Topic: A question for our members overseas.

[Caaveman82]

Great... you get healthcare and a waiting list

I would argue it with you but I see your closed to the idea...

Socialized medicine?! What's next?! Communism?!

I'd rather wait for health care that is ranked in the top five than get treated right away by a country ranked in the low 30's, not that our system is fast either.

I dunno if you've ever been to an ER in America but the last time I was in a public hospital I waited three hours with a gash in my wrist that severed a veign requiring 27 stitches while I  bled all over their floor in pain.

[razor02097]

Dude I'm not trying to talk you out of it I applad your enthusiasm... I just think that we are lucky to be born in a country such as America.  There are many that would give anything to be an American citizen.  Just don't renounce your citizenship until you are absolutely 100% sure.

[razor02097]

Great... you get healthcare and a waiting list

I dunno if you've ever been to an ER in America but the last time I was in a public hospital I waited three hours with a gash in my wrist that severed a veign requiring 27 stitches while I  bled all over their floor in pain.

Don't give me that

I work in a hospital and if you come to The University Hospital's ER in Cincinnati with a bleeding wound you are immediately taken to triage to get you stabilized.  Insurance or not.  I DO know that for a fact.

[rhos1355]

Just curious, but if you were in the military, as a career, what kind of healthcare would you be looking at in the states??

Would it be better than "the man on the street" gets, or worse??

[Caaveman82]

Dude I'm not trying to talk you out of it I applad your enthusiasm... I just think that we are lucky to be born in a country such as America.  There are many that would give anything to be an American citizen.  Just don't renounce your citizenship until you are absolutely 100% sure.

I appologize. When ever I bring up the health care issue it's always the same response, as if to say our hospitals are not over crowded or are super fast.

I come from a long line of Military men. Great grandfather Michael joined the Army for citizenship in World War 1. My grandfather Fred took to the Navy in World War 2. The old man was int he Navy in Vietnam. I did the Marine Corps for four years and fought in this bull #$%* excuse of a war. I love America with all my heart. It's just not the country it has the potential to be and it's not going to get any better any time soon. I need some time to play the field and maybe see other countries. I'm not breaking up with my nation, we're just going to sepperate for a while. It's not your fault Minnesota, mommy and daddy just don't love eachother anymore.

[Caaveman82]

Just curious, but if you were in the military, as a career, what kind of healthcare would you be looking at in the states??

Would it be better than "the man on the street" gets, or worse??

During or after?

During you are fully covered, 100%.

After? Well if you were lucky enough to get out without any permenant injuries you are now on your own. Or if you are like me and broke a few ribs, destroyed your hearing, and sustained a few major head injuries that now result in chronic migraines that are demonic and absolutely debilitating, you are lucky enough to have access to the Veterans Administration Hospital. Which is slightly better health care than the free clinic where the homeless go.

The VA is completely underfunded and under staffed.

[Ingrid]

Ever thought about countries like Belgium or the Netherlands. It might not sound as adventurous as Spain or somesuch but loads of people speak Dutch, English, German and French at a reasonable level. Your really close to France, Germany and GB. I don't know, maybe worth a think.
Grtz. Ingrid
I don't know anything about (im)migration rules/laws thought. Beter check that with the government.

[ColinMc]

I lived in Holland for seven years of my life total, 3 when I was too young to remember, and 4 during all of High School. One of the few countries I would move to without a second thought. Although if you think taxes are bad in the US in areas...not even close to Holland.

Great food, everyone speaks english...but if you make the effort and learn some dutch you'll get MUCH better help anywhere you go, plus you can bicycle or ride kick ass Brommers(mopeds) anywhere!

