Topic: Health Care in England Question

[MickeyX]

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

Please take the time to let this video load and then watch it. I'm curious what both sides of the debate will have to add. Being on the inside of medicine and knowing how insurance really works behind the scenes, I'd like to see how many eyes are opened and how many choose to stay closed. 

(There is a full transcript below the video if it would make it easier for you and maybe take less time if your video loads as slow as it did for me.)

[demon78]

Interesting, Mickey, Interesting as a Canadian and an older one I know our health care is not perfect but every time my wife and have had to access it it was there for us my wife was diagnosed with melanoma by or our family doctor  (there was a delay getting the lab work done by two weeks, some one at the lab screwed up) when he got the reports back he phoned her at home and said there is a problem and I've booked you in for surgery at the regional health centre with a specialist can you be there in 3 days, they talked and it was decided because of work commitments it would be 10 days ten days later the melanoma was removed and 5 days after that the lab work came back Ok and since then if there is any problems she gets into see him or the specialist within days. My only #$%* about the cost is the $ 5.00 the hospital charges for parking. ( I'm being silly of course)
Bill the demon.

[edbikerii]

Funny, the multi-millionaire eats lunch off his "gold-plated plate and silverware", and he gets over-wrought with deep-seated liberal guilt due to his soaking up millions of dollars over his 15 years as the "head of corporate communications".

List of just some lies I noticed:

* He was the "head of corporate communications", but he pretends that his is upset about the un-insured, and didn't realize it for fifteen years.  Anybody want to buy a bridge?  His emotional appeal in Virginia left me un-convinced.  Of course, he opened and then closed with the emotional appeal, but nothing in between.
* He pushes the 47 million un-insured lie (check the census bureau - it's a lie, no matter how many times they push it).
* He talks about Medicare as though patients on Medicare are happy with government-run healthcare.  He ignores the fact that the vast majority of them are paying out of pocket for MediGap private insurance (I've posted it here before, go look it up).
* He talks about "talking points" as if the socialists didn't employ the same tactics.  Hell, his interview is great list of socialist talking points.
* He pushes the low-administrative costs for Medicare lie (check the administrative costs, per person it is higher than private insurance, but the payout costs are 6 times higher for Medicare for the same services, so the admin percentages seem smaller.
* He actually has the nerver to refer to Michael Moore's movies as though they had any credibility whatsoever.  Stupid people interviewed in Moore's movies keep insisting that "nobody pays", but they ignore that they are paying for it in their paychecks, at the gas pumps, and every time they buy anything, and every time they listen to the radio (RADIO TAXES for crying out loud - where does the stupidity end).
* He claims that insurance companies only "think about numbers".  Certainly, all business AND GOVERNMENT needs to think about numbers, since there's only so much money to go around.  When he says that insurance companies have to "jack up premiums" in order to offset the rapidly increasing cost of healthcare, how does he think the government will make that better?  We already know that existing government-run health care systems DO RATION.  They must, otherwise it would bankrupt the government.  We've seen the policies in NHS - I've posted it here several times already.  The only other way to cover those costs is to continually raise taxes.  We know what they do in the UK.  I don't think anybody wants it here, except those that don't pay taxes.
* The show knocks the claim that many of the "uninsured" choose to go uninsured.  Hey, HT aren't you "going nekkid"?

Again, the Democrats DO want to appear as "the generous protectors" of the people.  As I've been saying all along, it is with other people's money.  Remember the old line, "I'm from the government.  I want to help".

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

Please take the time to let this video load and then watch it. I'm curious what both sides of the debate will have to add. Being on the inside of medicine and knowing how insurance really works behind the scenes, I'd like to see how many eyes are opened and how many choose to stay closed. 

(There is a full transcript below the video if it would make it easier for you and maybe take less time if your video loads as slow as it did for me.)

[demon78]

Ed you know you might be more credible if you took time to figure out and understood the difference between communism-fascism- socialism it would mean that you finally read something, not parrotted internet or talking head propaganda and it might mean that you cared enough perhaps to actually check your sources, because frankly any thing you might say is truly suspect.
Bill the demon.

