Topic: Health Care in England Question

[mark]

Doctors told me it was against the rules to save my premature baby

In fact, the medical guidelines for Health Service hospitals state that babies should not be given intensive care if they are born at less than 23 weeks.
The rules were endorsed by the British Association of Perinatal Medicine and are followed by NHS hospitals.

I was under the impression that the gestation period for homo sapiens is approximately nine months.

This unfortunate lady's fetus fell out after five.

Call it a miscarriage and get over it.

[edbikerii]

Well mark,

53% of babies born at 23 weeks survive and grow into adulthood if given intensive care.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-06-02-prematurebabies-survival_N.htm

Why don't you tell them that they should have been left for dead?  Maybe they'll vote for ObamaCare then.

Doctors told me it was against the rules to save my premature baby

In fact, the medical guidelines for Health Service hospitals state that babies should not be given intensive care if they are born at less than 23 weeks.
The rules were endorsed by the British Association of Perinatal Medicine and are followed by NHS hospitals.

I was under the impression that the gestation period for homo sapiens is approximately nine months.

This unfortunate lady's fetus fell out after five.

Call it a miscarriage and get over it.

[mark]

Well Ed.

Perhaps you should read your article more carefully.

"In this study, most babies got aggressive care: 91% of babies born alive were admitted to the neonatal intensive care units, or NICU. Of babies born alive, 70% survived to their first birthday."

"Among babies born alive at 22 weeks, fewer than 10% survived..."

It didn't say anything like "53% of babies born at 23 weeks survive and grow into adulthood if given intensive care."

And what kind of adulthood do those survivors have?

Weren't you lamenting recently the plight of some acquaintance - pretty and sweet but not the sharpest pencil in the box - couldn't get a job that paid better than sitting at home on the dole?

I know a couple of 'em around here. Born prematurely in a time when most preemies died and there wasn't much anyone could do about it. Not real pretty, not really sweet, about the I.Q. of dirt. They sit around and wait for the check and then go blow it on whatever.

The only way to raise their standard of living is by raising your taxes.

How do you like that?

Well mark,

53% of babies born at 23 weeks survive and grow into adulthood if given intensive care.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-06-02-prematurebabies-survival_N.htm

Why don't you tell them that they should have been left for dead?  Maybe they'll vote for ObamaCare then.

Doctors told me it was against the rules to save my premature baby

In fact, the medical guidelines for Health Service hospitals state that babies should not be given intensive care if they are born at less than 23 weeks.
The rules were endorsed by the British Association of Perinatal Medicine and are followed by NHS hospitals.

I was under the impression that the gestation period for homo sapiens is approximately nine months.

This unfortunate lady's fetus fell out after five.

Call it a miscarriage and get over it.

[edbikerii]

Among babies born alive at 22 weeks, fewer than 10% survived; at 23 weeks, 53% survived; at 24 weeks, 67% survived; at 25 weeks, 82% survived; at 26 weeks, 85% survived, the study shows.

AND

But Parikh says parents are concerned about more than just a baby's survival. Premature infants are at very high risk of devastating disabilities, including paralysis, blindness, hearing loss and mental retardation. He says he looks forward to follow-up studies of babies when they are 2½ years old. By that time, doctors will have a better idea of whether the babies' survival came at a very high cost.

But we'll never know if we just let them die, will we?

Well Ed.

Perhaps you should read your article more carefully.

"In this study, most babies got aggressive care: 91% of babies born alive were admitted to the neonatal intensive care units, or NICU. Of babies born alive, 70% survived to their first birthday."

"Among babies born alive at 22 weeks, fewer than 10% survived..."

It didn't say anything like "53% of babies born at 23 weeks survive and grow into adulthood if given intensive care."

And what kind of adulthood do those survivors have?

Weren't you lamenting recently the plight of some acquaintance - pretty and sweet but not the sharpest pencil in the box - couldn't get a job that paid better than sitting at home on the dole?

I know a couple of 'em around here. Born prematurely in a time when most preemies died and there wasn't much anyone could do about it. Not real pretty, not really sweet, about the I.Q. of dirt. They sit around and wait for the check and then go blow it on whatever.

The only way to raise their standard of living is by raising your taxes.

How do you like that?

Well mark,

53% of babies born at 23 weeks survive and grow into adulthood if given intensive care.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-06-02-prematurebabies-survival_N.htm

Why don't you tell them that they should have been left for dead?  Maybe they'll vote for ObamaCare then.

Doctors told me it was against the rules to save my premature baby

In fact, the medical guidelines for Health Service hospitals state that babies should not be given intensive care if they are born at less than 23 weeks.
The rules were endorsed by the British Association of Perinatal Medicine and are followed by NHS hospitals.

