Topic: Health Care in England Question

[edbikerii]

"Just a basic world-view difference"?

The difference is that hard-working Americans go to jail if they don't pay the taxes that the government forces them to pay.  Where's the empathy and concern for the hard-working American?

One side of this "world-view difference" believes that people should take some responsibility for themselves and for the success of their nation and work hard to get ahead and improve things.  They believe that the People should have CHOICES and FREEDOM to pursue their aspirations without their own government trying to keep them down with excessive taxation and remove their FREEDOM through government mandates and bureaucracies.  They believe in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Not excessive taxation which amounts to forced slavery in order to fund vote-buying, power-grabbing, programs for socialists.

The best the other side can come up with is, "eh, it's cheaper to just give it away"?

At what point do we, the lowly taxpayers, have the gall to ask welfare recipients to take a little responsibility for their own lives?  Ironic, isn't it, that if we fail to pay taxes on money we've earned through our hard work, that the government will promptly jail us, but welfare recipients are not even asked to control their eating habits.

Then, there are some that have the nerve to say that we, the hard-working taxpayers who are bearing all of the burden in our society, are being selfish by not wanting to be taxed even more.  Ridiculous.

There's the point. It's always that point. Personal responsibility. The fact is people will overeat, shoot drugs, ride motorcycles, jump off bridges into shallow water, smoke, etc, etc, etc.

The difference is in whether to punish folks for this behavior punitively by, say, letting them die, go homeless, end up in jail - or treating their stupidity in the most cost advantageous way assuming that there will ALWAYS be folks making dumb decisions. That's just a basic world-view difference and it's probably not reconcilable here or in congress currently.

[ev0lve]

"Just a basic world-view difference"?

The difference is that hard-working Americans go to jail if they don't pay the taxes that the government forces them to pay.  Where's the empathy and concern for the hard-working American?

One side of this "world-view difference" believes that people should take some responsibility for themselves and for the success of their nation and work hard to get ahead and improve things.  They believe that the People should have CHOICES and FREEDOM to pursue their aspirations without their own government trying to keep them down with excessive taxation and remove their FREEDOM through government mandates and bureaucracies.  They believe in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Not excessive taxation which amounts to forced slavery in order to fund vote-buying, power-grabbing, programs for socialists.

The best the other side can come up with is, "eh, it's cheaper to just give it away"?

At what point do we, the lowly taxpayers, have the gall to ask welfare recipients to take a little responsibility for their own lives?  Ironic, isn't it, that if we fail to pay taxes on money we've earned through our hard work, that the government will promptly jail us, but welfare recipients are not even asked to control their eating habits.

Then, there are some that have the nerve to say that we, the hard-working taxpayers who are bearing all of the burden in our society, are being selfish by not wanting to be taxed even more.  Ridiculous.

There's the point. It's always that point. Personal responsibility. The fact is people will overeat, shoot drugs, ride motorcycles, jump off bridges into shallow water, smoke, etc, etc, etc.

The difference is in whether to punish folks for this behavior punitively by, say, letting them die, go homeless, end up in jail - or treating their stupidity in the most cost advantageous way assuming that there will ALWAYS be folks making dumb decisions. That's just a basic world-view difference and it's probably not reconcilable here or in congress currently.

I don't think you can say it any clearer than that Ed. There is no compromise on that position and since I've been posting here you never have. It's not particularly helpful in this debate but - respect.

[Ecosse]

i hope everyone takes a moment to watch ed's you tube post in its entirety.

ultimately, few disagree that the system is broken and that we'd all like to see every citizen have quality health care. the devil is, of course, in the details and i think rational people will ultimately come together on this and other issues. but i don't think most people consider this a crisis worthy of rushing a bill through so fast we can't review it. isn't that what happened with that hugely successful stimulus package?

i am curious, who here believes in their heart that completely doing away with what we have and going to a system that clearly, and at best, is at least as flawed as what we have now, but with the distinction of handing over more control to the fed? one area we all tend to agree on is distrust of the government. why hand over health care decisions to the fed but take to the streets over abortion? what's the difference?

isn't anyone, regardless of political stripe just a bit peeved the d.c. stooges have been trying to ram through this bill? don't answer my question but ponder to your self, what would be your reaction to all this if it was gw bush's admin. doing this?

i have not lost sight there are a number of gop who have failed all of us too. elitism knows no partisan boundaries.  

