Topic: Health Care in England Question

[edbikerii]

Right Bobby, and you should walk into the nearest congressional representative's office and do exactly the same.  That's what you'll be doing under penalty of imprisonment when you find the new taxes worse than your health insurance premiums. 

See, this is right where you crazy liberals argument falls apart.  I AM CONTRIBUTING.  I'm paying premiums, and my employer is paying premiums and paying me a lower salary in return.

I'm not saying I don't want to contribute.  That's somebody else on this thread.  Not me.  Remember?

I'm saying that I want to continue getting quality healthcare for what I'm contributing.  I pay for it.  I deserve it.  I work hard for it.  I don't want to pay MORE for LESS under government-controlled health care.

Most importantly, if you think you'll get a break under ObamaCare, you're friggin' nuts.  Your employment and payroll tax contributions will certainly exceed your current health insurance premiums.  The bill that made it out of committee today is already at nearly $900 BILLION.  THAT IS ALL DEFICIT SPENDING UNTIL THE TAXES INCREASE TO PAY FOR IT.

Don't you get it?  You're an employer, so you're part of the problem as Obama and his crew see it.  You're not big enough to matter to them, unlike Goldman Sachs and his other big contributors.

And most of this has nothing to do with the fact that,  you gave up and went back to work for an employer that provides your insurance...

You don't give a #$%* if anyone else on the planet has health care insurance or not... as long as you don't have to contribute.

Ed, I would suggest that tomorrow when you walk into work you kiss your management square on the mouth and drop trousers if it makes them happy, to keep that job. $85.00 a month is peanuts. They must be making a amazing contribution way above industry standards for the coverage you describe. I just got a notice that I will now have to make a retro payment back to August 1 since the benevolent United Healthcare bought my current provider and bumped up the rates. You are living in a bubble compared to the rest of us. If you lose that gig, you are gonna want to cut your wrists. 

[sangyo soichiro]

All this talk about college vs. job; I feel I might have something to contribute to the discussion...

I went through two apprenticeships in Michigan; tool and die, and machine building.  Each required 8000+ hours of on-the-job training, and about 41-ish college credits of trade-related classes from the community college.  But my employers paid the college as long as we got a C grade or better.  So no student debt.  (And I was able to overlap some classes and on-the-job time for the two apprenticeships.  And of course, I didn't really need to do two apprenticeships, but I was aggressive.)

The other college I did (math and physics) I had to pay for myself (for the bachelors degrees).  I was fortunate enough to have saved the money to do that though, so still no student debt.  I get a stipend to go to graduate school for the masters and Ph.D. provided I do some teaching duties, so no debt there either (for me anyway, but I worked hard to get here).  The price I paid to do this was being an older student than the rest by about 8 years.  It may seem trivial, but it is kind of socially awkward.  Plus, I have to delay "settling down" with a wife and kids because I don't have a stable job yet.  It's also not easy when you're a student and your wife is not (ex-wife now...).  The whole thing is a sacrifice.  

A full-time student is about 15-18 credit hours.  But that's in-class time.  The better the grade I wanted, the more time I spent studying.  Plus I actually wanted to learn the stuff.  It was not easy.  And I was always taking my 'work' home with me (I cared about my grades).  When I worked in the factory, my down time was my own and I didn't have to be worrying about not studying - my down time then was a lot less stressful.  You put as much work into school as you want to get out of it.  "Cs get degrees," but I wanted the As.

And graduate school is tougher still.

I have worked in a factory 55+ hours a week plus night school for 8 years for the apprenticeships, and I've also been a "full-time student" for just about as long.  For school, we put in a lot of work, and we have to pay to do it (it is a job with a negative income).  Neither school nor working in the factory was 'easy.'  Each has its own set of headaches.  And both have their good times too.  I was lucky that when I did tool and die the economy was pretty good.  (55+ hours/week was mandatory then.  Of course, that was an extra 15+ hours/week of your life you were never getting back, so 'lucky' may not exactly be the appropriate word.)  Getting the Ph.D. is the toughest thing I've ever done, and working in the factory was the most depressing at times.  Overall I'm happy with the route I took, but I would probably advise my future children to go to college when they are younger than I was (if college is the path they want to take).  

Life sure is not easy.  