I was under the impression that the gestation period for homo sapiens is approximately nine months.

This unfortunate lady's fetus fell out after five.

Call it a miscarriage and get over it.

[andy750]

All this talk of babies dying prematurely....

Infant Mortality In USA Improves, But Still Compares Badly With Other Industrialized Nations

"Most statistics that come out of the USA reveal a nation with much more acute inequalities among social/ethnic groups, compared to the other industrialized nations. Even countries such as Slovenia, Lithuania, and Estonia are enjoying superior infant mortality rates (compared to the USA). In fact, if current trends continue, it will not be long before the USA slips further down, making way for several developing nations."

Taken from...with lots of statistics and graphs to show you that USA ranks last in Group E, second group from the bottom of the list....

Take care of your own countries babies before complaining about elsewhere.

[edbikerii]

Maybe it has something to do with calling premature babies fetuses instead of infants.

All this talk of babies dying prematurely....

Infant Mortality In USA Improves, But Still Compares Badly With Other Industrialized Nations

"Most statistics that come out of the USA reveal a nation with much more acute inequalities among social/ethnic groups, compared to the other industrialized nations. Even countries such as Slovenia, Lithuania, and Estonia are enjoying superior infant mortality rates (compared to the USA). In fact, if current trends continue, it will not be long before the USA slips further down, making way for several developing nations."

Taken from...with lots of statistics and graphs to show you that USA ranks last in Group E, second group from the bottom of the list....

Take care of your own countries babies before complaining about elsewhere.

[mark]

In fact, the medical guidelines for Health Service hospitals state that babies should not be given intensive care if they are born at less than 23 weeks.
The rules were endorsed by the British Association of Perinatal Medicine and are followed by NHS hospitals.

How about some 'personal responsibility' here?

Isn't that little 'gap in coverage' exactly the sort of thing that private insurance was created for?

[Retro Rocket]

My Father had a triple heart bypass about 20 years ago when he was 65. It's a big op; basically they cut you open from your throat down to your abs then cut the sternum and open up the ribs like a book. And that's just the start. Took about 8 hours. God only knows what that would have cost in the land of the free.
I don't know of people being refused care because they're too old - don't think it would ever happen. Even inveterate alcoholics are given liver transplants.

Just a comment on this, i had a liver transplant 10 years ago, not alcohol related, and i can guarantee you that alcoholics do NOT get liver or any transplants in Australia. If you had an alcohol problem years ago and had recovered and no longer drink, well thats a different matter. They won't even transplant you if you still smoke cigarettes, you have to be clean as a bell to get a transplant, there's just not enough organs to go around. As a matter of interest my transplant cost nothing, not a cent. I spent 12 hours on the table ans 12 months in hospital pre transplant, all free. My after care was also free and the government even put me in an apartment close to the hospital for 6 weeks because i lived 500 miles away from the hospital, all free. The last part of the story is that i get all my medication for $10 dollars a month, my immunosuppressants are the best you can get {tacrolimus} and i was even put on some very expensive "trial" drugs pre transplant that saved my life......all free. If we adopted Americas health care system i would move to New Zealand.....

Mick

[edbikerii]

"Didn't cost a cent"!!!!  Wow.  Amazing that all those doctors and nurses and orderlies and drug company employees and so on, and so on all WORKED FOR FREE?  Such spirit!!!  I'm really impressed.

So, now that we're awake, let's face the facts.  How did those employees get paid?  Where did the money come from?

As a matter of interest my transplant cost nothing, not a cent. I spent 12 hours on the table ans 12 months in hospital pre transplant, all free. My after care was also free and the government even put me in an apartment close to the hospital for 6 weeks because i lived 500 miles away from the hospital, all free. The last part of the story is that i get all my medication for $10 dollars a month, my immunosuppressants are the best you can get {tacrolimus} and i was even put on some very expensive "trial" drugs pre transplant that saved my life......all free. If we adopted Americas health care system i would move to New Zealand.....

Mick

[Retro Rocket]

"Didn't cost a cent"!!!!

I'll rewrite that just for you ED..."it didn't cost me a cent"..
You know very well what i meant......

Mick

[Pinhead]

And I believe you just made his point...

[masonryman]

Maybe it has something to do with capitalism, race,  and income

Maybe it has something to do with calling premature babies fetuses instead of infants.

All this talk of babies dying prematurely....

Infant Mortality In USA Improves, But Still Compares Badly With Other Industrialized Nations

"Most statistics that come out of the USA reveal a nation with much more acute inequalities among social/ethnic groups, compared to the other industrialized nations. Even countries such as Slovenia, Lithuania, and Estonia are enjoying superior infant mortality rates (compared to the USA). In fact, if current trends continue, it will not be long before the USA slips further down, making way for several developing nations."

