Topic: 550 Engine Guru's, I Need Your Help!

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

***Scroll to the bottom of this page, I have consolidated most of the previous posts into one to make it easier***



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Nevermind, got it. Anyone know how to get the pin out of the main selector fork? I removed the clip and the pin is in there tight, tried a magnet. Whats the trick?

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Rotor ok to stay on,check for a 6mm bolt hiding in there,all bolts out should be ok.

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Can't see in pic,you got the tranny linkage off,shift drum stopper etc.?,Bill

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

Yeah, complete linkage/primary shaft... all those side goodies are out. timing plate off...

all the obvious bolts are out, there was one under the oil pan area, got it.

Is it sealed tight? Should I start wacking the bottom case with a hammer & wood block?

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

Nevermind, couple hammer whacks did it.

BUT, instead of starting a new thread, I'll just ask my engine question...

I can't get the center selector fork off the drum. I got the little clip out, and the pin is down in there tight. I thought it would fall out. Whats the trick?

[bryanj]

Waggle the fork about whilst using the magnet, it dont have to come all the way out to release the fork

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

Waggle the fork about whilst using the magnet, it dont have to come all the way out to release the fork

Ta-da! got it, thanks! I'm dissapointed to say the bottom end looks good. I was hoping the bunk shifting and weird 'tin can bouncing around the bottom end sound' would be easily explained by some horrific sight when I lifted the case, but so far it all looks kosher  

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

Bottom case off, the mains seem to have a slight polished look in the center. Should they all still be dull grey, or is some 'shiny-ness' normal?

Other than that I can't find a damn thing that looks out of whack down here. There is a very pronounced 'clink clink clink', with no particular rhythm or pattern, coming from the front-left area of the bottom end during deacceleration, especially when I'm riding 2 up.



There is no wear on either side of the cases from primary chain slap. As best I can tell the primary hasn't rubbed anywhere.

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

Bump, with another picture... countershaft bearing surface. This looks suspect to me. Read above post for symptoms.

[NickC]

I don't think there is anything wrong with your bearings....

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

Alrighty. I did some searching, that trans surface isn't a rotating one, the bearing just sits there. So that is ok.

Any other possible culprits? I measured the selector drum and forks, both within specs, although the drum has some surface rusting. Clutch plates measure .10, with .01 before they're out of service limit. Trans gears look ok, so I'm thinking either the surface rust on the clutch plates or some kind of tranny wear I cant see might be responsible for my extra clunky shifting.

As for the 'clinking' sound of something bouncing around the bottom, what about the cam chain? I overlooked this because I replaced the tensioner with a new unit, but this chain esentially ran with no tensioner for who knows how long (old one was wiped clean). Could that result in intermittent clinky noises from the bottom?

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

-----> bump for the midnight oil crew

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

This thread must be all over the place because I've got no response, so I'll try to consolidate all the info into one post:

Symptom 1:

Very hard, clunky shifting, more so than should be expected. When in neutral and clutch pulled in, downshifting into first causes the drive chain to jerk (I noticed this in video of me on the bike, could be normal). The bike will buck or jerk hard if I release throttle on acceleration.

Symptom 2:

On deacceleration, especially when riding 2 up, there is a hollow 'clink clink clink' sound coming from the bottom end. There is no pattern to the sound, just comes at rapid succession. The longer I ride the worse it seems to get.

What I've tried to do about it:

I've posted these issues before. A clutch adjustment made it possible to find neutral, but had little effect on the clunkyness of shifting. No effect on the hollow clinking sound. The difference is now I have the CASES SPLIT! This is the time to find the problem!

Clutch friction plates measure in spec, with light surface rusting on steel plates.
Selector forks not bent, measure in spec.
Selector drum measures in spec.
No wear on the cases from primary chain slap.

I will follow through on anything you suggest for me to inspect

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Lets see,symptom 1,chain will do that,don't deaccel after sudden accel,Why?,deaccel after acc shifts everything other direction and for# 2 when accelerating slack is taken up; the cam chain ,drive chain ,primary chains,etc,if worn out when you back off throttle they can slap.Cam chain if run no tension probably worn out  ,more work,but you can check,Bill

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

I do understand these bikes shift mechanisims are clunky by modern standards. But my shifting is clunky compared to other vintage Hondas I've ridden. It doesn't click into gear, it 'thunks' into gear. You can feel it through the whole bike, it's jarring.

As for the hollow clinking noise, it's gotta be some kind of slapping. I have a brand new tensioner, but the old one was disintegrated and the bike ran with no tensioner for who knows how long. I'll replace the cam chain and pray it solves that problem.

So what about shifting? Is there something else I should measure in the clutch set up, or other damage I should be hunting for? There seems to be a slight amount of up/down play in the shifting forks when they are in position on the tranny. May be normal?

[paulages]

I do understand these bikes shift mechanisims are clunky by modern standards. But my shifting is clunky compared to other vintage Hondas I've ridden. It doesn't click into gear, it 'thunks' into gear. You can feel it through the whole bike, it's jarring.

As for the hollow clinking noise, it's gotta be some kind of slapping. I have a brand new tensioner, but the old one was disintegrated and the bike ran with no tensioner for who knows how long. I'll replace the cam chain and pray it solves that problem.