[Edit:]  In case the point I was trying to make got lost in there, I'm saying neither school nor working a job are easy.  Each has its benefits and sacrifices.  And if you're dumb like me, you do both.      

[masonryman]

wow

[edbikerii]

Good for you, and all your hard work, Soichiro.

All this talk about college vs. job; I feel I might have something to contribute to the discussion...

I went through two apprenticeships in Michigan; tool and die, and machine building.  Each required 8000+ hours of on-the-job training, and about 41-ish college credits of trade-related classes from the community college.  But my employers paid the college as long as we got a C grade or better.  So no student debt.  (And I was able to overlap some classes and on-the-job time for the two apprenticeships.  And of course, I didn't really need to do two apprenticeships, but I was aggressive.)

The other college I did (math and physics) I had to pay for myself (for the bachelors degrees).  I was fortunate enough to have saved the money to do that though, so still no student debt.  I get a stipend to go to graduate school for the masters and Ph.D. provided I do some teaching duties, so no debt there either (for me anyway, but I worked hard to get here).  The price I paid to do this was being an older student than the rest by about 8 years.  It may seem trivial, but it is kind of socially awkward.  Plus, I have to delay "settling down" with a wife and kids because I don't have a stable job yet.  It's also not easy when you're a student and your wife is not (ex-wife now...).  The whole thing is a sacrifice.  

A full-time student is about 15-18 credit hours.  But that's in-class time.  The better the grade I wanted, the more time I spent studying.  Plus I actually wanted to learn the stuff.  It was not easy.  And I was always taking my 'work' home with me (I cared about my grades).  When I worked in the factory, my down time was my own and I didn't have to be worrying about not studying - my down time then was a lot less stressful.  You put as much work into school as you want to get out of it.  "Cs get degrees," but I wanted the As.

And graduate school is tougher still.

I have worked in a factory 55+ hours a week plus night school for 8 years for the apprenticeships, and I've also been a "full-time student" for just about as long.  For school, we put in a lot of work, and we have to pay to do it (it is a job with a negative income).  Neither school nor working in the factory was 'easy.'  Each has its own set of headaches.  And both have their good times too.  I was lucky that when I did tool and die the economy was pretty good.  (55+ hours/week was mandatory then.  Of course, that was an extra 15+ hours/week of your life you were never getting back, so 'lucky' may not exactly be the appropriate word.)  Getting the Ph.D. is the toughest thing I've ever done, and working in the factory was the most depressing at times.  Overall I'm happy with the route I took, but I would probably advise my future children to go to college when they are younger than I was (if college is the path they want to take).  

Life sure is not easy.  


[Edit:]  In case the point I was trying to make got lost in there, I'm saying neither school nor working a job are easy.  Each has its benefits and sacrifices.  And if you're dumb like me, you do both.      

[Bob Wessner]

And if you're dumb like me...

Hardly. Congratulations. You have a great deal to be proud of.

[Uncle Ernie]

I got a bachelors degree in my late 30's.  Worked full time and went to school 3/4 time.  Lived in a one room slum to save money on rent.  I got all A's and even got a merit scholarship the last semester. 

Now, here I sit.  I've kind of given up looking for a job because no one will hire me.  Kathleen thinks it's because I'm too smart.  That makes me laugh.  Still, I think when I fill out applications, I'm going to leave any post-high school education out.  See what happens...  Something has to give- I looked for work for 2 years and spent all my so-called reserve. 

A lot of people don't understand things because they haven't lived it.  Oh well ~

[BobbyR]

Right Bobby, and you should walk into the nearest congressional representative's office and do exactly the same.  That's what you'll be doing under penalty of imprisonment when you find the new taxes worse than your health insurance premiums. 

See, this is right where you crazy liberals argument falls apart.  I AM CONTRIBUTING.  I'm paying premiums, and my employer is paying premiums and paying me a lower salary in return.

I'm not saying I don't want to contribute.  That's somebody else on this thread.  Not me.  Remember?

I'm saying that I want to continue getting quality healthcare for what I'm contributing.  I pay for it.  I deserve it.  I work hard for it.  I don't want to pay MORE for LESS under government-controlled health care.

Most importantly, if you think you'll get a break under ObamaCare, you're friggin' nuts.  Your employment and payroll tax contributions will certainly exceed your current health insurance premiums.  The bill that made it out of committee today is already at nearly $900 BILLION.  THAT IS ALL DEFICIT SPENDING UNTIL THE TAXES INCREASE TO PAY FOR IT.