[ChrisR]

I think the issue of taxes in European countries is a bit of a red herring (?) as over-all the standard of living and quality of life in most Northern European countries is amongst the highest in the world. I spent about 4 years living in Sweden off and on - had a house there with my family - and we worked out that we were actually slightly better off there than we were in UK after totting up taxes, child allowances, cheaper fuel, insurances, etc, etc. This was based on the same level of  income that we earned the UK as against the generally much higher Swedish average.
I've just come back from Norway where everything is at least twice as expensive as in the UK (I was living on bread most of the time!) but Norwegians are paid more and have one of the highest standards of living in the world - it's all relative to local conditions.
My wife worked in Italy as a textile designer for a big company near Milan some years ago. She had trouble getting some money from the local bank but you should have seen them shift when they found out who she worked for! Community is everything in Italy and once you've made a few friends and been taken under someone's wing you are fine (if you've got kids you're laughing) - things for the most part just operate on a more personal level.
I don't know if this is helpful at all. Just my experience.
You seem like a resourceful bloke so I'd say go for it and see what happens, it'll certainly be an adventure if nothing else - just keep your options open to returning home when you feel like it. (Some of the saddest people I've seen were some of the Brits I met in Cyprus who had sold up to move to the sun but then found themselves without the means to return home when the novelty wore off, ill health set in or because of  nostalgia for rainy, grey skies! A Cypriot once told me that their idea of paradise was wet, green northern Europe).
Good luck.

[RatBikeRandy]

Try Canada.  It's close and has many of the things that you seem to be looking for.  You live in Minnesota, so the cold shouldn't bother you. 

[my78k]

STAY OUT!!! Just kidding Caave....

Honestly, I don't have the perspective on this to properly comment as I have never lived anywhere else (and have only travelled to the US) but I can say that I am truly happy here...

Sure we are taxed like crazy and our health care system isn't perfect but I wouldn't want to live anywhere else!

I will say though that to say try Canada is a little misleading in that this is a BIG country and is very different depending on locale. For instance Toronto is probably one of the most diverse cities in the world  but an hour or two outside of the city and it is an entirely different ball game!! Also, the cold thing...well if you are talking Winnipeg I'd agree but Toronto is warmer and receives far less snow than Buffalo!

I will say that it is probably the easiest transition though (in terms of foreign countries) due to alot of similarities and also American Influence...

Dennis

[coldright]

Go West, Young Man! 

It sounds like you are yearning for something that Americans have yearned for for generations.  I suggest the West Coast.  You'll find many of the things you're looking for.  Draw backs: cost of living and sometimes hard to find work.  Have you ever been to Oregon or Washington?

[demon78]

Cavey, you know I just had a thought another place you might think about is Portugal I've worked with Portuguese and fairly recently went there for a wedding, every one treated us decently and if we tried to communicate in Portuguese the people would bend over backwards to help another place is Quebec good people, good food, good booze and while I don't know much about Quebec City, Montreal is the place they warned us about as young men (infinitely fascinating) a lot of the people speak english even though it's a french speaking province.
Bill the demon.

[rhos1355]

I lived in Holland for seven years of my life total, 3 when I was too young to remember, and 4 during all of High School. One of the few countries I would move to without a second thought.................
 
Great food ...............

I don't want to hijack this thread, but seriously, after working and living in Holland for 9 years in the 90's the only thing I can say is that Holland is one place you don't want to emigrate to.
The famous Dutch Tolerance is a great myth. I had a Turkish guy working with me. Not the brightest candle on the cake but boy could the guy work!! 5 days at the factory then Sat & Sunday he manned his family's market stall selling spices, olive oil and many Turkish delicacies. Well the dutch guys would continiously ask him when he was gonna eff off back to Turkey!! Openly, with a big smile on their smug stupid faces as if it was the joke of the century. I too was subjected to several anti immigrant taunts, but having been born with a big mouth and having developed a sharp tongue along the way, I fortunately could put them in their place most of the time.
The comment about great food made me laugh too. What? French fries with mayonnaise??
The Inuit have about 20+ words for snow, the dutch have 5 words for johnny foreigner!!

Rant over.

[ColinMc]

Wowsers! By great food I was referring to yes french fries with SEASONED mayonnaise lol...not just plain mayonnaise...and delicious pancakes for dinner mmm, Poffertjes, Stroop wafels, Olliebollen (sp?),  fried food to die for...not to mention great fresh produce and the best cheeses you'll ever eat...i'm sorry you don't like Holland...but as long as he isn't Turkish he should be ok right? lol. I found most dutch people I met to be very tolerant but conservative...but there are a-holes no matter where you go in the world.

The Dutch mentality to the Turkish isn't any worse than the american to mexican thing...you realize that right? Or any country to the minority that comes in...