[BobbyR]

Bill, I looked at the video just now and you are a Poster Child for the effectiveness of spin Doctors like this guy. It makes you a know nothing, and sadly you are very proud of it. You pick the lamest quotes from SICKO, and if you had watched the film, they explain how this is paid for.

If you look at that outdoor clinic and I am sure that there are others, you cannot help but think that we are indeed falling into a third world status.

The man was telling you how he and others like him helped hijack Healthcare from the medical community and turn it into a Corporate windfall.

You talk about Death Panels, Cigna had a death panel which denied paying for a Liver Transplant for that young woman. It was not a Medical decision taking age, lifestyle, other conditions into account, it was their bottom line. They put price on her life, so that Stockbrokers could give Cigna a buy recommendation.  

What I saw was a man who did his job and judging by some posts here they were good at it. There are those that have a moment of truth, they see what they have been a part of, and a deep seated honesty takes over and they reexamine what they have done. When you are really in the Corporate World, there is no outside World, you have a job to do, and you do it well. Sometimes you take a look around and have a moment of truth. I once wrote a proposal which I thought was benign. I later met the Manager of a 25 person Department that had been wiped out and all were laid off. I felt real good about that, really good.

Anyone who can look at what this man had to say as an insider and not be appalled, has either no higher reasoning ability, compassion, or is a put on artist having sport with everyone else. I have not figured out which.

Mods you can take this one down also if you like.

[Frankenkit]

I second BobbyR.  I keep reading this thread looking for points that make real sense, and while they are here, they are few and far in between the seemingly infinite circular argument. I'd been hoping we were done with this kind of stuff once the incendiary election time was over and that thread removed, but sadly this was not so. Polarizing threads like this one are fundamentally divisive.  They contribute nothing to the titular concept of the forum as a whole except by strained links like "riders of SOHC/4 bikes may be involved in accidents and be unable to pay for their medical requirements". 

I suggest we leave this thread well enough alone and take our egos and opinions with us.

[edbikerii]

Obviously, YOU haven't watched Mickey's video.  I didn't quote Moore, THEY DID.  I didn't choose the most idiotic, insipid morons to say "nobody pays".  THEY DID.

So, why suddenly after 15 years of "head of corporate communications" and the extremely high salary that comes with it, is he suddenly claiming to be a humanitarian?  Two words: B.S.

I HAVE NEVER, EVER, SAID A WORD ABOUT "DEATH PANELS".  That is the most idiotic concept I've ever heard spewed about.  They don't exist, and they never could.  NOBODY IN GOVERNMENT WOULD EVER ACCEPT THE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR SITTING ON SUCH A PANEL.  Besides, there is no NEED for a "DEATH PANEL", when the RATIONING is BUILT RIGHT INTO EVERY PROVIDER'S TRAINING, as it is in NHS.  It is the RATIONING that causes people to die from cancers because the tests and chemotherapy have been delayed or denied to them.  Of course, the institutionalized thinking that supports stupidity like government controlled healthcare simply says, "eh, they probably would have died anyway".

But, let me get one thing straight.  You claim that you wrote a proposal that caused 25 people to get laid off, and you DIDN'T KNOW IT?  Yeah, "rub my brown eye", as Grandpa used to say.  I'll tell you what.   I had to personally lay off 10 people once because of some moron decision that was made by someone else who thought he knew what he was doing.  THAT DIDN'T FEEL GOOD.  They were good men with families, and the idiot who made the decision didn't know the first thing about what his decision entailed.  Sound familiar?  Congratulations.

Bill, I looked at the video just now and you are a Poster Child for the effectiveness of spin Doctors like this guy. It makes you a know nothing, and sadly you are very proud of it. You pick the lamest quotes from SICKO, and if you had watched the film, they explain how this is paid for.

If you look at that outdoor clinic and I am sure that there are others, you cannot help but think that we are indeed falling into a third world status.