Don't you get it?  You're an employer, so you're part of the problem as Obama and his crew see it.  You're not big enough to matter to them, unlike Goldman Sachs and his other big contributors.

And most of this has nothing to do with the fact that,  you gave up and went back to work for an employer that provides your insurance...

You don't give a #$%* if anyone else on the planet has health care insurance or not... as long as you don't have to contribute.

Ed, I would suggest that tomorrow when you walk into work you kiss your management square on the mouth and drop trousers if it makes them happy, to keep that job. $85.00 a month is peanuts. They must be making a amazing contribution way above industry standards for the coverage you describe. I just got a notice that I will now have to make a retro payment back to August 1 since the benevolent United Healthcare bought my current provider and bumped up the rates. You are living in a bubble compared to the rest of us. If you lose that gig, you are gonna want to cut your wrists. 

Don;t worry Ed I pay an AMT which is 32% flat tax no deductions. If they want to add my health premuims on that. As Clint said "Make my day". Be nice to your employer, you are almost in a on free ride.

[HavocTurbo]

hehehe..... Ed was nice to someone.

So if I have a college education and yet still couldn't get a job in my field... and decided to open my own business, while working an unrelated full time job to help pay for that business...

Am I not entitled to get quality health care even if I cannot pay as much as you? Luckily your "seasonal" job offers you godlike rates Ed.

I'm far from riled up. Sure I acted out of line when I posted my information but I meant every word I said. You seem to not see the plight of your fellow working man.

Maybe you misunderstand... I'm not talking about people who take advantage of the system, try to avoid multiple unpaid medical bills (my brother is one of them), and illegal citizens, but people who are killing themselves trying to make a living and still cannot afford quality health care. Don't give it away for free sure.... but at least give us the ability to contribute what we can.

Nothing you can say here makes you better than me, or me better than you. I contribute to my community and country just like every responsible citizen should.

All I ask in return is knowing that if I get hurt while doing so.... I won't be left a vegetable because I don't have the ability to pay as much as you do. That my friend.... is irresponsible to your country's hard working citizens.

And especially to our country's veterans. My father and I are the only male members in our family to not go into the armed forces. So yes... I've seen the quality at the VA.

[edbikerii]

I don't get it.  You say you've seen the deplorable conditions that your relatives have had to endure with VA Hospitals, and yet you advocate government takeover of health care for everyone?  Our veterans are suffering through a health care crisis right now with poor quality care in VA Hospitals.  Why would you want those same beauraucrats coming between each and every American and his or her doctors?

Instead, why not consider the plan I've mentioned at least three times in this very thread.  It would provide more choice for patients, inspire innovation, drive down costs, and encourage insurance companies to help people take care of themselves better.

hehehe..... Ed was nice to someone.

So if I have a college education and yet still couldn't get a job in my field... and decided to open my own business, while working an unrelated full time job to help pay for that business...

Am I not entitled to get quality health care even if I cannot pay as much as you? Luckily your "seasonal" job offers you godlike rates Ed.

I'm far from riled up. Sure I acted out of line when I posted my information but I meant every word I said. You seem to not see the plight of your fellow working man.

Maybe you misunderstand... I'm not talking about people who take advantage of the system, try to avoid multiple unpaid medical bills (my brother is one of them), and illegal citizens, but people who are killing themselves trying to make a living and still cannot afford quality health care. Don't give it away for free sure.... but at least give us the ability to contribute what we can.

Nothing you can say here makes you better than me, or me better than you. I contribute to my community and country just like every responsible citizen should.

All I ask in return is knowing that if I get hurt while doing so.... I won't be left a vegetable because I don't have the ability to pay as much as you do. That my friend.... is irresponsible to your country's hard working citizens.

And especially to our country's veterans. My father and I are the only male members in our family to not go into the armed forces. So yes... I've seen the quality at the VA.

[HavocTurbo]

I don't advocate complete takeover... I advocate complete change.

You seem happy and content to shell out money every week for your insurance but fail to see the diabolical intentions of the person you are paying. So I guess maybe you haven't been screwed over. I congratulate you on being damn lucky.

