Author Topic: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?  (Read 7761 times)

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Offline Dave-and-his-550

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I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« on: August 03, 2009, 08:47:57 PM »
I pulled the fork tube, and thought it should be easy taking the seal out now because I can just grab hold of the whole thing...Well that surely didn't play out so well...




I think this thing is glued in. I started to pry it off with a hardened steel pick, but I don't want to score the aluminum so I did not do it to much, but it is REALLY stuck there...Should I try puttin this end in boiling water, or maybe use some type of chemical that softens or eats away rubber?

On another topic, my other fork hex nut is REALLY stuck in there. I slipped once and now it's a little stripped. I know how important it is NOT to strip this bolt. I've tried PB blaster on it but would heating it up or freezing this help?

Here is the condition of the hex bolt:



I also checked the movement of my triple tree now that I have the wheel and forks off, it does move hard, and stops in the center. I read this is an indication that the bearings are shot and should be replaced, correct? I will probably get one of the Tapered Roller Bearings.

Offline kghost

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2009, 09:25:12 PM »
Try the seals in boiling water.

I've drilled the head off that bolt on the bottom with no problem
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Offline GammaFlat

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2009, 09:33:28 PM »
It may be that you don't have any glue on your seals.  Many here on the forum have had luck using screwdrivers, picks, etc. but the only way I have gotten them out is with a seal puller like this:  http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00970995000P?keyword=seal+puller 

Even with that tool, you have to be careful to not scar up the top of the lower leg when you're prying.  I used a tire flat across the top of the lower and actually modified the seal puller with a grinder so it had a "notch" where I could catch the edge of the flat. 

The bolt....  I just did 2 honda shocks and 2 Kawasaki shocks and I had one of each give me a hard time. 

Tip #1: I stood the shock upside down and sprayed 50% acetone / 50% trans fluid right on the bolt.  Let it sit for a bit.  I'm not sure why but that combination seems superior to other ones I've used. 

Tip #2: Use a rattle gun.  I tried a 110 volt impact driver and it would not do it.  I then used an air impact driver with my compressor topped off (125 psi) and the gun on high.  After I got them apart, I learned that the Kaw forks have an odd shape on the end of one of the inner tubes (the one you're trying to hold still).  I'm sure Kawasaki makes an expensive tool to "grab on" to the end of the tube while you rotate the allen bolt.  For us Honda folks, it's a broom stick.  It will want to spin anyway but lodge in real good and hit it hard with the rattle gun. 

In the very worst case, I'm thinking you'll be able to drill out the bolt and just need a new bolt - don't over drill and take out fork leg material. 
K6
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2009, 09:34:42 PM »
If you take a punch and hammer and distort the seals downward in one spot, it pulls the walls of the seal inward near the bends. This will usually let you get a small flat-blade screwdriver in the edge of the seal and get a grip on it. After you're done, sand those chips and nicks smooth with 150 grit, clean well.  ;)
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2009, 09:57:14 PM »
The little Snap -On stud extractors work well on these bolts when they do this to us,Do both ever come out easy?,My1/2 impact wouldn't budge the last one these things took out.Bill
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Offline the technological J

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2009, 10:00:22 PM »
i boiled mine and they came out fairly easy... i just used a screwdriver to pry them... they didnt budge before
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Offline Hush

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2009, 10:28:10 PM »
Yes correct, if the steering head likes to cntre its self it is time for new bearings.
Up end the fork leg into an old pot full of water and boil for a few good minutes, this will soften the seal and make for easy removal.
Just looking at your seal, it seems to be fitted in the wrong grove?
Well on my 650 that would be way too far down into the fork leg, shouldn't it be in the top grove?!
For the bolt removal, alloy expands under heat so again put the end into the boiling water and heat it up, you wont hurt the alloy and the bolt should come free.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Dave-and-his-550

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 11:08:53 PM »
Well this is where I'm at now, so far I've boiled the seal end in water. The seal came off in pieces...And I had a lot of rubber left over stuck on the sides and underneath the lip. I've sprayed on gasket remover and that seemed to help, but from the pictures, u can tell I have a lot of rubber under there to remove still and I'm not sure how to reach in there. I'll boil it again.

