Author Topic: CB750 cam tower  (Read 14021 times)

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Offline Ace

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CB750 cam tower
« on: July 25, 2009, 01:30:53 AM »
Just putting the top end back together and noticed the cam tower for #1 & #2 cylinder, there is a slight gap on the exhaust side where the tower meets the head.  The rest of it and the other cam tower are flat.  I'm guessing something going on there and possibly why the penny rubber ended up leaking.  I did have a proud helicoil that I fixed, apart from that I'm not sure what could be holding it up. 

Can I get away with it stick up 1/2 a mm at the front?
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Offline bryanj

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2009, 11:09:57 AM »
NOWAY NOHOW NEVER---clear enough?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2009, 04:33:20 PM »
It won't oil the cam, if you do that...
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2009, 07:29:40 PM »
FIx It HAS to sit level,dowel pins ok? Bill
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Offline Ace

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2009, 01:38:23 AM »
Dow pins should be ok as I checked them when I pulled it apart.  It seats at the rear just not the front.  I do have another cam tower but I wouldn't think the tower is the problem.  Is there anything in particular I should be looking for?
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Offline bryanj

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2009, 09:13:47 AM »
catching on cylinder head nuts/washers?
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2009, 10:43:01 AM »
Check what Bryan said ,not much clearance washer is very close ,a larger OD washer would cause this.Good Luck,Bill
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Offline Ace

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2009, 02:20:35 AM »
Finally got around to taking off the cam towers.  Looks like a helicoil was to blame.  When I bolted down the exhaust side of the cam tower it started to pull the helicoil out.  Problem identified, now I have to fix it.  I can put another helicoil in but screw it further down the hole and hope fit doesn't pull out, or.....................
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2009, 02:27:33 AM »
I'd re-try the helicoil deeper in first but use a tiny bit of threadlock when putting the coil in...
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Offline voxonda

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2009, 03:07:07 AM »
I do not like the Heili-coils. It is OK for some thing fix, that does not have to be removed. I rather use thread bushings. A much safer bet.


Edit: Thanks to Gordon, they are called Time-sert's
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 06:06:01 AM by voxonda »
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2009, 04:48:16 AM »
I like the new Timeserts - easy to install and solid threads.

Watch this video and you'll be a fan. I bought the hole range of 6, 8, and 10 mm.

Gordon
 
http://www.timesert.com

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Offline bryanj

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2009, 04:53:46 AM »
Keenserts---standard tap no special tools
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2009, 06:00:56 AM »
The guys nailed it ,helicoils used to be all we had and can and will work,but timeserts and keenserts much better. Bill
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2009, 08:43:07 AM »
Finally got around to taking off the cam towers.  Looks like a helicoil was to blame.  When I bolted down the exhaust side of the cam tower it started to pull the helicoil out.  Problem identified, now I have to fix it.  I can put another helicoil in but screw it further down the hole and hope fit doesn't pull out, or.....................

Ace:
This is the Achilles' Heel of the 750, on reassembly. That long 6mm bolt on the cam towers should only be bolted to 7 ft-lbs, no more, ESPECIALLY on the bikes before the K3. This item is only covered in the original K0 manual (like mine), and never appeared after that in any manual I've seen: I have a post about it that Steve D. put into the Thoughts of Hondaman collection.

You can set that helicoil in deeper or install a new one: if you do a new one, use the 1/4" long version for more bite. When tightening the bolt, also spin the rocker shaft: stop tightening if the shaft stops spinning. (I'm presuming the little 5mm bolts are not being used to lock the shaft in place, here: you don't want to use those, if you have them...) If, at the non-spin point, you have not reached 7 ft-lbs, then pull the bolt back out and apply some BLUE Loctite on the threads and reassemble, again stopping early if the shaft wants to stop turning.

The story of these rocker shafts: in the K3 engines (first appeared in late K2, actually) Honda installed these little 5mm bolts, two per shaft, to stop the shaft from rattling a little. This was due to an effort on their part to quiet down the bikes mechanically: the whole country at that time was riding the 750 with Vetter Windjammer fairings (by the tens of thousands) and the 750 was the Premier Tourer machine. But, the top end noises get reflected back into your face with those fairings, and Honda wanted a quieter image.