My problem isn't that the government doesn't control everything... but the insurance companies DO. It's our money Ed. We should be able to spend our premiums on what ever treatment we deem fit. Not the other way around.

The fact that you seem to completely ignore that makes me wonder if you even care at all.

No other business has complete control over your money after you pay for a service. Again... Government doesn't count.

Would you buy food and then give complete control to the server to put whatever they wanted on it?

Would you buy parts for your motorcycles and then hand over complete control over what color and model they are for?

Would you still be content if that same bike shop said well since your bike came in with an already broken motor, we aren't going to fix it, no matter how much you already paid in advance. And you cannot get your deposit back?

No.

You'd be screaming from the rooftops about getting ripped off.

So sure. I understand. It may seem that I am an advocate for government run healthcare. But don't be mistaken, I'm not totally sold on the idea. I'm still doing my research.

What I do advocate is the destruction of all the shady business practices and deals that insurance companies have polished and sharpened to fleece this country's citizens of all of their hard earned money and sense of well being. Not one single citizen of this country should be subjected to that kind of abuse.

Enough of the VA. My family has refused to go since paying for their so called health insurance. They make a good living. So they can afford to be ripped off. But the atrocities that go on in the VA hospitals has to stop.

It's my opinion that those who saw combat should get their care at the best hospitals in the nation for free. Especially my grandparent's generation. (WWII) I'd gladly pay more in taxes to help with that.

[demon78]

Who wouldn't HT, any one who takes the Kings Guinea had better be treated like a minor deity with the best health care. Has any one ever read Heinlein's Star Ship Trooper not for the jingoistic crap, but for the premise that you must have served your country and done well enough at it to be offered  "Citizenship" so you are the only ones that can make decisions for the good of your country it would weed out the whiners and wannabe's, health care, Insurance, would be treated like utilities as well as other things. It seems to me that you should have enough service people coming back from conflicts to form a political party with out all the ties to big business. Just a thought.
Bill the demon.

[Cvillechopper]

I don't advocate complete takeover... I advocate complete change.

You seem happy and content to shell out money every week for your insurance but fail to see the diabolical intentions of the person you are paying. So I guess maybe you haven't been screwed over. I congratulate you on being damn lucky.

My problem isn't that the government doesn't control everything... but the insurance companies DO. It's our money Ed. We should be able to spend our premiums on what ever treatment we deem fit. Not the other way around.

The fact that you seem to completely ignore that makes me wonder if you even care at all.

No other business has complete control over your money after you pay for a service. Again... Government doesn't count.

Would you buy food and then give complete control to the server to put whatever they wanted on it?

Would you buy parts for your motorcycles and then hand over complete control over what color and model they are for?

Would you still be content if that same bike shop said well since your bike came in with an already broken motor, we aren't going to fix it, no matter how much you already paid in advance. And you cannot get your deposit back?

No.

You'd be screaming from the rooftops about getting ripped off.

So sure. I understand. It may seem that I am an advocate for government run healthcare. But don't be mistaken, I'm not totally sold on the idea. I'm still doing my research.

What I do advocate is the destruction of all the shady business practices and deals that insurance companies have polished and sharpened to fleece this country's citizens of all of their hard earned money and sense of well being. Not one single citizen of this country should be subjected to that kind of abuse.

Enough of the VA. My family has refused to go since paying for their so called health insurance. They make a good living. So they can afford to be ripped off. But the atrocities that go on in the VA hospitals has to stop.

It's my opinion that those who saw combat should get their care at the best hospitals in the nation for free. Especially my grandparent's generation. (WWII) I'd gladly pay more in taxes to help with that.

I'm sorry but there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what you are buying when you purchase insurance.  Before you pay one dollar you have the opportunity (though most seem not to take it which causes most of the "screwed over" feelings) to thoroughly read your contract and understand what would be covered and what would not.  The insurance company doesn't make up the rules afterward, they simply comply with the contract you signed.  

If I paid for a meal at a restaurant without reading the menu how could I complain when I get fried goat nut linguine?  There is too little personal accountability in the nation today.  I realize that there are some cases of insurance companies acting unscrupulously but I would be interested to see the statistics.  Being intimately involved in the process I would be surprised if those type cases account for more than 1/2% of total insurance claims in the US.  

If more people in the US decided to actually read and understand the coverage they were considering, then choose (out of more than just the cheapest options) you'd see prices start to decline and coverage increase.  Consumers have the power but seem to be too lazy to take advantage of it.  

[HavocTurbo]

I'm sorry but there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what you are buying when you purchase insurance.  Before you pay one dollar you have the opportunity (though most seem not to take it which causes most of the "screwed over" feelings) to thoroughly read your contract and understand what would be covered and what would not.  The insurance company doesn't make up the rules afterward, they simply comply with the contract you signed.  

If I paid for a meal at a restaurant without reading the menu how could I complain when I get fried goat nut linguine?  There is too little personal accountability in the nation today.  I realize that there are some cases of insurance companies acting unscrupulously but I would be interested to see the statistics.  Being intimately involved in the process I would be surprised if those type cases account for more than 1/2% of total insurance claims in the US.  

If more people in the US decided to actually read and understand the coverage they were considering, then choose (out of more than just the cheapest options) you'd see prices start to decline and coverage increase.  Consumers have the power but seem to be too lazy to take advantage of it.  

Ok here's an example.

My Uncle is an appeals judge in Cook County (Chicago). So I'm sure (also backed after the fact) he read and understood the policies and terms of his contracts.

10 years after he purchased insurance for his newborn children and wife, his daughter came down with bone cancer. Turns out she had had the signs and markers for her entire life. No one noticed it or marked it in a chart.

When the insurance company found out that it was technically a pre-existing condition, they stopped paying for treatment and demanded reimbursement for all procedures up to that point. No inquiry, no fact finding mission, just a letter. They refused phone calls, refused second opinions, even refused to accept copies of the unmarked charts.

After 4 years in court (he's a judge mind you) they still hadn't reached a decision and she died not being able to get the care she needed. Care that may have saved her life.

My uncle spent every last dime he had, and even borrowed money to the limit of his credit, and still could not afford the care on his own.

Would she have died anyway? Who knows. But to make people go to the extent of legal action over the life of a 10 year old is stupid and unforgiveable.


OK.... So I'm emotionally attached. I won't deny it. But the rules still apply. If it were any other business in any other industry.... you all would be screaming bloody murder.

Let me say it again.... I DON'T WANT TOTAL GOVERNMENT CONTROL. What I want is change. More specifically??

I want a general caring attitude that makes people feel like you don't have to sell your soul to be healthy and happy.

[andy750]

Ill paraphrase your statement....

I want a general caring healthcare system that makes people feel like you don't have to sell your soul to be healthy...

Sounds like the UK NHS  

All this talk of insurance contracts and fine print - sounds like you are going to buy a car or a house....it wont be long before you`ll be penalized on your health insurance for risk in leading an unhealthy lifestyle, drinking too much, smoking, being fat, doing dangerous sports that may endanger your life etc etc....and you want THIS from the Insurance company?.....someone controlling what you do in your life? All this talk of government control is nothing compared to the control the insurance company has over you.....unlike a doctor the insurance company has no concern over whether you live or die but only concerns itself with the bottom line, the profit margin.......there is no care in healthcare here...

[Cvillechopper]

I'm sorry but there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what you are buying when you purchase insurance.  Before you pay one dollar you have the opportunity (though most seem not to take it which causes most of the "screwed over" feelings) to thoroughly read your contract and understand what would be covered and what would not.  The insurance company doesn't make up the rules afterward, they simply comply with the contract you signed.  

If I paid for a meal at a restaurant without reading the menu how could I complain when I get fried goat nut linguine?  There is too little personal accountability in the nation today.  I realize that there are some cases of insurance companies acting unscrupulously but I would be interested to see the statistics.  Being intimately involved in the process I would be surprised if those type cases account for more than 1/2% of total insurance claims in the US.  

If more people in the US decided to actually read and understand the coverage they were considering, then choose (out of more than just the cheapest options) you'd see prices start to decline and coverage increase.  Consumers have the power but seem to be too lazy to take advantage of it.  

Ok here's an example.

My Uncle is an appeals judge in Cook County (Chicago). So I'm sure (also backed after the fact) he read and understood the policies and terms of his contracts.

10 years after he purchased insurance for his newborn children and wife, his daughter came down with bone cancer. Turns out she had had the signs and markers for her entire life. No one noticed it or marked it in a chart.

When the insurance company found out that it was technically a pre-existing condition, they stopped paying for treatment and demanded reimbursement for all procedures up to that point. No inquiry, no fact finding mission, just a letter. They refused phone calls, refused second opinions, even refused to accept copies of the unmarked charts.

After 4 years in court (he's a judge mind you) they still hadn't reached a decision and she died not being able to get the care she needed. Care that may have saved her life.

My uncle spent every last dime he had, and even borrowed money to the limit of his credit, and still could not afford the care on his own.

Would she have died anyway? Who knows. But to make people go to the extent of legal action over the life of a 10 year old is stupid and unforgiveable.


OK.... So I'm emotionally attached. I won't deny it. But the rules still apply. If it were any other business in any other industry.... you all would be screaming bloody murder.

Let me say it again.... I DON'T WANT TOTAL GOVERNMENT CONTROL. What I want is change. More specifically??

I want a general caring attitude that makes people feel like you don't have to sell your soul to be healthy and happy.

I am not trying to minimalize the experience your family had.  It was obviously horrible and that company should be prosecuted to the extent of the law if they broke the contract or purposefully misused information to circumvent procedure.  That being said, you have just described a single case.  I could (if it wasn't against the law for me to do so) give you very specific examples of thousands of cases for which the insurance company paid without so much as a question to the doctor or hospital to verify the treatment. 

Many decisions on the issue use very specific, individual examples to talk about how wrong the current state is (I think it is severely lacking but for different reasons).  The truth that is hard for many to swallow is that any system will have people with similar stories.  All we can do is try to work toward a system that punishes those that abuse it, rewards those that take the time to understand it and contribute, with a minimally acceptable level of "fell through the crack" type cases. 

[MickeyX]

[BobbyR]

Ill paraphrase your statement....

I want a general caring healthcare system that makes people feel like you don't have to sell your soul to be healthy...

Sounds like the UK NHS  

All this talk of insurance contracts and fine print - sounds like you are going to buy a car or a house....it wont be long before you`ll be penalized on your health insurance for risk in leading an unhealthy lifestyle, drinking too much, smoking, being fat, doing dangerous sports that may endanger your life etc etc....and you want THIS from the Insurance company?.....someone controlling what you do in your life? All this talk of government control is nothing compared to the control the insurance company has over you.....unlike a doctor the insurance company has no concern over whether you live or die but only concerns itself with the bottom line, the profit margin.......there is no care in healthcare here...

Hear Hear Bravo!

[HavocTurbo]

All we can do is try to work toward a system that punishes those that abuse it, rewards those that take the time to understand it and contribute, with a minimally acceptable level of "fell through the crack" type cases.

That's all I ask. And if that means a government run system or even a private only system... so be it. Being relatively cheap couldn't hurt either.

[Cvillechopper]

Ill paraphrase your statement....

I want a general caring healthcare system that makes people feel like you don't have to sell your soul to be healthy...

Sounds like the UK NHS  

All this talk of insurance contracts and fine print - sounds like you are going to buy a car or a house....it wont be long before you`ll be penalized on your health insurance for risk in leading an unhealthy lifestyle, drinking too much, smoking, being fat, doing dangerous sports that may endanger your life etc etc....and you want THIS from the Insurance company?.....someone controlling what you do in your life? All this talk of government control is nothing compared to the control the insurance company has over you.....unlike a doctor the insurance company has no concern over whether you live or die but only concerns itself with the bottom line, the profit margin.......there is no care in healthcare here...

Actually, I think that people that live unhealthy lifestyles should have to pay much more than those that do not.  They are creating a much larger risk so should have to pay more for someone else to accept that risk.  If you're fat or are a smoker you are making a decision to risk your own health.  Why should others that actually take care of themselves and have a much lower probability of many major illnesses pay the same?

This is part of what I mean by lack of personal accountability these days.  If I decide to drink alcohol I understand that there are some side effects to my health, depending on quantity.  I also accept that I may have to pay for this.  Why should I expect someone else to pay for my medical needs that I bring on myself? 

I've said this before and I'll try once more.  Health insurance is not a right.  You are paying for a company to accept risk as defined within a contract in exchange for monthly premiums, no different than home owners or car insurance. 

