Topic: 1/4 Century PENNZOIL TEST near completion.

[754]

I finally got my 836cc tore down
 It was running (not every year) from 1982 to 2007, when it finally quit.
 It had seen a bit of highway use, at the very beginning , and just before the end.
 Ran it a lot at the drags, mostly 1/8 mile.
 Ran it in weather over 100 degrees and quite a lot in temps down around 20 degrees, 5 mile rides, jusr getting nice and warm.

 I usually ran it very hard, lots of high RPM shifting, but only when it was warmed up..The only time i ever took it easy was on the Bonneville trip in 07, I knew it was getting very tired.

 The plan was to fully measure and document the wear in the engine, I ran only Pennzoil, made sure no other oil product was used. from 20W to 50  or 60W.

 So far I have taken the whole topend off, and just measured pistons & bores with mic and inside telescopic guage.  I will remeasure with a bore guage and get a bit more accurate info.

 One hole had more wear, not surprising as all the pipes on the turbo header bunch up in front of 3 & 4, and keep them hot.

 It ends up I did not have forged pistons as I thought, I think they are Action 4s, and are made by ART.

 Wurst hole/piston clearance I could find was .0037 clearance, the others were a thou or so tighter. I am thinking they were set up at .0015 or .002, not sure.. Anyway, the bores look really nice not scratched, and it had 1 pce oil rings  , but I think they are wore out..

 More info to come, some nastiness in the cam dept..

 Bottom end is pretty tight!

 Guess I am sticking with Pennzoil..

[MJL]

This will be interesting. What happened for it to "quit"?  How many miles on this motor?

[Alan F.]

What was your oil change proceedure, anything uncommon? And what was your filter of choice?

Great thread idea.
-A

[HavocTurbo]

754 you are amazing. I don't think I'd have the discipline nor the memory to compare specs from build to build.

Especially after 25 years!

I'm interested in what your turbo set-up looks like. PM me pics if you like so as not to get off topic.

Hope your top end isn't too trashed.

And if you answer all of the previous questions I'll not have much more.

[NitroHunter]

Did you bring this bike to the races in Seattle?
Sorry to hear about the cam issues, was that your RC 315?

[754]

Nitro, it was a Turbo header, that ran into a pipe and megaphone.. will try to get it to 1080 and post a pic, he has pics of the motor and components as we opened it up.
 Yeah same one I took to Seattle, when we met you way back. (yeah it took out the 315, but I found another one)

I tried to change oil regularily, but did not always happen, I think I used stock & aftermarket filters, probably every 2nd or third change. But since around the nineties somewhere, I never ran air cleaners, I think I ran stacks in 85 still, so no cleaners a lot of the time. We ran it a bit on the dirt oval as well, but not with other bikes.

 When I rode it to Bonneville in 07, I knew it was near the end, did not know if I would make it back. It was starting to really rev up high at soplights and started having lots of blowby, in fact if I did not get thru first traffic light, I would kill the engine. I did not realize bit the intake rubbers were severely cracked & sucking air.
 It was an 836, with cam, springs and Weber carbs, on the way back from Bonneville it still got slightly better mileage than a 78 750  K with a header on it..
 On the trip I had a sticking valve and it would start clacking. I got back and a few weeks later we went on a poker run..  it had been running alright, but at one point I passed a car it lost power, and started running real bad and got noisy. I was near the next stop, limped over there and was a bit worried. After we ate and it was cool it ran ok for a few miles, then we headed up a steep pas.. it started loosing power I dropped a few gears, it got worse and noisy and starting to billow smoke out the top breather, so I shut it down.. got back to town .. downhill most of 8 miles, altho I did push 3/4 mile uphill at first.. .. then I rode the last mile or so to a gas station.

.. So then it sat, till last Saturday, but meanwhile I been buying parts to do at least one  970cc, and am getting parts to build another one..
 The 836cc was way past teardown time, but I always liked to see how much they would take.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

That 315 cam is the same one you can get from Dynoman. Tell me about the power band it had?

[754]

Really, I will look into that.
 The cam in that motor was not endstamped but etched and also said Engel RC 315, got it new in 61 or 82

 I am itching to get 1080 to try one in his big motor. as he has a milder cam in it.