The man was telling you how he and others like him helped hijack Healthcare from the medical community and turn it into a Corporate windfall.

You talk about Death Panels, Cigna had a death panel which denied paying for a Liver Transplant for that young woman. It was not a Medical decision taking age, lifestyle, other conditions into account, it was their bottom line. They put price on her life, so that Stockbrokers could give Cigna a buy recommendation.  

What I saw was a man who did his job and judging by some posts here they were good at it. There are those that have a moment of truth, they see what they have been a part of, and a deep seated honesty takes over and they reexamine what they have done. When you are really in the Corporate World, there is no outside World, you have a job to do, and you do it well. Sometimes you take a look around and have a moment of truth. I once wrote a proposal which I thought was benign. I later met the Manager of a 25 person Department that had been wiped out and all were laid off. I felt real good about that, really good.

Anyone who can look at what this man had to say as an insider and not be appalled, has either no higher reasoning ability, compassion, or is a put on artist having sport with everyone else. I have not figured out which.

Mods you can take this one down also if you like.

[edbikerii]

Right, Kit, so you figured you'd stand on your high-horse, and take one last shot at the same time.

I second BobbyR.  I keep reading this thread looking for points that make real sense, and while they are here, they are few and far in between the seemingly infinite circular argument. I'd been hoping we were done with this kind of stuff once the incendiary election time was over and that thread removed, but sadly this was not so. Polarizing threads like this one are fundamentally divisive.  They contribute nothing to the titular concept of the forum as a whole except by strained links like "riders of SOHC/4 bikes may be involved in accidents and be unable to pay for their medical requirements". 

I suggest we leave this thread well enough alone and take our egos and opinions with us.

[Frankenkit]

c'mon, Tonto, let's go. I'm not going to sit and argue with you any more, Ed.  It's an exercise in futility and I'd have thought that in so-and-so many pages people could see that.

[edbikerii]

You've never even started to argue rationally here.  When have you posted a single fact here?  I post source after source, including BBC articles, NIH Director's assessments, Census bureau statistics, Wall Street Journal articles, and you post some moron's animation about how "healthcare should be free".  Please.

c'mon, Tonto, let's go. I'm not going to sit and argue with you any more, Ed.  It's an exercise in futility and I'd have thought that in so-and-so many pages people could see that.

[MickeyX]

Ed doesn't get it because he lives in an ivory tower where the air is clean and the flowers bloom year 'round. Good for him. I wonder if he thinks about the guy who does his gardening for that ivory tower and the fact that he can't afford to go to the doctor...

Ed, you really are a parrot. Wow. 

[MickeyX]

[edbikerii]

I've gone over my "ivory tower" several times on this forum.  Perhaps you forget, or you would rather believe something that isn't true (surprise).

Ed doesn't get it because he lives in an ivory tower where the air is clean and the flowers bloom year 'round. Good for him. I wonder if he thinks about the guy who does his gardening for that ivory tower and the fact that he can't afford to go to the doctor...

Ed, you really are a parrot. Wow. 

[BobbyR]

But, let me get one thing straight.  You claim that you wrote a proposal that caused 25 people to get laid off, and you DIDN'T KNOW IT?  Yeah, "rub my brown eye", as Grandpa used to say.  I'll tell you what.   I had to personally lay off 10 people once because of some moron decision that was made by someone else who thought he knew what he was doing.  THAT DIDN'T FEEL GOOD.  They were good men with families, and the idiot who made the decision didn't know the first thing about what his decision entailed.  Sound familiar?  Congratulations.

Correct, I was a good Corporate guy and looked straight ahead. I learned from that mistake and spent the rest of my career analyzing how my decisions and proposals would affect people. I actually have gray eyes.

[MickeyX]

[Inigo Montoya]

Thats a pretty parrot mick!

[HavocTurbo]

I shall ask again....

I haven't been doing much research on it... but how does this differ from an HSA without the personal responsibility?