The underlying costs have been driven up by governmental regulation and manhandling of providers.  If you really want to get to a point where costs are lower (not just end consumer cost) you need to get the Goliath of government out of the industry as much as possible.  Medicare should be shut down and those that have been contributing to it for years should be given a stipend to by their own insurance.  Additionally you exclude employers from subsidizing health insurance (this may be optional).  The HUGE influx of additional consumers into the market will drive competition and make prices drop and coverage increase.  This all requires that the end consumer take some responsibility for their own health so it will be very hard to sell but would make the industry much stronger and avoid unnecessarily burdening others with one's health issues. 

[andy750]

I sort of guessed you would reply with something like that. Interesting that its always the governments fault.

Overall your approach is very much a market-based one where you imagine that shutting down government-run subsidized Medicaid will solve all the problems with private-run insurance companies....a little simplistic to think so. And here is the reason why....many poorer people (from all backgrounds and all ages) depend on medicaid. Shutting it down and saying - "here is a stipend" you are now on your own, is like feeding them to the sharks. You think that profit-making insurance companies will welcome them in with open arms? No of course not, they`ll pick and choose the healthy people, while the ones with pre-existing conditions get to pay higher premiums and get less actual health care and higher deductibles. If more consumers drive costs lower, why hasnt cable got much cheaper over the years? Instead it keeps on increasing..this is just one example to refute your idea of mass consumer is...plenty more...phone companies for example...and so on...and who will regulate these private-insurance companies?   

But back to a basic reality....you say health insurance is not a right....ok fine...but what about health care? Dosent the government have a moral right to protect its citizens and ensure they have decent affordable health care? Just tell me why in every other Westernized nation health care is a right and is paid for through taxation. Its NON-profit. Why is the US allowing insurance companies to profit off of sick people?

And finally to your point about people with unhealthy lifestyles should pay more...ah so controversial...how do you propose to regulate this? And who should be penalised? Everyone who is fat? How about the fat people who are exercising? Do you think they should be weighed every month to check progress? Cameras everywhere? You see it all gets rather silly and impossible and loss of personal freedom...never ends does it?...and you never did address the fact you want insurane companies to control our lives...what we do and what we eat...where does it stop? This is the basic problem with market-based for-profit health insurance...its NOT the same as buying a car or buying a house..we are talking people here. Free-thinking people who dont want to be regulated.

Cheers
Andy

[Cvillechopper]

I understand why my argument does not make sense to you and at the risk of getting shunned by most on this board (it's happened with people not on a forum already) I'll try to explain why.  There is one basic principal around which all aspects of the healthcare debate fall.  This is the idea that the human life is precious and that everyone must think the same to live in a given society.  I do not agree with this.  I think that there are acceptable losses in any compromise that protects the freedom of individuals from governmental control when balanced against providing protection for every single human being. 

It sounds cold but only if you look at it in the short term.  The current plan (and any that expands the government's involvement in healthcare) will lead to the slow and inevitable decline in profits of providers.  Providers MUST make profits in order to re-invest in new equipment keeping the care provided up with the recent advancements.  The US is at the forefront of new developments in healthcare technology.  Without the providers purchasing the new equipment the researcher and developers will not make profits needed to invest in R&D and the next technology will not be invented. 

The paper I attached earlier explains just a small part of why healthcare profits are crucial to the long term maintenance of the health of the world (the entire world benefits from the developments we make).  I don't expect many to accept this argument but believe it is an aspect of the conversation that most people just dismiss and it will be detrimental in the long run.

[Retro Rocket]

The US is at the forefront of new developments in healthcare technology.  Without the providers purchasing the new equipment the researcher and developers will not make profits needed to invest in R&D and the next technology will not be invented.

The paper I attached earlier explains just a small part of why healthcare profits are crucial to the long term maintenance of the health of the world (the entire world benefits from the developments we make).  I don't expect many to accept this argument but believe it is an aspect of the conversation that most people just dismiss and it will be detrimental in the long run.

You seem to be another one that thinks America invents everything..   I don't want to start an argument but that is simply nonsense. The "entire world" benefits from the breakthroughs that every country makes and in your language,  Australia is at the forefront of a lot of medical breakthroughs as are a lot of other countries and we don't have your over inflated health care costs at all. Another point is that a lot of medical breakthroughs come from universities,  even medications,and these patents are grabbed by bigger companies and used to make a fortune with no research and development at all.
I'm sorry but i just had to add this as some people think America invented everything and we all should be thankful for it, thats just not true.