 I had stock valves and head, it would really scream at upper rpm, but what I liked even more was the torque it made,  you could shift early like 4 or 5 K, and it would still pull hard.. the carbs may have helped that a bit, big accelerator pumps in the Webers, and it had 30mm throats. The turbo pipe had small primaries, I am thinking that may help midrange.

 I would actually give up some topend to try a single Weber, I think it would make more torque, and get in the 60 +mpg range..

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Frank,

I spent 1 hour on the phone earlier this week with Buzz @ Dynoman. He explained how they were in close proximity to RC, Iskaderian and others back in the day. Very enlightening hour. He said they got the rights to the 295 and 315 after RC. We talked about my 900 and my 1000 projects. We talked about how it is more than the lift and duration, it can be more a function of the lobe profile and this is where these 2 cams differ from the others. Made sense to me. While others may have a higher lift or longer duration the RC cams were designed for the overall power/torque thats needed for the street or drag strip vs my Yoshimura Daytona that was designed only/mostly to produce high hp for continued high rpms of a wide open track like Daytona. I wrote down some numbers and I hope I have them right. the 295 is 382/357 while the 315 is 362/362. If you need to talk with them you'll have to email. If/when you get a response you will have to leave a number and a good time for a return call. They will not mess with the phone during the day as they are too busy. You'd better be ready to answer an unidentified number too.     

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Interesting note about Pennzoil and Quaker State oils. In one of our classes in pharmacy school we actually briefly discussed molecular structure of oils. Back in the day when these 2 companies used crude drilled from Pennsylvania deposits they were supposed to be superior oils due to the Penn. crude having longer molecular structures than all the others. Not likely the case these days with everyone buying oil from all over the world then controlled refining to such crazy things as that new fangled "synthetic" where all the molecules are equal length.

[754]

I had a cam, might have been marked Luther, pulled like mad up top, but was a drag under 5 or 6K.. no fun if you were not revving.. I half expected the RC to be like that, but it was not..

I can remember running thru the gears with a buddy on a early 600 Monster with pipes.. we were pretty even, but he is a 100 lbs lighter than me, so he would get about a length and stay there.. right thru the rpms..

 I would have got him on the line, cuz the Duc wants to wheelie..
 But I am sorta thinking, most 4s would not pull that hard against a twin at 3 or 4k..


 The guy I know with the 71 750 he had since new, he figures around 160 K on it, cases never split.. , he only ran Quaker State oil.. ( I used to too)

[1080]

754's 836 would beat my Action 4 836 with a mild Kenny Harman cam with tripple valve springs. Head was stock & stock carbs. 754 was heavier guy , but I had a heavier Amen frame. My motor still runs. Less abused

[1080]

More tear down photo's

[1080]

We could of removed the motor faster had I helped, but 754 wanted to do by himself like he did in the old days. Gees these motors are getting heavier

[1080]

RC starter plug & one bolt holding starter cover.

[HavocTurbo]

Holy #$%*!!!

[754]

Yeah, kinda got a little sick when I saw that..would have  been much worse if I had not found a spare on here a year ago.. i am a bit depressed..

 i was actually hoping the crank was bad and cam was good, would have preffered that.

 Did you see how good the heads fit in the Rubbermaid box.

 Might be pics of the pipes up 2 nite, forgot to photo the bad O rings.. got 3  worse other pieces (not this engine) to take pics of for the , "Offerings to the GOD of SPEED" thread..

[1080]

One of the best looking pipes for a 750.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Frank,

How does the wear on the other lobes compare? Any way you can test spring pressures all the way across?

[754]

1 & 2 intake lobes are both like that. The journals are really good, most lobes look good, 1 I think was a bit black like it was just starting to dry up.

 My o rings on the oil studs were very distorted, will try to get a pic on, they may have moved and blocked it I am not sure. I did have valves starting to stick, that may have helped it along. 1 & 2 intakes are not stuck right now but I think the stems are crudded up.

 Nobody that heard that motor before I left thought it would make it to Bonnevile..

[1080]

Distorted 'O' rings photo.

[754]

Bumping to bring up pipe pics.