[edbikerii]

Compromise?  Are you kidding?  Last I checked the only one getting compromised is the American taxpayer.

The American taxpayer pays more than 50% of their hard-earned salary in taxes of one form or another (income tax, property tax, school tax, sales tax, FCC charges, "Universal cellular phone fees", gas tax, luxury tax, cigarette tax, fat tax, etc., etc., etc., until you're blue in the face).  What does the other side have to offer to the American taxpayer?

All I've asked for in this thread is that the government fix the three broken systems that we ALREADY PAY FOR.

So how do you propose a compromise?  What does the other side have to offer?

I don't think you can say it any clearer than that Ed. There is no compromise on that position and since I've been posting here you never have. It's not particularly helpful in this debate but - respect.

[HavocTurbo]

You realize that you ARE the american taxpayer?

C'mon ED. Fixing a broken system is great. We'd all love to do it. I for one agree with you. Take what we have and try to fix it.

But think about it for a second.... You are #$%*ing and moaning about more taxes. What do you think fixing these broken systems is gonna do? Be cheaper? I think not. You know that some stuffed shirt is going to want a boatload for his company, or for his charity or for his "fund" to get the job done.

Seems to me that your conversation has gone far beyond healthcare, and started to border on the liquidation of all politicans in general.

I'd agree with that.

[BobbyR]

Here the complete film "SICKO" it speaks for itself. I will not defend it or answer any comments on it. You decide for yourself.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6646340600856118396&ei=Zr14SsLWLoLrlQfs1fxr&q=Sicko&hl=en

[edbikerii]

Just in case anyone isn't aware, BobbyR has posted "Sicko", one of Michael Moore's pseudo-documentaries.

Mr. Moore is the same guy who made the movie "Bowling for Columbine", which advocated gun control, but whose bodyguard was then arrested at Kennedy Airport for gun possession while protecting Mr. Moore.

The man is a hipocrite, and a sensationalist, who appeals to people's emotions, rather than to logic, in order to generate huge profits on his movies.

Mr. Moore's emotionally charged, logically lacking movies have earned him several hundred million dollars in box office sales, and more in DVD and cable revenues, too.

Even the very first narrated paragraph of the movie, in which Moore claims that there are 50 million uninsured in America, was a lie, according to the US Census Bureau.

Enjoy.

Here the complete film it speaks for itself. I will not defend it or answer any comments on it. You decide for yourself.

[I have deleted the link to the movie from my reply, lest Mr. Moore attempt to sue me for copyright violation, and lost revenue]

[BobbyR]

Posting updated and identified. No comment.

[edbikerii]

Have a look at John Stossel's 20/20 "Sick in America".  Stossel is much less biased than Moore.  He covers both sides of the issue quite well, and he compares the US, Canada and the UK systems:

http://www.guba.com/watch/3000089057

Hey, if you liked getting that unbiased report, then check out John Stossel's expose on Michael Moore's SiCKO Cuba claims:

[BobbyR]

No Comment

[demon78]

Propaganda ED propaganda.
Bill the demon.

[BobbyR]

The CNN experts analysis of the accuracy of the film and some stats from other Nations.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/28/sicko.fact.check/index.html

[demon78]

Interesting Bobby.
Bill the demon.

[DammitDan]

Have a look at John Stossel's 20/20 "Sick in America".  Stossel is much less biased than Moore.  He covers both sides of the issue quite well, and he compares the US, Canada and the UK systems:
...
Hey, if you liked getting that unbiased report, then check out John Stossel's expose on Michael Moore's SiCKO Cuba claims:
...

Totally unbiased reports, huh...

Did you listen to the way the John Stossel is talking?  During his entire "expose" his lilting speech pattern suggests inflammatory condescension and acerbity (notice how when he hits on something he considers damning he speaks as though he's speaking to a child?).  This is the way someone who is trying to hammer a point across speaks (e.g. due to a bias or agenda).  Ever been to a public debate?  It's PR 101, man.