I lived in both the rural area in Holland, and near the Hague and I can say I loved both areas for different reasons.

All I'm saying is that it was a fun place to live me being an upstate new yorker and moving there. My experience was great...i'm genuinely sorry yours wasn't. I lived there from 89-92 and from 96-01. Can't wait to get the funds back together to go visit again.

[my78k]

Hey come to think of it....My buddy did a business exchange program in Finland and absolutely RAVED about it. He is dying to go back and live there but since he is an entrepreneur with a DJ business and two bakeries on the go it is kind of hard to just pack up and go for him.

They have a great standard of living and are miles ahead of us on environmental issues etc and from what I hear the educational system is top notch!

Dennis

[BobbyR]

I would suggest you look into companies that do Construction projects overseas. Some of thees assignments last a year or two which should give you a good idea of the local culture, etc. I would never advise you not to do this since you will always wonder. My ancestors left Europe and came here, so there is no reason it cannot work the other way around.   

[Raul CB750K1]

Inmigration has always either political or economic motives. Strange as it may sound, people born in Ghana would not leave Ghana if they had a job to make a living....  and I would not move to Ghana for all the money in the World! -well, if my company paid me good money, I would move to Ghana but I would not live in Ghana, I would live in an enclosed bubble in Ghana, if you catch my drift.

Even when I lived in the States I felt as a visitor. My company paid accomodation, car rental, gas, allowance, even medical insurance. For me it was like being on paid vacation, that doesn't count as "moving".


Nobody can choose the country he is born in, nor you can change it, but you can change your citizenship. If you don't like the country you were born and you move abroad and find a better place to live, you just have to go to your embassy and give up citizenship, and then claim citizenship in the country you want to belong to.


For some reason people migrate and live the rest of their lives in a different country, but they never give up citizenship even if they have been born in the filthiest country in the world. Hard to break with your own roots I guess.


So the question is whether you want to really get out of a country you don't like, with all its consequences, or you want to spend a long vacation abroad.

[Raul CB750K1]

Hey come to think of it....My buddy did a business exchange program in Finland and absolutely RAVED about it. He is dying to go back and live there but since he is an entrepreneur with a DJ business and two bakeries on the go it is kind of hard to just pack up and go for him.

They have a great standard of living and are miles ahead of us on environmental issues etc and from what I hear the educational system is top notch!

Dennis

Working for Nokia Siemens I know a thing of two about Finland. Highly educated people, high standards of living, if you can live with the 4-hours-a-day of sunlight half year, and 20-hours-a-day of sunlight the rest of the time, mains plug in the parkings to plug your car engine's heater or it won't start come next morning, and a very high rate of suicides due to the influence of the climate. Apart from that, almost everybody is fluent in english, from the newsstand guy to the taxi driver.


Too late now, there are no hidden paradises, people already know where life is good and they already moved there, no room for anybody else.

[Caaveman82]

Great... you get healthcare and a waiting list

I dunno if you've ever been to an ER in America but the last time I was in a public hospital I waited three hours with a gash in my wrist that severed a veign requiring 27 stitches while I  bled all over their floor in pain.

Don't give me that

I work in a hospital and if you come to The University Hospital's ER in Cincinnati with a bleeding wound you are immediately taken to triage to get you stabilized.  Insurance or not.  I DO know that for a fact.

Well I hope you are never in Dana Point California and need to visit an ER because you will be really dissapointed my friend.

Go West, Young Man! 

It sounds like you are yearning for something that Americans have yearned for for generations.  I suggest the West Coast.  You'll find many of the things you're looking for.  Draw backs: cost of living and sometimes hard to find work.  Have you ever been to Oregon or Washington?

I have been to Washington. Like I said I'm a city guy, I couldn't handle the calm of living in the country, so that takes Washington out of the equasion seeing as how the crime rate in Seattle has been steadily rising for over a decade. Oregon is a beautiful state, but I couldn't handle living there. I can't give you a definate reason why but I just couldn't. Probably because it's too close to CA, which is a state I loathe with my entire existance. No offence to any of our CA members, I am just not a fan.

So I got some pretty insane news in the last few days. My sister is going to be moving to Dubai. She has asked me to come with her. Dubai is not really what I had in mind at all, but it seems that the company she will be working for is willing to take care of her and myself and our kids. So I may end up moving to Dubai for a few years. How's that for a culture shock? Hah. I am still doing the research but I don't think I could let my sister move that far away by herself. She is litterally the cotter pin that is holding my sanity together any more. I'd be a lost little sheep without my lil' sis. If anything happened to her over there I'd never forgive myself.

[Industrial Cafe]

I have one thing to say, America is boring, there's no federal home invasions, no machete wielding factions to contend with.... just boredom.  

Australia sounds nice, I have friends that moved there.
  they don't have any zombies and there's jobs,  and even if you didn't stay, it would be a great life experience.

[Achmed]

Dubai would be weird. They are doing a lot of weird sh!t over there. Way too much money flowing. Honestly, you seem like the type of person who will not be happy anywhere (at least in your current state of mind). One's satisfaction with life has a lot more to do with what is going on inside one's head and body than their actual physical environs. Go ahead and try another part of the world, though. It would be foolish to give up U.S. citizenship. We got a lot of stupid, arrogant people here, but they are around everywhere.

Also, if your sister is an adult she can make her own decisions. I'm not sure what kind of relationship you have with her so I won't comment further.

[Buber]

The famous Dutch Tolerance is a great myth. I had a Turkish guy working with me. Not the brightest candle on the cake but boy could the guy work!! 5 days at the factory then Sat & Sunday he manned his family's market stall selling spices, olive oil and many Turkish delicacies. Well the dutch guys would continiously ask him when he was gonna eff off back to Turkey!! Openly, with a big smile on their smug stupid faces as if it was the joke of the century. I too was subjected to several anti immigrant taunts, but having been born with a big mouth and having developed a sharp tongue along the way, I fortunately could put them in their place most of the time.
The comment about great food made me laugh too. What? French fries with mayonnaise??
The Inuit have about 20+ words for snow, the dutch have 5 words for johnny foreigner!!

Rant over.

Ahem, so maybe you suggest that UK is tolerant? Just check you r newspapers and articles about Polish immigrants now.

Lets face it - WHEREVER you would go outside of your homeland, sooner or later they will call you "f'king immigrant" or something close to that, and it won;t be friendly. That's the human nature.
I think that Caveman just longs for a bit of adventure, for "something else"  and then, since he says that English is not an limiting factor, then there are so many places to go and live...
And people will be fine, as long as you are decent too. Simple as that.

As per "socialism" n Europe versus "freedom" in US - well, let's put it that way - in Europe some nations decided that money and/or personal wealth is not the top thing in their lives, so they set up their countries accordingly. In US, from my humble observations, the pressure "TO HAVE" is about 300% more than it is in Europe, where many people prefer "TO BE" attitude.
Yes, they pay more taxes, but they don't need to fret every evening if they will be fired, or if they will have good enough treatment in hospital without additional costs. yes, they will have more expensive fuel, but in the long shot it is a personal question what do you want for yourself - cheaper car with cheaper gasoline and nerves and "rat race" all the time, or the proverbial nissan micra 1.0 and a glass of cheap (albeit good) wine in the evening without worry about your retirement.

Everything is a matter of choice. It is good, when it is informed and conscious choice, though.

[demon78]

Right on Buber 1+ there is just to much emphasis put on money in North America and how do you make money, mainly by sitting in a office contributing to the fat crisis or sitting in a car doing the same.
Bill the demon

[rhos1355]

Ahem, so maybe you suggest that UK is tolerant? Just check you r newspapers and articles about Polish immigrants now.

Not at all, mate. I'm not suggesting any such thing. Britain has never been a welcoming nation. We fought the Saxons, Romans, Vikings, Normans and so on when they came in their thousands.
But we do call a spade a spade, unlike some nations that profer an image of 'welcomers' when in actual fact they're not. That's sheer hypocrisy.
Wanna see you guys when ½ million+ Belorussians pitch up on your front doorstep. For whatever reason.
Having said that, I have spoken to a couple of small businessmen, farmers and the like who have said that they would never employ another englishman again, after having experienced the honesty and sheer hard graft of the Poles.
Maybe that's what caused the animosity........you work too hard.