Didn't someone use wintergreen oil once to soften rubber?





Im using a few of these picks, a dremel with a metal brush attachment and elbow grease.



Hush: I'm not sure about that groove thing? It was sitting over that large lip in the photos. Seems to me like the correct spot. Now I bet that'll make puttin on a new seal a pain in the ass! I know it helps to use oil, and also a pvc fitting to slide it over evenly. That'll be fun... 

Offline Dave-and-his-550

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2009, 11:48:13 PM »
Ok here's a new idea, can I just use an Oxy-Acetylene Torch and melt off the remaining rubber?  ;D

Offline Hush

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2009, 11:49:36 PM »
The 550 might be different as they are an older bike but I still think that seal is in too deep, the 550 boys on here will put me right shortly. ;D
Get a really fine drill and go through that seal ridge until you can grab it with a set of pliers and rip it out, damn that's one tough son of a #$%* seal you got there mate.

I just checked my Clymer bible and if that was a 650 that seal would only be that deep if it was the wrong size (too small) or was hammered in during a very violent insertion....but as I said maybe the 550 is really different.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 11:53:11 PM by Hush »
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2009, 11:55:32 PM »
torch it

+ put some rags over the edge of the leg and bend it with a screwdriver doing the leverage

TG

Offline Hush

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 11:58:34 PM »
Does the 550 have gaiters or dust caps that fit on the inside of the fork leg?
Only reason I can see for that upper slot unless as I said the seal is incorrectly fitted. ???
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2009, 07:52:13 AM »
hello guys, good morning to ya'all

the groove is for the safety circlip,


TG

Offline HondaMan

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2009, 08:11:32 AM »
Ummm....I think you have torn all the upper and inner rubber off of the seals' metal frame: it looks like the metal frame is still there, with the oil seal portion of it in between that frame and the inner fork leg. That needs to come out. It's a pressed, sheet-metal steel piece: you can verify that by touching a magnet to it. The leg is made of aluminum, so the magnet won't stick to the leg: the seal's frame is steel and the magnet will stick to that.

Study your new seal and you will see what I'm getting at: the seal is an L-shaped (in cross section) stamping called the "seal frame", on which is applied the layers of rubber that seal the surfaces. In the center of the seal is the "lip" (sometimes two or three lips), or "wiper" part of the seal that wipes the oil off of the tube as it moves upward (out of the leg) and the dirt as it moves downward (into the leg). On the outer surface of the seal is the rubber part that seals the inner circumference of the lower leg.

Here's another way you can think of this: the lower damper section (which is presently being held in by the bolt you can't get out, on the bottom) comes out toward your face in these pictures. If that steel ring remains there, you cannot get the damper out: that's an indication that something is amiss. When they build the fork, the damper goes in, the bolt gets tightened down below, then the tube goes in, the seal is next, the snap ring last.

Variations: If the tube is the kind that is smooth all the way to the end (i.e., no damping parts on the outside of the tube), then the seal and snap ring can usually go in first, then oil up and slide the tube in, then tighten the damper's bolt to hold it all together. (I'm not sure which arrangement your fork has?). Some forks require the damper and tube to be assembled and tightened before the seal can be slid into place.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 08:21:13 AM by HondaMan »
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Offline 754

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2009, 09:11:22 AM »
Here is a trick I been using 4 years..

 Take either a very sharp awl or small drill 1/16 will do. put 2 holes in the seal frame, near the shoulder, 180 degrees apart.

 This may be harder on this one as the seals appear to be upside sown.

 Insert two sheetmetal screws in the 2 holes, select your screw carefully, you want it to JAM in the hole.

 Now get a burr free shim block about 3/8 thick and a claw hammer.

 Use shim to protect the top surface, use claw hammer to draw up seal part way, then go to second bolt, repeat. a few pulls and it is out. :o
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Offline Toxic

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2009, 10:03:20 AM »
This is a new cleaver method.
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Offline Dave-and-his-550

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2009, 01:18:48 PM »
Ummm....I think you have torn all the upper and inner rubber off of the seals' metal frame: it looks like the metal frame is still there, with the oil seal portion of it in between that frame and the inner fork leg.