So what about shifting? Is there something else I should measure in the clutch set up, or other damage I should be hunting for? There seems to be a slight amount of up/down play in the shifting forks when they are in position on the tranny. May be normal?

actually, i have a '77 cb550F in my shop right now with 8000 miles that looks like it just came off the showroom floor, and it shifts unbelievably smooth. smoother than most modern bikes i've ridden. i've had ducati riders comment with disdain at how smooth mine (the 718 engine) shifts. the point is, if all is well these are pretty smooth shifting transmissions. any clunkiness is usually due to clutch issues.

now, to answer your questions:

1: i'm guessing this is still a clutch issue. it sounds like your clutch isn't disengaging fully when you pull the lever in. you might have warped metal plates or the friction plates might be grabbing too much. the rust probably doesn't help. if they're flat, sand the surfaces before reassembly. bad oiling? honda discs are the best route. EBC or barnett discs are really grabby for the first few hundred miles. that said, they work great though.

2: could be any of the chains. there's no primary tensioner in these engines. have you measured the length of the chain against specs? without hearing the clink, it's hard to guess here, but if you check everything against specs and replace everything that's worn, you'll have a good engine.

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

Good to know there is a chance of having a well shifting bike.

I did measure the clutch springs, in spec. Have not checked for plate warping, so I'll do that. Having seen the tranny work with my own eyes I agree, it's clutch related. I cant guess what though, so far it's all been in spec. Would shimming the stock springs a little be a reasonable experiment to try?

I couldn't find any specs in the book for the primary chain to measure.

Also, as for possible poor oiling in the clutch, isn't there a method of adding oiling holes to the basket? Could have sworn I've read about that somewhere.

[paulages]

Good to know there is a chance of having a well shifting bike.

I did measure the clutch springs, in spec. Have not checked for plate warping, so I'll do that. Having seen the tranny work with my own eyes I agree, it's clutch related. I cant guess what though, so far it's all been in spec. Would shimming the stock springs a little be a reasonable experiment to try?

I couldn't find any specs in the book for the primary chain to measure.

Also, as for possible poor oiling in the clutch, isn't there a method of adding oiling holes to the basket? Could have sworn I've read about that somewhere.

hondaman posted about this oiling mod for the 750, but i don't know whether or not the 550 can benefit in the same way. i have both baskets at the shop- i'll look and see if the oil holes are the same. if your clutch springs are in spec, i wouldn't think shimming would be necessary. i'd look at your plates and discs first.

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Those metal plates probably the cause,if warped will drag esp when hot,couldn't find specs for warpage,but replace any that are,also make sure idle not too high,assemble wet,Good Luck,Bill

[Jonesy]

Look in the "Thoughts of Hondaman" FAQ. He mentions warpage of the plates in the 550 potentially causing all sorts of issues.

Is your 550 lowered or have a loose drive chain? When it goes over bumps the drive chain can slap the sheetmetal chain guide attached to the backside of the sprocket cover and make a rather loud "ta-tink" noise.

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

I'll measure plates tonight, sounds like a possible culprit.

I can't find Hondamans post, I looked through the 3 pages of 'thoughts of hondaman'. Maybe he'll chime in  
I keep the chain adjusted, usually about every 300 - 500 miles. Also, no chain guard on this bike.

Not to open a can of worms, but I run 10-40 Yamalube. Would going up 20-50 improve clutch performance at operating temp?

[Jonesy]

Keep in mind that the 550 is a wet-sump motor, so if you run 20W-50 you might sap a bit of HP from it. There is no windage tray in the stock motor.

Feel free to PM HondaMan with any questions. He's very good about replying back.

[paulages]

just lay the plates on a piece of glass. if they don't lie completely flat, replace them.

[bryanj]

If the tensioner was shot replace the blade, the cushion, the chain, make sure the blade end caps are in the mechanism and check the mechanism carefully.

Personally when that far down i would replace the primary chain which wears badly with out of balance carbs plus all the seals.

check the side faces of selector forks for blueing or damage and internal radius for wear.

shells look perfect.

On rebuild be scrupilously clean ESPECIALLY make sure no gasket pieces fall into oilways that feed cam.

With these old bikes you need to turn both trans shafts to engage gears and when rolling it is "clunky"

[B.O.X.N.I.F.E.]

If the tensioner was shot replace the blade, the cushion, the chain, make sure the blade end caps are in the mechanism and check the mechanism carefully.

Personally when that far down i would replace the primary chain which wears badly with out of balance carbs plus all the seals.

check the side faces of selector forks for blueing or damage and internal radius for wear.

shells look perfect.

On rebuild be scrupilously clean ESPECIALLY make sure no gasket pieces fall into oilways that feed cam.

With these old bikes you need to turn both trans shafts to engage gears and when rolling it is "clunky"

I replaced the entire tensioner assembly with a good used one, along with a brand new OEM slipper. So we're good on that front.

Will replace cam chain. Primary looks spendy! 

Here is a picture of the center fork, faces of the others look the same. The fork ends meaured in spec, no specs I could find for inside radius of forks: