Author Topic: HRC Clutch Basket  (Read 18219 times)

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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2009, 03:42:39 pm »
Seems he is local to me and lists being a fan of me ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

http://www.facebook.com/people/Alan-Jackson-Jnr/667097989

Sam. ;)
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2009, 03:59:07 pm »
I've sent him an email, you may be able to ask him yourself TG. ;)

Sam. ;)
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2009, 09:12:42 pm »
TG, I received this email from Alan, seems it was his dad but he will let him know.
I'm off line now untill Monday night, so keep your eye on this thread for a newbie.

Sam. ;)

Alan sent you a message.

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Re: Re your 77 TT f2 win.

Sam, Thanks for the message, Its actually my dad you need to talk with. I will mention it to him and look at the forum.
We will be in touch.
Cheers
Alan
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« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 09:20:55 pm by SamCB750A »
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Rod

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2009, 07:28:31 am »
Basket for CR cluster

Offline Rod

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2009, 07:29:21 am »
Basket for CR cluster

Offline Rod

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2009, 07:30:04 am »
STD basket

Offline Rod

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2009, 07:38:14 am »
STD basket, primary gear.

The 'special' basket has casting stamp FCC, the STD basket has Japanese ideographs. CR basket has ID that is 2-3mm wider than OEM, and different primary gearing. Any ideas guys?

Offline kayaker43

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2009, 08:37:17 am »
Can you give us the primary drive gear tooth count so we can figure out the ratio? It may be an optical illusion, but the shaft bore size looks smaller?? Possibly a cb650 part? Does the inner clutch hub have coarse or fine splines?

Offline bwaller

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2009, 08:46:50 am »
Thanks Rod. 78 teeth on the basket, 63 on the 550. 

A CJ360 twin 5spd has 78 teeth also. Finding a primary drive gear to fit & with proper teeth count may be the hang-up here.

Offline kayaker43

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2009, 10:01:46 am »
Very interesting.. The progression of primary drive ratios from 500/550/650 have always been to a lower numerical ratio. The crank gear is bigger, the clutch gear smaller.

500 - 3.246
550 - 3.063
650 - 2.740

This spins the clutch and trans faster, then the adjustment is made in the final drive. Since HP is torque x rpm, a faster spinning clutch and gearbox sees less torque, and torque is what bothers clutches. On the downside, there's more frictional losses in a faster spinning gearbox.

The clutch hub shown goes the wrong way with a higher (numerical) primary reduction which will send more torque through the clutch, presumably this is why it needs an extra plate? I suspect the different hub was neccessary to accomodate whatever main shaft was used for the CR box? We can only conclude that these must be borrowed parts instead of purpose built because they would never choose a higher ratio primary drive.

Unless,... they were going for less friction losses in the gearbox and weren't so worried about clutch slippage? Actually I like this thinking for a race bike. Why not use an old cb550 primary ratio and add thinner plates from a modern sportbike? Two opposing strategies, one goes for durability, the other for more efficiency.

Does anyone know the primary drive ratios, diameter and plate counts for a modern 600cc sportbike? It would be interesting to see which way evolution took us?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 10:06:57 am by kayaker43 »

Offline kayaker43

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2009, 10:19:54 am »
Just looked it up, a CBR600 has a 2.111 primary drive which falls in line with the trend toward faster spinning clutches and gearboxes. Then again, modern 600's do put out 100+Hp and the poor clutches need all the help they can get.

Now I'm convinced the Clutch hub (HRC?) shown must be from a cb360 or other model that the mainshaft was also borrowed from?

I posted some part numbers in another thread but my Yosh 5 speed uses an inner hub from a CB350/360, but it worked fine with the stock 550 basket. The part number was 22120-312-010 It also used a matching coarse spline mainshaft but it wasn't in a parts bag and I don't know the tooth count. I purchase the gearbox from someone and some of the items were removed from their bags.

Offline bwaller

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2009, 10:49:55 am »
When we can find that primary drive gear tooth count, it may shed a light on your thinking.

The CB360 mainshaft is too long to drop straight into a 500/550 but with some work I believe it is do-able. A little magic is needed to use the 550 clutch on the 360 shaft, but also do-able.

1st gear on the 360 MS is 16T & the CS mate 40 for a 2.5:1 ratio.... quite short, so they must have have used a different combination because as several of you have mentioned 1st was geared tall and hard to launch.

