Topic: Health Care in England Question

[masonryman]

It's hard to keep up with, we changed insurance carriers in the middle of that claim so our in network out of network providers changed and UHC is still tweaking our coverage on a quarterly basis. I have about 50 pages of addendum's so far

I will check

[edbikerii]

My deductible:  $0.  My monthly premium is $84.  I don't know exactly what my employer pays.  I opted for the plan that only covers 50% of any out-of-network expenses so that my premiums would not rise to over $200 per month.  I'm lucky, I guess, that I don't have any need to go out of network.

It is truly hilarious that you think I "live in an ivory tower".  I struggled and fought my way just to get where I am now, and I still don't qualify as "rich" - not even under Obama's definition.  I suspect that you, as a mason, earn more than I do.  I'm quite sure that if you were in the NYC tri-state area you would.  I'm always dumbfounded when I hire any home improvement contractor that I'm paying them more than I earn, per hour.  Hell, even my landscaper makes more than I do per hour.

But, I have good insurance.  That is part of a tradeoff that I chose when I decided to work at my job.  Running my own business and taking care of all the bull#$%* government paperwork, payroll taxes, insurance regulations, etc. was such a pain in the ass that it just made more sense to shut down and go back to the office.  Oh yeah, my accountant and my lawyer make more per hour than I do, too.  They were getting rich off all the government bull#$%*, too.

I have United health care, quarterly payments are $2400.00 that is 2 hundred per week the average person in my group pays $6.35 an hour worked

in network deductible......$600,
out of network deductible ....$1200.00
max out of pocket, in net work $5000.00, out net work $10,000.00

It cost me $375.00 out of pocket for my daughters to get their sports/school physicals, and I am still paying on the gymnastics ending back injury from 2 years ago,the older daughter had a stress fracture in L-1 and L2, the only therapist with in driving distance was out of network

So ed you can live in your ivory tower and eat peaches and cream for 3 meals a day, but don't try to tell me I have chicken salad when it is really chicken #$%*.

And.. I am glad for those of you who get to keep your insurance when you retire, or are capabable of working till you are 65 or 67 till mediacare kicks in, but most in my world don't make it that long and then you are just with out. With out income and with out ins.

[Inigo Montoya]

Are you sure THEY make more per hour or that the COMPANY makes more? Having worked construction, I can tell you they do not all get paid that great but the company makes a lot. But much of that money is spent on upkeep of equipment and tools. They are not just slapping some brick down that magically appears. There are saws and other special tools used. Then you have the truck and trailer required to haul them around.
It is much different than you bank job. You go there and they provide meager supplies that are cheap. You main expense is probably your computer which is bought new and used a few years and then cycled to a lesser position. Compared to tools, especially power tools, computers are cheap. Even the average server is cheap. If masonryman is doing it all on his own, that makes his costs that much harder to juggle.

[Cvillechopper]

Are you sure THEY make more per hour or that the COMPANY makes more? Having worked construction, I can tell you they do not all get paid that great but the company makes a lot. But much of that money is spent on upkeep of equipment and tools. They are not just slapping some brick down that magically appears. There are saws and other special tools used. Then you have the truck and trailer required to haul them around.
It is much different than you bank job. You go there and they provide meager supplies that are cheap. You main expense is probably your computer which is bought new and used a few years and then cycled to a lesser position. Compared to tools, especially power tools, computers are cheap. Even the average server is cheap. If masonryman is doing it all on his own, that makes his costs that much harder to juggle.

This is a great example of what limited information combined with wide-spread generalizations creates.  Have you ever run a bank, hospital, etc?  No, you haven't.  How do I know that?  Because you exhibit a fundamental lack of understanding on what contributes to the cost of running that business.  Please just stop spouting off whatever comes to your mind at the time and think about what you are going to write, do some research, correct most of what you were going to write, do some more research (not 2 minutes googling), fix the rest of what you were going to write, then post.  It will save others from having to correct the ignorant statements you continue to make. 

I don't usually react with such personal statements but you are one of the worst offenders I've seen on here.  Try looking for factual information before you post again.  Just try it once, please.

[Inigo Montoya]

So what is your malfunction cville? I HAVE worked in a bank. I worked in corporate credit cards. The average worked does not get anything special. but maybe that was just USbank that did all this. Course the airline I worked for operated the same way, but then there is a reason they went belly up a few years back.
So are you saying all construction workers make killer wages? I mean that is kinda what it sounds like.
I also noticed while you attacked me on it, you did not bother to post ANYTHING contradicting it. So while you try to accuse me of google, you didn't even bother to spend the time doing that. Lazy are we this morning?

Of course there are operating cost to every business but I was referring to UPKEEP. I will admit to maybe being somewhat vague on it but I am still correct on how a construction company works, at least in the midwest anyways. Maybe other areas do it different.
Regardless, I did not warrant that #$%* you slung at me.

[Cvillechopper]

There is much more "upkeep" to running a bank than buying computers.  I should have made my rebuttal more clear.  I am not taking issue with your statement about worker's wages.  I am pointing out that you have no knowledge about what it takes to keep a bank running, the ongoing costs associated with that business.  You speak as though the bank has only to buy computers and they are making pure profit after that. 

I didn't offer something to contradict you because I was hoping you'd actually do some research before posting another rant.  You say you "may be a bit vague" but I would say that you are completely uninformed and won't admit it (or don't even realize how little you know about the business you mentioned). 

An argument that takes one point and adds on many more incorrect facts looses all credibility.  I am only trying to help you make more concise, defensible arguments.  So far I have yet to see one that was well thought out, clearly worded, and not emotional in nature.   

Further, you did not even bother to understand what was being stated before your replied.  Ed said the home improvement CONTRACTOR then mentioned landscaper.  In context he clearly meant the business owner, not the laborer.  Your reply was an attempt to refute something that was not said making it all the more sad.  Slow down.  One of the best quotes (can't remember from where it came) is "Seek first to understand, then to be understood."

[edbikerii]

I don't work in a bank.  I'm in brokerage.  I'd have to say that our number one expense is probably compliance with all the regulations.  We hire programmers, attorneys, consultants, auditors, in-house accounting staff (our "finance" dept is bigger than the entire software development group), etc.  All so that we can demonstrate that we comply with the massive regulations that the government has placed on our business.

Then I hear that the SEC can't even catch Bernie Madoff.  This guy managed $50 BILLION in "investment accounts", yet he NEVER PLACED A SINGLE TRADE.  Only the government could completely miss such blatant violations.  Plus, there were TWO SEPARATE WHISTLE-BLOWERS who contacted the SEC, yet they still managed to miss it.  This is not who should be running our health-care.

There is much more "upkeep" to running a bank than buying computers.  I should have made my rebuttal more clear.  I am not taking issue with your statement about worker's wages.  I am pointing out that you have no knowledge about what it takes to keep a bank running, the ongoing costs associated with that business.  You speak as though the bank has only to buy computers and they are making pure profit after that.  

I didn't offer something to contradict you because I was hoping you'd actually do some research before posting another rant.  You say you "may be a bit vague" but I would say that you are completely uninformed and won't admit it (or don't even realize how little you know about the business you mentioned).  

An argument that takes one point and adds on many more incorrect facts looses all credibility.  I am only trying to help you make more concise, defensible arguments.  So far I have yet to see one that was well thought out, clearly worded, and not emotional in nature.  

Further, you did not even bother to understand what was being stated before your replied.  Ed said the home improvement CONTRACTOR then mentioned landscaper.  In context he clearly meant the business owner, not the laborer.  Your reply was an attempt to refute something that was not said making it all the more sad.  Slow down.  One of the best quotes (can't remember from where it came) is "Seek first to understand, then to be understood."

[mark]

dang. Ed's right.

The SEC should definitely not be running health care.

[Inigo Montoya]

I tried to simplify my last post too much. My basic point is that there is a lot of upkeep cost in construction. They have to do this if they want to work at all. the better companies will charge more but then on average will have better equipment and do better work. Not always of course but most of the time. I apologize for my poorly written pass post. At least I can freely admit my mistakes to everyone unlike some.

But I am sure cville is informed of everything under the sun right?

Where was the research here?

60 million is a gross exaggeration according to census reports.  20 million is a small fraction of the total population.

Considering the latest number in 2008 was 46.6 million. not trying to be a dick here, just showing that no one makes the perfect statement.

[Cvillechopper]

Understood and accepted as I think you meant it.  My statement was referencing the same data but i should have clarified that the 20 million are those that do not have insurance and are below the federal poverty qualification.  The higher number takes into account those that are not below that limit and choose not to purchase insurance.  I will make sure to qualify any numbers I quote going forward. 

Never have I claimed to know everything but I am actually a professional in the industry involved in the current discussions.  I am also a believer in the search for a truth by means of a Platonic approach (technically Socratic method but Plato was the one that wrote it and many believe that he actually created the method using Socrates's name as a way to validate the approach).  In this approach you must be able to argue your point in such a way that it holds up under scrutiny by an opposing party.  When you can't you should either re-visit your base construct for inconsistencies or admit that the point may not be logically valid, even if an opposing point is not considered completely valid either.  Lack of defense does not prove the opposing view, it only disproves the indefensible view.

[Inigo Montoya]

One problem is that some of these posts move so fast, there is little time for the proper research. Sure you can still do it but by the time it is there, is it relevant to the current conversation? many times not, given the hijacks and all. There are topics that end up hijacked in less than 5 posts. These political ones bounce around so bad it can be quite difficult to stay on top of them. besides that, not all info is readily available, indeed some is not available at all. For example, we know there are a lot of costs involved with each business but some are more efficient than others. Also, most of these businesses do not post their operating costs for general consumption. I am sure some do but most I suspect do not. So really I could not post exact costs associated as that would be false because it would only apply to that particular business. As such, much of the info ends up being generalized for lack of in depth documentation.
Also, searching things out on the internet is a double edged blade. Much of what you find is NOT correct anyways or is outdated.

[masonryman]

ED

I seriously doubt that I make more an hour than you do for the simple fact that in the masonry world, which I am slowly backing a away from, as a union employee I make about $42.00 total package with $28.00 on the check and another $2.00 for foreman pay, depending on the contrator field management may get a small bonus. The contractor is going to put about 25% on that for overhead and profit keeping in mind that the average Union construction worker NEVER gets over time and only averages working about 1800 hr per year and drives over an hour one way to work.

Now considering what you said you pay for insurance you can add about $5.00 per hour just in insurance and what about matching contributions by said employer and other perks such as paid vacations and sick days (we get non of either)

 If you ran your own business you know all of this, so quit bustin my balls because you think I should have to do with out because I didn't choose the same path as you.

 I just want reasonable service for what I pay for and not be held hostage by corprate America

I am building a fireplace next week, I'll post pics of what you can get for $2500.00 in Indiana and that is including material

Mark

[edbikerii]

Yeah, $2500 for a masonry fireplace in Indiana is quite a bit different than in NY.  Three years ago I paid more than $10K for a gas fireplace with a simple wood mantle and about 50 simple brick veneers installed in my home.  Apparently contractors here make quite a bit more than they do in Indiana.  But once again, I live here, not in Indiana, so why don't we keep apples with apples, shall we?  My contractors (licensed, insured, no illegals, etc.) absolutely made more than I do on an hourly basis.

Also, contractors don't need to go to college or graduate school to maintain their jobs, either, so they don't have student loan expenses, etc.  They didn't have to attend night school for nearly ten years while working full time just so they could justify their jobs.