Mick

[BobbyR]

Ill paraphrase your statement....

I want a general caring healthcare system that makes people feel like you don't have to sell your soul to be healthy...

Sounds like the UK NHS  

All this talk of insurance contracts and fine print - sounds like you are going to buy a car or a house....it wont be long before you`ll be penalized on your health insurance for risk in leading an unhealthy lifestyle, drinking too much, smoking, being fat, doing dangerous sports that may endanger your life etc etc....and you want THIS from the Insurance company?.....someone controlling what you do in your life? All this talk of government control is nothing compared to the control the insurance company has over you.....unlike a doctor the insurance company has no concern over whether you live or die but only concerns itself with the bottom line, the profit margin.......there is no care in healthcare here...

Actually, I think that people that live unhealthy lifestyles should have to pay much more than those that do not.  They are creating a much larger risk so should have to pay more for someone else to accept that risk.  If you're fat or are a smoker you are making a decision to risk your own health.  Why should others that actually take care of themselves and have a much lower probability of many major illnesses pay the same?

This is part of what I mean by lack of personal accountability these days.  If I decide to drink alcohol I understand that there are some side effects to my health, depending on quantity.  I also accept that I may have to pay for this.  Why should I expect someone else to pay for my medical needs that I bring on myself?  

I've said this before and I'll try once more.  Health insurance is not a right.  You are paying for a company to accept risk as defined within a contract in exchange for monthly premiums, no different than home owners or car insurance.  

The underlying costs have been driven up by governmental regulation and manhandling of providers.  If you really want to get to a point where costs are lower (not just end consumer cost) you need to get the Goliath of government out of the industry as much as possible.  Medicare should be shut down and those that have been contributing to it for years should be given a stipend to by their own insurance.  Additionally you exclude employers from subsidizing health insurance (this may be optional).  The HUGE influx of additional consumers into the market will drive competition and make prices drop and coverage increase.  This all requires that the end consumer take some responsibility for their own health so it will be very hard to sell but would make the industry much stronger and avoid unnecessarily burdening others with one's health issues.  

If follow your rationale which does make some sense, you would be rated due to the fact that your ride a Motorcycle. In 2007 In the United States, motorcycle accident deaths increased by 6.6%, accounting for almost one in eight motor vehicle deaths. Biker deaths hit an all-time low in 1997. Since that time, they have increased by 128%.
In Minnisota When a motorcycle is involved in a traffic crash, the chances of severe injury are greatly increased. In fact, 3.7 of every 100 motorcycle crashes in 2004 were fatal and nearly one out of every five motorcyclists injured was injured severely.

So under your scenario you would pay far more than the average person for your weight and other lifestyle factors. If they put you on a point rating system according to lifestyle factors. If you were a few lbs overweight on some chart, worked in Construction, Farming, working with machinery etc, which have high injury rates, they would keep adding points under their underwriting guidelines. If you ride a motorcycle in a helmet optional State, that would add more points.

So, you would be assigned much higher premiums than your next door neighbors and friends?
Would you like a system in which your choice of recreational pursuits, employment, a few extra Ice Cream Sundaes, push your premiums through the roof?

On the surface what you propose would make sense, as you drill down into the details it becomes less attractive on an individual basis. Or, would you opt for personal freedom? Just food for thought.

[Cvillechopper]

I would opt for the personal choice and am very willing to pay more for my personal lifestyle choices if it means that I'm not paying for others choices.  I also understand that my father, who is a smoker with recently developed asthma and chronic bronchitis and drinks more than her should, would either have to pay premiums too high to pay or would be forced to make changes that would make him healthier. 

My stance is not popular and I do not claim to have all of the answers but do think there is merit in forcing individuals to begin taking responsibility for themselves. 

[BobbyR]

I would opt for the personal choice and am very willing to pay more for my personal lifestyle choices if it means that I'm not paying for others choices.  I also understand that my father, who is a smoker with recently developed asthma and chronic bronchitis and drinks more than her should, would either have to pay premiums too high to pay or would be forced to make changes that would make him healthier. 

My stance is not popular and I do not claim to have all of the answers but do think there is merit in forcing individuals to begin taking responsibility for themselves. 

You have a right to your opinion. We will see how this all shakes out. Much too soon to tell.