When they locked down this little rattle, they also made small oiling grooves on the shafts that were supposed to collect the splash oil through the rocker's oiling holes to get oil down to the bottom of the rocker, where the pressure is highest. Trouble: the holes on the rockers are not accurately placed. Many, many (most, really) ended up with very little oil on those spots, and the shafts and rockers wore out in as little as 10,000 miles.

At first, we used to replace the rockers and shafts and NOT install the little 5mm bolts. This change alone puts between 1/2 and 1 HP more on the ground. Later, I came up with the following performance enhancements, which I just did on a K3 (Hondaman Special #1) last month and photo-documented: open up the rocker oiling holes (sideways if necessary) to "reach" the oiling grooves on the shafts, and grind the sharp edges of those shafts' grooves, if needed (and try installing them in different orientations), so as to get the groove to show up in the rocker's oiling hole when the shaft is pushed to both the left and right extremes of its travel against the single center bolt. This change almost completely stopped all the tiny clicking noises by using oil as the cushion, and it will add even more HP to the ground on that bike.

This fixup presumes you have the K3 & later style of shafts: it can be applied to the current Honda replacement parts for a K0-K2 as well, because they have changed those parts to NOT rotate by changing the center V-groove to a side-slot instead: this stops rotation again. I am making my own, now, from Thomson rod (12mm), grinding in the center 360 degree groove. Maybe by Winter I'll have some for sale for those who want them, but my bike gets the first set. ;)

See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2009, 08:53:53 AM »
Here's some shots of the modded setup, with the holes showing the oil grooves properly. (E-mail me if you want these in hi-res pix, mgparis@concentric.net).

You will generally find the oil grooves to be off toward one side of the holes in the rockers. In these pix, it was off to the left so far that the groove disappeared when the shaft was centered on the little 5mm bolts' holes. I never reinstall those 5mm bolts on a stock engine: they will cause more rapid wear on the rockers and shafts, even with this mod.

On engines with high-lift cams and strong springs, which will be running a LOT at  10k RPM and more, these little bolts can prevent bending or breakage of the rocker shaft. So, to use them in those situations, the oil grooves in the rocker shafts must be ground wider to reach the (also widened) rocker oiling holes, and then the rocker bearing area should be micro-grooved on the bottom to help disperse the oil and prevent heating. This heating can swell the shaft, which then causes it to twist between this rocker and the one on the other side of this shaft, which can fracture the wasp-waist in the area of the long 6mm retainer bolt: so then, the little 5mm bolts are warranted.

BTW: with the K0-K2 setup with the rotating rocker shaft: mine has gone 138,000 miles with the original shafts and rockers, and they have not yet reached even half of the allowed wear limits, and the top end is still a slight clicker behind my Vetter. On the typical K3 and later setup, 20k miles is usually the maximum before the shafts and rockers are severly worn (and very noisy).  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline 754

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2009, 09:39:31 AM »
I dont know how you could get the helicoil back down, but I know how to remove if they are flush.. file a few notches into it, then use a 3 corner file.

 I diasagree what some on here say re Helicoil use, I have good luck with them, and NEVER go any bigger than needed on a thread repair. If you worry about the helicoil pulling in this instance, use a stud, rather than bolt.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2009, 11:29:54 AM »
I dont know how you could get the helicoil back down, but I know how to remove if they are flush.. file a few notches into it, then use a 3 corner file.

 I diasagree what some on here say re Helicoil use, I have good luck with them, and NEVER go any bigger than needed on a thread repair. If you worry about the helicoil pulling in this instance, use a stud, rather than bolt.

A stud would be great here, but then it would be like a Kawasaki.... :-\
754:
This is once instance in these heads where "more threads is better", and Honda did just that on the K4 and later engines. In the K0-K3, there were only 4-5 threads on these holes, and the soft aluminum just lets go after one or two trips of the bolt. By the time they did the K4, the hole was threaded almost 1cm deep. That's why I usually recommend longer threads in this spot.  ;)

Otherwise, I agree with you on the principle: adding more threads isn't always the best solution.  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 754

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2009, 11:47:51 AM »
I wasnt referring to longer threads (which is good)
 What I am talking about is Timeserts & Keenserts are usually bigger in DIAMETER, the bigger you go the less room you have.