So, here's a big old "quit bustin' my balls" right back at ya.

ED

I seriously doubt that I make more an hour than you do for the simple fact that in the masonry world, which I am slowly backing a away from, as a union employee I make about $42.00 total package with $28.00 on the check and another $2.00 for foreman pay, depending on the contrator field management may get a small bonus. The contractor is going to put about 25% on that for overhead and profit keeping in mind that the average Union construction worker NEVER gets over time and only averages working about 1800 hr per year and drives over an hour one way to work.

Now considering what you said you pay for insurance you can add about $5.00 per hour just in insurance and what about matching contributions by said employer and other perks such as paid vacations and sick days (we get non of either)

 If you ran your own business you know all of this, so quit bustin my balls because you think I should have to do with out because I didn't choose the same path as you.

 I just want reasonable service for what I pay for and not be held hostage by corprate America

I am building a fireplace next week, I'll post pics of what you can get for $2500.00 in Indiana and that is including material

Mark

[masonryman]

.... and let's not forget, if someone changes their mind I don't get paid, if their not happy, I don't get paid. If it rains, snows, work get slow, I happen to catch up with the contractor in front of me........ you guessed it I don't get paid.

It's not like I am bitter or anything

[edbikerii]

Right, financial services companies don't have layoffs, huh?

.... and let's not forget, if someone changes their mind I don't get paid, if their not happy, I don't get paid. If it rains, snows, work get slow, I happen to catch up with the contractor in front of me........ you guessed it I don't get paid.

It's not like I am bitter or anything

[masonryman]

Now your quick to call one out so here goes, the education thing is bull#$%*.

ALL SKILLED union construction workers in this country are required by law to serve an apprenticeship program or prove they have an equivalent  education.

The apprenticeship standards are pre apprenticeship training of 16 weeks, no pay, a 5 year on the job training starting out at 45% of journeyman's scale and it includes 1800 hours of class room training, and if you are not carrying your weight you will be removed from the program. A contractor can choose to work a certain apprentice, if they choose not to you sit home. If you don't work you don't advance, no insurance, no pay

[masonryman]

When is the last time you sat for 4 months waiting for your next assignment?

Right, financial services companies don't have layoffs, huh?

.... and let's not forget, if someone changes their mind I don't get paid, if their not happy, I don't get paid. If it rains, snows, work get slow, I happen to catch up with the contractor in front of me........ you guessed it I don't get paid.

It's not like I am bitter or anything

[masonryman]

And most of this has nothing to do with the fact that,  you gave up and went back to work for an employer that provides your insurance...

You don't give a #$%* if anyone else on the planet has health care insurance or not... as long as you don't have to contribute.

[Retro Rocket]

Hi Masonary man,i agree 100% with what you say about your work outcomes. I have worked in and around the building industry most of my life and we generally have more days off than the "average " worker, that is a FACT. Now i know what ED is saying

When is the last time you sat for 4 months waiting for your next assignment?

but that can be said for tradies and building workers as well. The building industry is  effected by more "outsideforces" than just about any other job. We get paid pretty well in Aus as tradies and labourers {labourers get around 200+dollars a day} but there is no overtime, {beers after work don't count} and when you factor in the weather, other tradies in your way, material deliveries, and many more factors including the current downturn, we don't have it so good. In summer here we can go for 3-4 weeks without picking up a tool and this can happen more than once, high winds and our famous thunder storms and it can be bloody hard just trying to pay the bills. Just thought i would throw this in as i don't think a lot of people know just how hard it can be.

Mick

[masonryman]

I love being a Mason and I have done very well but after 23 years, I'm tired.

[edbikerii]

so let me get this straight.  You're saying that an apprenticeship, which by your own admission, is PAID at 45% of regular journeyman's scale, is equivalent to taking out student loans and paying tuition for four years while you CAN'T work because you're in school full-time?