Taken from...with lots of statistics and graphs to show you that USA ranks last in Group E, second group from the bottom of the list....

Take care of your own countries babies before complaining about elsewhere.

[edbikerii]

FTW!

"Didn't cost a cent"!!!!

I'll rewrite that just for you ED..."it didn't cost me a cent"..
You know very well what i meant......

Mick

[Retro Rocket]

You are a happy chap ED....     Well i suppose i did pay for it as i pay taxes, which are a some of the highest taxes for a western country, so i got value for my money. My point is that i would probably not be here at all if i lived in the US, not to mention the ridiculous prices you are forced to pay for medications.. Remember mate that this IS my experience and not some scaremongering rubbish. Try looking for something positive in change, i couldn't live in your country due to its health care policies.

Mick

[Inigo Montoya]

Mick, what is your tax rate there? Things such as sales tax and income tax?
Where I am at, I have a sales of 6.5% and income tax for federal is about 17% ballpark.
Now I pay $400 a month in insurance premiums. Do you think you pay $400 a month extra in taxes?
See I am for reform of insurance and I have my reasons which are just as right as the reasons of those against reform.
I just seriously doubt I would pay an extra $400 a month in taxes for a "socialized" healthcare.

I also figure that if a person does not use their coverage, that after a certain amount of time(a year, maybe less) we should get some of that money back.

[masonryman]

In Indiana  I pay 6.35 per hour worked, worked about 1900 hrs last year=12065.00 $800.00 deductable $5000.00 max co-pay, no wellness, I have been out of work about 3 months. It will lapse all together around March even if I go back to work. It will take 9 months of working steady to get it back

Mick, what is your tax rate there? Things such as sales tax and income tax?
Where I am at, I have a sales of 6.5% and income tax for federal is about 17% ballpark.
Now I pay $400 a month in insurance premiums. Do you think you pay $400 a month extra in taxes?
See I am for reform of insurance and I have my reasons which are just as right as the reasons of those against reform.
I just seriously doubt I would pay an extra $400 a month in taxes for a "socialized" healthcare.

I also figure that if a person does not use their coverage, that after a certain amount of time(a year, maybe less) we should get some of that money back.

[BobbyR]

Mick, what is your tax rate there? Things such as sales tax and income tax?
Where I am at, I have a sales of 6.5% and income tax for federal is about 17% ballpark.
Now I pay $400 a month in insurance premiums. Do you think you pay $400 a month extra in taxes?
See I am for reform of insurance and I have my reasons which are just as right as the reasons of those against reform.
I just seriously doubt I would pay an extra $400 a month in taxes for a "socialized" healthcare.

I also figure that if a person does not use their coverage, that after a certain amount of time(a year, maybe less) we should get some of that money back.

That is the point, would it matter to you if you were taxed $400 a month and had your Healthcare provided as Mick had, or would you rather pay it to an Insurance Company who would have bankrupted since a lot of what Mick was provided would not have been covered by a private Insurer.

[Retro Rocket]

We have a 10% GST {goods and services tax} and personal tax rates for wages, this is from 2005 but we have had increases since then.


Australia
   

0% to $6000
   

16.5% to $21 600
   

31.5% to $63 000
   

43.5% to $95  000
   

48.5% on $95 000+
             

USA#
   

10% to $9 724
   

15% to $39 563
   

25% to $95 844
   

28% to $199 992
   

33% to $434 814
   

35% on $434 814+

I wasn't trying to prove anything by posting in this thread, i just wanted to show that my experience with our health care system was excellent, i'm not saying its perfect but in recent years our previous government wanted to change it to a more American system, that contributed to its downfall. And like i said, if we had gone to a similar system i would not have been able to afford my health care. I should mention that on top of those taxes mentioned we have a medicare levy as well..

Mick

[Inigo Montoya]

Hard to say. I guess it depends on the system. A private insurance would probably work fine if a person did not have to get raped sideways with a fence pole wrapped in barbed wire.

[shacolaid]

To all, just some more random thoughts about what I have read.
Generally, we will recommend to the parents of an infant born at less than 24 weeks to allow the child to die because infants born at that gestation have severe long term morbitities. But, until you have held a 350gm infant in your hands, you can not say what you would or would not do. If the mother wants us to do everything that we can to save the infant, we will. 

Retro, glad to hear that your transplant went well. The Tacrolimus (FK506 was the research name) was developed and tested at the University of Pittsburgh by my father and his surgical research staff. Before FK506, cyclosporin was the drug of choice. When FK506 came along in the late 80s, it became our drug of choice for transplants at our center. BTW, as of 2007, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center performed the most transplants of anyone in the world.