Crap, really?! Ya I think you're right. A magnet does stick to it...Once I unscrewed the hex bolt, the fork pipe came right out with the damper. So nothing was stopped by that ring. Well, I guess I could get one of those oil seal pullers.

Also, my damper looks different then the one pictured in the honda service manual. Whats that about?



Also, anybody know a source on the west coast that sells tapered bearing kits?

 

Offline mystic_1

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2009, 01:41:42 PM »
Well, I guess I could get one of those oil seal pullers.


Just use your biggest flathead screwdriver, with a piece of wood underneath to protect the fork leg, and pry that puppy out.

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Offline Dave-and-his-550

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2009, 01:47:14 PM »
Ya, now that I know it's not supposed to be in there, I'll use more force. I like 754's idea. I might try putting the tube in a vice, drilling two holes and inserting the sheet metal screws.

Offline Dave-and-his-550

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2009, 02:47:43 PM »
Update!!

Sweet Jesus I got it! I used a hardened steel chisel and a hammer. I had the chisel end underneath the seal, and the business end I hit down on with a hammer. Distorted the ring to all #$%* but it came out! And with less then a scratch on the tube.

Pics related:





*Cue applause*

Thank you, thank you. I would first like to thank the SOHC Forum members and it's moderators for their help. I would like to thank O'reilly Auto Parts for the chisel set. I would like to thank my Mother for continuing inspiration. I would like to thank my producer, director and others as well.

(Walk off stage to the left)

*Cue applause*
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:37:14 PM by Dave-and-his-550 »

Offline Simpson

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2009, 02:58:09 PM »
Bravo Bravo  ;D
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Offline CBJoe

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2009, 03:17:43 PM »
Just remember that speech when your rich and famous and leave us all behind  ;D

This tread should go into the FAQ......  lot of good suggestions along with the final method of removal.

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Offline Dave-and-his-550

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2009, 04:33:17 PM »
This tread should go into the FAQ......  lot of good suggestions along with the final method of removal.

Cheers, Joe

I agree, this thread could be merged with the Fork FAQ maybe?

The third picture in my previous post isn't showing up, so here it is again, notice that after I hit it from the bottom with that chisel, there's hardly a scratch on the fork tube:



This method worked great for me, but probably cause I was hitting directly on the metal ring, AFTER I scrapped off all the rubber (I really thought that metal ring was part of the fork tube before)  ::)

So I'm not so sure how well it will work for an intact seal.
 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:36:49 PM by Dave-and-his-550 »

Offline mystic_1

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2009, 06:35:38 PM »
I have a flat head screwdriver that is about a foot long.  It's maybe a #3 head?  Anyway the wide tip spreads the load out so that the ring tends to distort less, and with the length you can pry pretty good.  If you want you can use a length of pipe as an entension handle by slipping it over the end of the screw driver.  As long as you protect your fulcrum point with wood, rubber, plastic, or something you're good to go.

Usually what happens is that the seal distorts a bit at the point you're prying, as described by Hondaman earlier.  The seal's frame then stops being a nice straight cylinder and goes all parallelogram, which pulls the sides in and releases the rest of the seal.

BTW looking back at your original pics I am about 90% certain your seals were installed upside down.  The flat side should go up, the "recessed" side goes down.  Put another way, there's (usually) a spring inside the rolled edge of the inner lip of the seal (wiper).  This spring should be on the "wet" side of the area being sealed, i.e. the inside of the fork tube.

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Offline Dave-and-his-550

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Re: I think my fork seals are glued in...Ideas?
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2009, 06:44:58 PM »
Thnx for the post mystic. Just to confirm the new seal I got does have two metal rings. One on each side. The 'flat' side of the ring goes up towards the bike, and also has little numbers and lettering on it, while the recessed side goes down, into the fork. Here is a picture:



Just as you stated above, this is the correct installation. SO, if my old seal was in there wrong, I guess somebody DID in fact work on this bike before. From what I could tell by how dirty it was once I removed parts and such, I was almost certain it's never been messed with before.