Think about it.

Now your quick to call one out so here goes, the education thing is bull#$%*.

ALL SKILLED union construction workers in this country are required by law to serve an apprenticeship program or prove they have an equivalent  education.

The apprenticeship standards are pre apprenticeship training of 16 weeks, no pay, a 5 year on the job training starting out at 45% of journeyman's scale and it includes 1800 hours of class room training, and if you are not carrying your weight you will be removed from the program. A contractor can choose to work a certain apprentice, if they choose not to you sit home. If you don't work you don't advance, no insurance, no pay

[masonryman]

What is full time school these day 15-17 hour a week? there are a lot of hours left

I have 2 girls in school both 3 sport athletes and both work one is a hostess and makes more than a first year apprentice with tips

[edbikerii]

See, this is right where you crazy liberals argument falls apart.  I AM CONTRIBUTING.  I'm paying premiums, and my employer is paying premiums and paying me a lower salary in return.

I'm not saying I don't want to contribute.  That's somebody else on this thread.  Not me.  Remember?

I'm saying that I want to continue getting quality healthcare for what I'm contributing.  I pay for it.  I deserve it.  I work hard for it.  I don't want to pay MORE for LESS under government-controlled health care.

Most importantly, if you think you'll get a break under ObamaCare, you're friggin' nuts.  Your employment and payroll tax contributions will certainly exceed your current health insurance premiums.  The bill that made it out of committee today is already at nearly $900 BILLION.  THAT IS ALL DEFICIT SPENDING UNTIL THE TAXES INCREASE TO PAY FOR IT.

Don't you get it?  You're an employer, so you're part of the problem as Obama and his crew see it.  You're not big enough to matter to them, unlike Goldman Sachs and his other big contributors.

And most of this has nothing to do with the fact that,  you gave up and went back to work for an employer that provides your insurance...

You don't give a #$%* if anyone else on the planet has health care insurance or not... as long as you don't have to contribute.

[masonryman]

non of it really matters to me, I won't be going back to my union job anytime soon. I have not seen a statment for a while but my insurance will lapse somtime in the next year, then I just won't have any and that won't do anyone any good.

If your not working steady you can't pay $2400 a quarter for insurance.
 

[BobbyR]

See, this is right where you crazy liberals argument falls apart.  I AM CONTRIBUTING.  I'm paying premiums, and my employer is paying premiums and paying me a lower salary in return.

I'm not saying I don't want to contribute.  That's somebody else on this thread.  Not me.  Remember?

I'm saying that I want to continue getting quality healthcare for what I'm contributing.  I pay for it.  I deserve it.  I work hard for it.  I don't want to pay MORE for LESS under government-controlled health care.

Most importantly, if you think you'll get a break under ObamaCare, you're friggin' nuts.  Your employment and payroll tax contributions will certainly exceed your current health insurance premiums.  The bill that made it out of committee today is already at nearly $900 BILLION.  THAT IS ALL DEFICIT SPENDING UNTIL THE TAXES INCREASE TO PAY FOR IT.

Don't you get it?  You're an employer, so you're part of the problem as Obama and his crew see it.  You're not big enough to matter to them, unlike Goldman Sachs and his other big contributors.

And most of this has nothing to do with the fact that,  you gave up and went back to work for an employer that provides your insurance...

You don't give a #$%* if anyone else on the planet has health care insurance or not... as long as you don't have to contribute.

Ed, I would suggest that tomorrow when you walk into work you kiss your management square on the mouth and drop trousers if it makes them happy, to keep that job. $85.00 a month is peanuts. They must be making a amazing contribution way above industry standards for the coverage you describe. I just got a notice that I will now have to make a retro payment back to August 1 since the benevolent United Healthcare bought my current provider and bumped up the rates. You are living in a bubble compared to the rest of us. If you lose that gig, you are gonna want to cut your wrists.