 I am thinking if a Helicoil failed, THEN you still have those methods to fix the threads.
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It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2009, 12:47:14 PM »
I wasnt referring to longer threads (which is good)
 What I am talking about is Timeserts & Keenserts are usually bigger in DIAMETER, the bigger you go the less room you have.

 I am thinking if a Helicoil failed, THEN you still have those methods to fix the threads.

Oh, I gotcha. Sorry!  :-[
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline NitroHunter

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2009, 03:02:33 PM »
Quote
the rocker bearing area should be micro-grooved on the bottom to help disperse the oil and prevent heating.
What did you use to micro-groove the rockers, and do you have any pics of them? My concern is do they keep enough oil to avoid bearing/shaft wear...

What do you think about a pressure-fed oiling groove in the bottom (instead of side drooling) of the cam bearings? Don't know that there's enough material to do this, but...
I'm thinking of something similar to the old Keith Black Racing Engines main bearing 'side oilers'. It used a pressurised external oil line from the pump to the 2-3-4 main cap side bolts. The bolt was rifle drilled with a fitting threaded into it, pressurized oil was now fed through both the upper and lower bearings. Some nitro cars used this in the 90's as a crutch against black bearings.

Is anyone aware of needle-bearing roller rockers and/or cam bearings that were built and run successfully?
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Offline Ace

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2009, 05:56:31 PM »
Some great info Hondaman.  Let me know when your book is out so I can get a few copies, one for the workshop, one for the lounge room and one to read in bed  ;D  Thanks to everyone else as well. 

I was going to try and put the helicoil in further as there looks like there is enough depth in the hole.  Torqued down to 9-10 ft lbs.  I took some photos of my cam tower setup on #1/2  exhaust side.  When it is in the middle, you can't see the groove for the oil in the rocker shaft.  On #3/4 exhaust side you can just see the edge of it.  Seems they are all different.

All this is happening on the CB750 F2 900cc big bore kit (I have another F2 head but it hasn't been ported, polished and faced offed.  The only time it goes 10k rpm or plus is when it jumps out of 4th gear under hard acceleration usually coming onto the highway (not every time).  I shift around 8000 8500 rpm as it's getting out of the power rpm range for the cam I've got. 

So could I get away with not putting in the 5mm bolts or because of the big bore kit I would be better off having them in there after I open up the oil hole on the rocker arm?  Would a drill bit be able to replace the small stone on the end of the drill?

Any other things/mods I should be looking for/doing while I have the top open and engine out?  Speed isn't everything, it's how long it takes to get there  ;D

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2009, 07:24:04 PM »
Quote
the rocker bearing area should be micro-grooved on the bottom to help disperse the oil and prevent heating.
What did you use to micro-groove the rockers, and do you have any pics of them? My concern is do they keep enough oil to avoid bearing/shaft wear...

What do you think about a pressure-fed oiling groove in the bottom (instead of side drooling) of the cam bearings? Don't know that there's enough material to do this, but...
I'm thinking of something similar to the old Keith Black Racing Engines main bearing 'side oilers'. It used a pressurised external oil line from the pump to the 2-3-4 main cap side bolts. The bolt was rifle drilled with a fitting threaded into it, pressurized oil was now fed through both the upper and lower bearings. Some nitro cars used this in the 90's as a crutch against black bearings.

Is anyone aware of needle-bearing roller rockers and/or cam bearings that were built and run successfully?

We groove(d) them using worn-down cutoff wheels in Dremel hand grinders: first we wore down (or used old worn down ones) the cutoff wheels until it was about 3/8" in diameter so it would fit into the rocker's hole. Then we add(ed) two or three shallow (.010" to .020" deep, approximately) half-moon grooves from the middle of the rocker's hole, through the bottom, back up the other side. There is great tendency for the tool to take off and chatter all the way around, so I only go halfway to minimize the risk during the process: a steady-rest or clamped setup would be greatly superior, but I tend to do things the shade-tree way...being from Moonshine country when I was a kid, where the cars had to be just a little faster than the cops'... I've never tried to take a picture of this, but maybe could. It's hard to see inside with a lens.

