middle of July, it's raining (as usual) and it's about 12 degrees here LOL!

MRieck · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2009, 05:57:56 AM »

Quote from: lordmoonpie on July 22, 2009, 05:31:33 AM

Sam, Mike,
It's a Boyer ignition so has a wasted spark AND fires on all four cylinders at the same time. Never having used a boyer on a four before I was surprised at this but the instructions that come with it say that's correct. I guess that means that I can't get this 180 degrees out like I could on a twin because as long as one piston is at top dead, all four plugs fire.

I've been starting in 5th gear so the speed of the wheel is not so great because of the ratios, the main thing being that 5th is easier to turn than 1st for the starter.

I think I'll advance the ignition about 10-20 degrees to see if that helps any.
I know that the carbs are probably not set right but planned to sort that out after the timing was done - as for running at 70 degrees air temperature, c'mon Mike - you've been to Manchester, surely you needed your coat

It's summer, it's the middle of July, it's raining (as usual) and it's about 12 degrees here LOL!

Your point about it being in the 70's (F) is well taken

I have to say that's a lot of wasted spark with that ignition....that being said it appears out of phase is out of the question. I'd advance it 20 degrees and spin it up.

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:11:36 PM »

Will do Mike - in work tonight sadly so will wait for the weekend. The good news is that the replacement filters arrived today so I can reconnect the fuel and I'm back to square one

turboguzzi · « **Reply #15 on:** July 25, 2009, 02:13:28 AM »

same happened to me on the first start after I finish building the engine, turned out that idle was too high, so it was sucking air.

choke didnt help as it was simply flooding but not atomizing, more of a problem with big carbs

Try lowering the idle screw, there should be less than 1mm opening at the back of the slide (use a flashlight)

What did the trick at the end was a friend actually squirting gas into the carbs when I tried to start, then revs rose at once to 10K!

There's also starter spray cans that you can use in a similar manner.
TG

754 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 25, 2009, 09:46:29 AM »

I prefer to squirt in raw gas, but be careful. Get something that squirts a smaller amount , not larger, so you dont get too much, and maybe a fire..
AND PUT SQUIRTER FAR AWAY before starting, and no gas on your hands..

The main reason for using raw gas is, it overides any idle or jetting issues.. it clearly eliminates one of the 3 things it needs to run. If it runs on raw gas, then yu know the carbs need work. if raw gas still wont fire, then it has to be compression/ignition.

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #17 on:** July 25, 2009, 11:35:04 AM »

Tried again today and I reckon it has to be the carbs. I put fresh fuel in and tickled the carbs until fuel started dripping out. It was runnig in through the clear filters OK so the float bowls were full.

Ran her up on the powered starter and still nothing and that's with a 20 degree advance.

Took plugs one and four out and they are sparking nice and bright, BUT, after all that turning over they are bone dry and no smell of petrol. Looks like I've got a wrong pilot jet or they're blocked. I swear I overhauled these things a year ago so back to the drawing board now to check on all the carb settings.

Good shout about the gas squirting in. We have something here in the UK called "quick start" spray so I'll try with some of that and that should prove it's the carbs I guess. Damn these Keihin CRs are a pain....

754 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 25, 2009, 11:45:08 AM »

There are a lot of starting fluids that are not ultra-kind to gas engines.

much less high dollar unstarted ones.

Although it CAN BE DANGEROUS (need not be), Gas is still the best or only thing you should put through your engine..

JMO.. FWIW

turboguzzi · « **Reply #19 on:** July 25, 2009, 01:34:08 PM »

Quote from: lordmoonpie on July 25, 2009, 11:35:04 AM

Took plugs one and four out and they are sparking nice and bright, BUT, after all that turning over they are bone dry and no smell of petrol. Looks like I've got a wrong pilot jet or they're blocked. I swear I overhauled these things a year ago so back to the drawing board now to check on all the carb settings.

Screw out the idle stop even more..... the extra vacum behind the slides wil help you suck the fuel. remeber that with a hot cam, there's less suction at very low revs.

And if the gas squiritng works, I'll tell you a nice story about it :-)

I used just a small, old glass sringe.

TG

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #20 on:** July 26, 2009, 01:54:50 AM »

Thanks 754 and TG - it's pouring down with rain here today so this might have to wait for another day. I'm sure gas AND water wouldn't help much

turboguzzi · « **Reply #21 on:** July 26, 2009, 02:08:57 AM »

Quote from: lordmoonpie on July 26, 2009, 01:54:50 AM

Thanks 754 and TG - it's pouring down with rain here today so this might have to wait for another day. I'm sure gas AND water wouldn't help much

So it sounds like its going to be a wet motogp at donnington?

You are invited to come up and start it up in milan, it's 33C here and we are dying from heat,

got rollers though, so no need to push and sweat :-)

TG

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #22 on:** July 27, 2009, 04:44:31 AM »

Thanks TG, it was wet to start with at Donington and very very wet for our GB Motogp annual Barbeque, but we managed it anyway, all washed down with some Perroni and some Morreti funnily enough

I'd like to bring her over to Milan - we were in Lucca about 5 weeks ago and it rained pretty heavy. Thankfully even though it's cooler here, I have my home made petrol engine powered starter too. It means I just can't start things on my own but that's the next winter project - a GP style one man starter roller! No carbs on that to cause me grief!

turboguzzi · « **Reply #23 on:** July 27, 2009, 10:18:00 AM »

Petrol starters are a good show, people here just take the rear end of a scooter and mount it on a wheeled cart,

I just had to have a self starter so built myself electric powered rollers, just couldnt part with 1000 euros! It needs 220V but it isnt a problem in most paddocks.

Tg

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #24 on:** July 27, 2009, 11:40:05 AM »

I know what you mean - starters are so expensive. I built my petrol starter myself for about £250 and the cheapest sells for £600 here. The solo starters like they use in Motogp are £1600! I'm hoping to make mine for about £400...

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Author Topic: Ticklers, timing and other starting woes... (Read 11850 times)