Offline kayaker43

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2009, 05:35:24 pm »
I finally uncrated my old race motor and split the cases. I posted the Yosh CR 5 speed ratios in the original CR gearbox thread

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=52012.msg645077#msg645077

It seems like that thread should also be moved to the "high performance" forum??
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 09:46:11 pm by kayaker43 »

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2009, 05:24:20 pm »
Yeah,great info,please move to Hi/Po section.Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
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1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2009, 08:36:02 pm »
could be great to learn some details about that 500/600 sohc and see pics

was it an official Honda Britain effort?

now the whole mystery as why Pops called it an IOM cam starts to unfold

TG

TG, there were pics of all three of Alan Jacksons winning bikes in my book. The bike was not factory as far as I know.
It belonged to a dealer in Preston, Lancashire named Bill Head. Apart from Bill Smith Motors, Bill Head was one of the first shops to race Hondas.
It wasn't the first big blood for the CB500 though, Billy Smith took one to victory in the 500cc Production TT a few years Earlier, I have a nice picture of that as well.

Sam. ;)
C95 sprint bike.
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2009, 03:02:54 am »
could be great to learn some details about that 500/600 sohc and see pics

was it an official Honda Britain effort?

now the whole mystery as why Pops called it an IOM cam starts to unfold

TG

TG, there were pics of all three of Alan Jacksons winning bikes in my book. The bike was not factory as far as I know.
It belonged to a dealer in Preston, Lancashire named Bill Head. Apart from Bill Smith Motors, Bill Head was one of the first shops to race Hondas.
It wasn't the first big blood for the CB500 though, Billy Smith took one to victory in the 500cc Production TT a few years Earlier, I have a nice picture of that as well.

Sam. ;)

Do you have scanners there in the UK?  ;)

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2009, 11:32:55 am »
I don't but I know someone who dose, problem is, pictures are in a book. ???

Sam. ;)
C95 sprint bike.
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CB92
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JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2009, 05:23:19 pm »
What?? No excuses young man,we want to see,put Ben to work! ;D ;D ;D,Bill
BentON Racing Website
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2009, 05:35:57 pm »
Yes Billy, It's Ben who has the scanner, I'll have to cut pages out of the book. :( :( :(

Sam. ;)
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2009, 11:28:54 pm »
Yes Billy, It's Ben who has the scanner, I'll have to cut pages out of the book. :( :( :(

Sam. ;)
Sam

dont know what kind of weird scanners you brits use, but there's another exotic possibility:

the digital camera!

hope you heard about it, just palce it in front of said book, press the shutter and hey presto, you'll get a fine picture!

Interesting no? What say U?

 :)

Offline voxonda

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2009, 11:41:12 pm »
could be great to learn some details about that 500/600 sohc and see pics

was it an official Honda Britain effort?

now the whole mystery as why Pops called it an IOM cam starts to unfold

TG

TG, there were pics of all three of Alan Jacksons winning bikes in my book. The bike was not factory as far as I know.
It belonged to a dealer in Preston, Lancashire named Bill Head. Apart from Bill Smith Motors, Bill Head was one of the first shops to race Hondas.
It wasn't the first big blood for the CB500 though, Billy Smith took one to victory in the 500cc Production TT a few years Earlier, I have a nice picture of that as well.

Sam. ;)

Wasn't the bike of Bill Smith the Yoshimura/Dixon build 500?

Rob.
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline bwaller

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2009, 10:18:59 am »
Is this by chance the bike? This is from a very old Yoshimura catalogue.

Edit, taking another shot at improving pic quality.
















































« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 08:31:55 pm by bwaller »

Offline voxonda

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2009, 11:20:22 am »
That is the bike I mean, btw. got the same cataloque.
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2009, 11:41:23 am »
That's really neat!

Brent, if your scanning SW has something like a de-screen option then use it.....

Guess that's not the Bill head Honda in any case, Dale Alexander was the guy who brought Yoshimura to the US (and father of ex motorcycle.com editor sean alexander).

http://www.motorcycle.com/news/news1867.html

Still, that huge drum is pretty amazing, guess it was tons better than the early single disc.

Cant really see if the frame is stock or not, there seems to be an horizontal tube running behind the pipes

Bravo!

TG

Offline voxonda

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Re: HRC Clutch Basket
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2009, 12:52:45 pm »
That is not a drum but a magnesium conical hub with a disc inside and lockheed caliper.
Have no scanner on hand but on page 67 of this beautiful cataloque it is said that Bill Smith took first place on it on the Isle of Man.
Tomorrow will scan that page, has a marvelous picture of that 500 engine on it.

Rob
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.