Roller rocker kits were marketed by a machine shop, back in the 1980s, sold all over the country, and failed mostly because they were poorly done (and cost $250 in 1980s money!). The needles were not hard enough, and the rocker shafts, where they were cut in to allow for the needles, were not hardened, or at least not hardened enough. On the dragstrips, they worked OK: on the street, not so much, wearing out in a season or so.

The cam bearings are pressure fed: there just isn't a whole lot of flow after the jets in the head limit the flow to each cam tower assembly, and part of that flow has to squirt out the jets onto the cams' lobes. I've seen some heads where the oiling hole was extended and tapered into a small, short groove from the side location to the bottom of the bearing, but this is actually against the direction of rotation, so I don't know how much that would help. Terry in AUS has recently been building some add-oil-to-the-top plumbing kits: they look like they will work, so long as not too much oil gets stolen from the crank's main galley on the back of the cylinders in the process. The purpose of those jets in the head are to ensure the lion's share of oil goes to the expensive crank bearings by holding back the flow: on heads where the jets have fallen out during someone's work (unnoticed), the result is usually a ruined crankshaft and leaking cam cover.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bucky katt

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2009, 08:14:46 PM »
when reassembling my k4 motor, the last bolt going in ended up stripping. i pulled the cam and towers back out and i just heli-coiled ALL the cam tower bolt holes. cheap insurance
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2009, 09:51:55 PM »
I was going to try and put the helicoil in further as there looks like there is enough depth in the hole.  Torqued down to 9-10 ft lbs.  I took some photos of my cam tower setup on #1/2  exhaust side.  When it is in the middle, you can't see the groove for the oil in the rocker shaft.  On #3/4 exhaust side you can just see the edge of it.  Seems they are all different.

So could I get away with not putting in the 5mm bolts or because of the big bore kit I would be better off having them in there after I open up the oil hole on the rocker arm?  Would a drill bit be able to replace the small stone on the end of the drill?

Any other things/mods I should be looking for/doing while I have the top open and engine out?  Speed isn't everything, it's how long it takes to get there  ;D


Yep, typically the rocker hole positions are all over the place. The grooves in the rocker shafts are pretty consistent in any given engine, but not necessarily so on their replacement parts. Since 2001 I have seen 3 different rocker shafts from Honda: the K0/K1 style allows limited rotation, the K2-K6 style with the oiling grooves allows none. If you replace them, go for the earlier ones, skip the little bolts, watch the torque on the center bolt. Make sure the shaft can rotate when done.

Better yet, get some Thomson shaft and make your own...

I think you will find that a drill won't help you make the holes wider, only bigger. I've often found that I'm "moving" the hole over almost its whole diameter: a bigger hole like this would probably not be good for the rocker. The funnel shape of the hole can often be improved, too, to catch more oil: I typically do this with a countersink or larger drill bit than the one used on the tapered hole.

While you're looking at those shafts: yours show wear: find out how much, with a micrometer. More than .003" is going to cause problems because the rocker will "snap" up and down and push the oil out during the initial cam lift: if it is .0008" to .0022" or so, the oil pumps itself into the slackened side more evenly during the off-lobe cycles. These locked-down shafts wear in an egg shape, with the wider part toward the loaded (lower) side of the rocker position. You will find the wear depth on that side.The hardening is about .005" deep: wear that deep will also eat the rocker.

My top end checklist, especially for big-bore engines:
Did you port the intakes?
Did you polish the valves (both sides)?
And, deshroud the valves?
Did you match the intake tubes to the head nipples?
Did you match the intake tubes to the carb (suction side) ports?
Did you create a quench band taper between the edge of the new bores and the edge of the old combustion chamber?
Did you hemi the head? (Optional, but sure adds midrange...)

I do all but the last two on every 750 I get to have apart...  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bucky katt

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Re: CB750 cam tower
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2009, 10:39:43 PM »
if i read that right mark, i should leave the little bolts out that keep the shaft from roatating?
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
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