OK, now we seem to have a dialogue, rather than a series of monologues in two different themes

Have you looked at the proposal I posted in this thread earlier?  Here it is again, if you're truly open to thinking about alternatives (and it sounds like you are):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=55553.msg626068#msg626068  A key component of it is giving patients some control over how the money is spent, and on what.  If the patients have the option of spending their money on other healthcare items like their childrens' orthodontics, then perhaps the patients will exercise a little more care when visiting providers.  It is working well for many people right now.  I've read that patients in such systems are very happy with them.

Deductibles go up, but employers put the deductible amounts into medical savings accounts for the patients, so that the patients can save up for medical expenses that they deem worthwhile, like check-ups, prevention, maintenance, etc.  The insurance company is interested in avoiding the big payout things that will cause them to lose money, so they encourage the check-ups, etc.  Instead of visiting the Emergency Room for minor things like runny noses and sore throats, patients would be more likely to call their doctor, or visit a clinic, or call an 800 number for advice from a nurse practitioner.

Of course, I'm assuming that the proposal is not perfect, and I've asked for feedback.

[paulages]

i'll offer you a personal story. in the mid-nineties, one of my best friends, and roommate, started finding blood in her stool. she worked her ass off to care for her child and pay the bills, but couldn't afford health insurance. she finally saved enough money to go to a doctor and get checked out, and was diagnosed with colon cancer; only by the time they found it it had progressed to stage four. she was 26 when she died and left behind a two-year old daughter. she was otherwise healthy, working a barely-above-minimum-wage job, and came from a destitute family. she was trying to do better for herself and her daughter, but died before she could get there.

if you tell me that some bull#$%* "defense" budget (it was called the "war department" before WWII after all) was worth more than her life, then you can go eff yourself. you have the guts to live off the grid without any of the benefits of the infrastructure and really have "personal accountability," then i'll begin to respect your position. otherwise, you use the common wealth like the rest of us, you just disagree about how it should be used.

[MickeyX]

Well said, Paul.

[edbikerii]

First of all, "defense spending" arguments are totally under-water.  The defense spending over the past 10 years on Iraq doesn't hold a candle to the increased spending in Obama's budget which triples the national debt and does NOTHING to protect our nation's security.  In fact, the TARP bill alone COST 50% MORE THAN THE ENTIRE IRAQ WAR. Obama and his congressional democrat cronies have tripled the budget deficit in his first 100 days.  We have yet to see how much Afganistan will cost, too.

Secondly, your anecdote is very sad, that poor girl should not have died.  Why didn't she go to a doctor?  If she was earning minimum wage, she obviously qualified for Medicaid.

Your emotional argument tactics are very immature, and will lead to circular arguments again and again.  You see, you can pick out single, highly emotionally-charged cases, but for every one you pick, I can pick at least as many highly emotionally-charged cases of people who did not get the care they needed under NHS in time, or got their chemotherapy rationed, or simply were denied treatments because NHS is "still evaluating" a drug or a treatment that is commonly used in the United States.  Fact is, I'd rather present facts, and avoid the sneaky emotional appeals, even though there are plenty of emotional cases on both sides.

The reality is that there are over 11.5 MILLION CANCER SURVIVORS in the United States of America, and survival rates are rising every day in the US for even the most rare and and deadly cancers.  These increases in survival rates are unprecedented anywhere else in the world.

And once again, you are ignoring the alternatives that have been proposed.  You are again insistent upon a catastrophic socialist->communist->fascist government takeover rather than looking at proposals that might actually make our excellent-but-flawed, system better.  Why?

i'll offer you a personal story. in the mid-nineties, one of my best friends, and roommate, started finding blood in her stool. she worked her ass off to care for her child and pay the bills, but couldn't afford health insurance. she finally saved enough money to go to a doctor and get checked out, and was diagnosed with colon cancer; only by the time they found it it had progressed to stage four. she was 26 when she died and left behind a two-year old daughter. she was otherwise healthy, working a barely-above-minimum-wage job, and came from a destitute family. she was trying to do better for herself and her daughter, but died before she could get there.

if you tell me that some bull#$%* "defense" budget (it was called the "war department" before WWII after all) was worth more than her life, then you can go eff yourself. you have the guts to live off the grid without any of the benefits of the infrastructure and really have "personal accountability," then i'll begin to respect your position. otherwise, you use the common wealth like the rest of us, you just disagree about how it should be used.