[Retro Rocket]

To all, just some more random thoughts about what I have read.
Generally, we will recommend to the parents of an infant born at less than 24 weeks to allow the child to die because infants born at that gestation have severe long term morbitities. But, until you have held a 350gm infant in your hands, you can not say what you would or would not do. If the mother wants us to do everything that we can to save the infant, we will. 

Retro, glad to hear that your transplant went well. The Tacrolimus (FK506 was the research name) was developed and tested at the University of Pittsburgh by my father and his surgical research staff. Before FK506, cyclosporin was the drug of choice. When FK506 came along in the late 80s, it became our drug of choice for transplants at our center. BTW, as of 2007, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center performed the most transplants of anyone in the world.

Yes, FK506 was the only name it had when i started using it, and i will also say that i have had absolutely no problems with it at all, my transplant is working perfectly, 10 years out and my test results are perfect and i am only tested every 6 months. Cyclosporin seems to have more problems than Tacro, not sure why but that seems to be the case. If you are interested,  my transplant was done using the Rue or Roux method, i had no T tubes at all only drains and the liver was not only a perfect match it had the exact same vein structure as my own system so it was a straight "stitch up". My old liver stopped producing blood 2 days before i had my transplant, i was on whole units of blood,  they had pulled me from the list but because i was young they decided to risk it and 6 days later {after spending a year in hospital} i was out of hospital and i have only ever been back for tests, no problems at all. Sorry for the hijack but i don't find too many people that know anything about my experience....

Mick

[BobbyR]

To all, just some more random thoughts about what I have read.
Generally, we will recommend to the parents of an infant born at less than 24 weeks to allow the child to die because infants born at that gestation have severe long term morbitities. But, until you have held a 350gm infant in your hands, you can not say what you would or would not do. If the mother wants us to do everything that we can to save the infant, we will. 

My smarter Brother is an MD. His girlfriend is a Neonatologist. She often wondered if the extreme measures they were taking were in the best interest of the patients. Even if the outcome for survival is positibe. There is profoundly diminished quality of life issues during their lifetimes.

When serving on a Board of Education we had a child with no brain development above the medulla. The child was not a child, it was a body that could breathe and had a heartbeat. No vision, hearing, movement, or self awareness.
The Court order the child to be flown by Air Ambulance back and forth to upstate NY. It cost the District $145K.
When we met with the Parents, I asked if they would rather spend whatever short time they had close to home. they relented. They had to have their Lawyer petition the Court to get their own Child back from the "School". The body stooped functioning within the year.
How much could we have done with the $145K each year for 4 years. Sometime you should just let them go and trust in a loving God.

[Pinhead]

And there's the point... They got to choose instead of someone else making the decision for them like in the case of the premature birth in my previous post.

[edbikerii]

And let's not forget that the Liver Transplant surgery was developed in the United States, by Dr. Thomas Starzl of Denver, Colorado.  You probably would have been just fine if you had had your surgery here, my friend.

By the way, I'm happy that you are alive to tell us about your successful transplant, RR!

[BobbyR]

To all, just some more random thoughts about what I have read.
Generally, we will recommend to the parents of an infant born at less than 24 weeks to allow the child to die because infants born at that gestation have severe long term morbitities. But, until you have held a 350gm infant in your hands, you can not say what you would or would not do. If the mother wants us to do everything that we can to save the infant, we will. 

Retro, glad to hear that your transplant went well. The Tacrolimus (FK506 was the research name) was developed and tested at the University of Pittsburgh by my father and his surgical research staff. Before FK506, cyclosporin was the drug of choice. When FK506 came along in the late 80s, it became our drug of choice for transplants at our center. BTW, as of 2007, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center performed the most transplants of anyone in the world.

Yes, FK506 was the only name it had when i started using it, and i will also say that i have had absolutely no problems with it at all, my transplant is working perfectly, 10 years out and my test results are perfect and i am only tested every 6 months. Cyclosporin seems to have more problems than Tacro, not sure why but that seems to be the case. If you are interested,  my transplant was done using the Rue or Roux method, i had no T tubes at all only drains and the liver was not only a perfect match it had the exact same vein structure as my own system so it was a straight "stitch up". My old liver stopped producing blood 2 days before i had my transplant, i was on whole units of blood,  they had pulled me from the list but because i was young they decided to risk it and 6 days later {after spending a year in hospital} i was out of hospital and i have only ever been back for tests, no problems at all. Sorry for the hijack but i don't find too many people that know anything about my experience....

Mick

My Cousin had a liver transplant last year and he is doing very well, and I am glad you are also. A High School buddy had a Lung Transplant 5 years ago, it gave him 4 good years, but a bout of pneumonia did him in.