[Spanner 1]

Apparently, the World Health Organisation ( they might know something ), rate the United States as #30 something in healthcare of it's populace...with #1 being the best...........Sometimes fact overrides fiction and political argument.

[edbikerii]

These idiots (World Health Organization) rate the US below Dominica, Colombia, Morocco, and Chile.  If you believe any of that, I've got a bridge to sell you in downtown Manhattan (it leads to Brooklyn).

The WHO was CREATED for political argument.

Check it out for yourself:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Apparently, the World Health Organisation ( they might know something ), rate the United States as #30 something in healthcare of it's populace...with #1 being the best...........Sometimes fact overrides fiction and political argument.

[edbikerii]

That's an excellent article, too, Bobby!  Funny how the author claims that, "for the most part" somewhere between 41 and 44 is the same as 50.  Please read this article as an excellent example of the kind of distorted logic people will throw at you when they are trying to convince you of something that they believe in strongly, even though it isn't even accurate within 20%.  The author then goes on to state that 15% of Americans are uninsured, using the same filthy lie that Moore threw at us (50 Million).  He neglects to mention that 10-12 Million of those 41-44 million are illegal immigrants, thus not American.

Note also that the author continually quotes WHO statistics.  This is the same organization who declared the swine flu a "world-wide pandemic" exactly as Obama pushed for his health care "reform".  Does anybody out there think this is a coincidence?  I sure don't.

The CNN experts analysis of the accuracy of the film and some stats from other Nations.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/28/sicko.fact.check/index.html

[Spanner 1]

Swine Flu is pandemic.....or is it pandemic only in the US ?

[DammitDan]

These idiots (World Health Organization) rate the US below Dominica, Colombia, Morocco, and Chile.  If you believe any of that, I've got a bridge to sell you in downtown Manhattan (it leads to Brooklyn).

The WHO was CREATED for political argument.

Check it out for yourself:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Seen any black helicopters lately, Ed?

[BeSeeingYou]

Remember anyone or any organization that conflicts with or disagrees with ed's conservative viewpoint is either stupid, biased, or a partisan attack.

Now we have this conservative angry mob mentality at town hall meetings about healthcare.  A vocal angry minority yells and screams and disrupts meetings where people meet their elected officials for some Q and A.  The tactic has been used before in the 1920's and 30's in Germany by the SA (Brownshirts).  They lost the election, they are a fringe minority, and yet somehow they feel that their country has been stolen from THEM. 

[demon78]

Yeah Srust50, being old enough to remember some of it, Ed's diatribes smack of Joseph Goebbels and the Big Lie, I thought the majority of the world fought a major war to destroy in part that political ploy.
Bill the demon.

[edbikerii]

Well, here we go again.  I present you with facts, you resort to name calling and personal attacks.

Now you sink so low as to try to compare standing up for the American taxpayer with the Nazi party.  You guys are a joke.

For the record, the Nazi party's official name was "National Socialist German Worker's Party".

Hmmmm.... Let's see......  anybody here believe I'm a socialist?

[Bob Wessner]

I'm seeing some questionble rhetoric on both sides of this issue. Let's stick to presenting views, opinions, ideas but without denigration.

[Inigo Montoya]

Well ed, here is the issue. YOU see what you post as facts. Problem is, they are only facts as the writer puts them in his opinion. What you see as an attack is what others see as being fact.

So why is what you post the only "facts" and what everyone else posts, attacks and garbage? Because you don't believe it? That does not automatically makes something untrue. Yet you do exactly what you yell at others for doing, you perform attacks blatantly and then you wonder why no one believes you.

I know you feel like the only person that sees all the obama and democrat evil but most see you as a loony who would blindly follow the extreme right straight into the sun.
I will not argue political junk with you as after seeing a couple recent political posts, I know you will never change your mind even if you were given evidence by God himself that you were wrong, so there is no point in it.
I am merely pointing out an observation. A little less wing flapping and sabre rattling on your part followed by less blatantly biased sources would probably help you.

I am waiting for your insults, as I KNOW they will come in some form. You are if nothing else, reliable on that.

[BobbyR]

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