[edbikerii]

I'm assuming that you are directing this question to me, since you quoted me in it.  If so, I'm not sure I understand your question.

Are you saying that having insurance is avoiding personal responsibility?  If so, I would argue quite the opposite.  At anytime, any one of us could develop a catastrophic medical condition that could exceed any of our personal resources.  That is why insurance exists, whether it is in private form or government form.  That helps spread the cost of a catastrophe out over a large base of premium-payers so we don't ALL have to save up for the worst case scenario in case of a health problem.

Does that address your question?

I shall ask again....

I haven't been doing much research on it... but how does this differ from an HSA without the personal responsibility?

OK, now we seem to have a dialogue, rather than a series of monologues in two different themes

Have you looked at the proposal I posted in this thread earlier?  Here it is again, if you're truly open to thinking about alternatives (and it sounds like you are):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=55553.msg626068#msg626068  A key component of it is giving patients some control over how the money is spent, and on what.  If the patients have the option of spending their money on other healthcare items like their childrens' orthodontics, then perhaps the patients will exercise a little more care when visiting providers.  It is working well for many people right now.  I've read that patients in such systems are very happy with them.

Deductibles go up, but employers put the deductible amounts into medical savings accounts for the patients, so that the patients can save up for medical expenses that they deem worthwhile, like check-ups, prevention, maintenance, etc.  The insurance company is interested in avoiding the big payout things that will cause them to lose money, so they encourage the check-ups, etc.  Instead of visiting the Emergency Room for minor things like runny noses and sore throats, patients would be more likely to call their doctor, or visit a clinic, or call an 800 number for advice from a nurse practitioner.

Of course, I'm assuming that the proposal is not perfect, and I've asked for feedback.

[masonryman]

ED said

"The reality is that there are over 11.5 MILLION CANCER SURVIVORS in the United States of America, and survival rates are rising every day in the US for even the most rare and and deadly cancers."

This only works if you can afford treatment, my mother died of cancer and reached her life time limit of 1,000,000 before she passed away

So for those of you preaching, self accountability do you have over $1,000,000 in cash and if you do would you want to spend every dime of it fighting for you life.

[edbikerii]

Obviously, I don't know the exact circumstances surrounding your mother's case.  I can say that I was sitting next to a guy who needed a $3 million stem cell transplant that had an excellent chance of treating his cancer.  He was upset that he wasn't getting scheduled for the treatment immediately.  Then the administrator explained the cost to him, and he sat down quietly, obviously worried.  His approval came back from his insurance company in 20 minutes.  I was impressed.

Also, you assume that the government plan would have covered expenses in excess of $1 million, but we know that rationing is rampant in government-run plans.

ED said

"The reality is that there are over 11.5 MILLION CANCER SURVIVORS in the United States of America, and survival rates are rising every day in the US for even the most rare and and deadly cancers."

This only works if you can afford treatment, my mother died of cancer and reached her life time limit of 1,000,000 before she passed away

So for those of you preaching, self accountability do you have over $1,000,000 in cash and if you do would you want to spend every dime of it fighting for you life.

[masonryman]

I have never said I am for government health care, I am for a system that works for the people not one that enslaves the people most of us are being held hostage by the very system your promoting

[edbikerii]

Have you even read my suggestions?  You have not commented on them, but I have posted them at least four times now.

But since you are being argumentative, I believe that government-run healthcare enslaves people, whereas free-market gives people choice.

I have never said I am for government health care, I am for a system that works for the people not one that enslaves the people most of us are being held hostage by the very system your promoting