Author Topic: Clutch Adjustment Sadness...cannot get it to disengage (Read 17145 times)

Tower · « **Reply #50 on:** August 11, 2009, 08:46:14 PM »

Shifting from 1st to 2nd requires sliding the most number of transmission gears, which puts a lot of wear and tear on the left shift fork and dogs. As Mystic_1 suggests, its a very common wear problem, especially in bikes ridden hard.

However, MCRider has a point... there is still a chance that the problem is the clutch not disengaging fully. Here's your chance, Ron, to go back into the clutch and rotate the pressure plate 180o to see if that helps.

Ron, is there a chance that the oil was too viscose/gelled causing the oil shortage in the clutch? If so, some of that thickened oil would also be making the gears difficult to slide and/or could be clogging the dogs.

Although its not likely to be the cable, its cheaper to try a replacment first, before cracking the cases.

hafaliter · « **Reply #51 on:** August 11, 2009, 08:53:35 PM »

Check the clutch basket slots for wear. You may observe indentations caused by plates and discs. Good luck finding a new one if this is the problem

ron.cieri.313 · « **Reply #52 on:** August 11, 2009, 09:00:46 PM »

Thanks guys...I am bumming...

And yes, it is certainly possible that gelled oil caused the oil shortage because I never found a "hard" blockage like a loose piece of gasket or whatever. How would i clean that out short of cracking the cases...just keep flushing with clean oil?

...and I will definitely rotate the clutch as its the simplest fix left.

The problem with a new clutch cable is that I have to order a custom length one. I have plus 10" cable on it now to accomodate the ape hangers. I guess it might be worth it but the clutch lever seems pretty firm unless I'm just not getting the lever travel I need at the clutch.

Taking the engine off and cracking the cases seems to be a fairly daunting proposition...I guess I'll have to think about cut & running or going through with it.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #53 on:** August 11, 2009, 09:42:34 PM »

The overlength cable could be contributing to your problem, as the extra length means you may have binding issues between the inner and outer cable where the extra length loops around. Remove any ties holding the clutch cable to the frame and make sure it's routed as loosely as possible with no sharp turns or bends, then see how your clutch performs.

mystic_1

ron.cieri.313 · « **Reply #54 on:** August 13, 2009, 04:19:25 PM »

Right, I had a bound clutch cable on my 450 and it caused alot of problems so I've been pretty careful about that but will double check.

I took a couple days off, and tonight went back in and started disassembled.

Another double check, when installed, the conical washer under the lock nut that fits over the shaft...the inside hole should be tapering to the outside/away from the engine, correct?

I'm also thinking about ordering some new clutch springs?...the currently measure barely/maybe 30.5MM...good idea?

thx...ron.

Tower · « **Reply #55 on:** August 13, 2009, 10:18:32 PM »

Lock nut taper to the outside - check.

Spring free length:
for K5 clutch should be 1 3/8" (35mm, 220 lb), will also use 33mm new, replace below 31 mm
for K6 and F clutch should be 1 1/2" (38mm, 240 lb), will also use 35.5 mm new, replace below 33 mm.

Edit: Note, K5 is short clutch design B, K6 is long clutch design C

ron.cieri.313 · « **Reply #56 on:** August 14, 2009, 06:36:20 AM »

Hmmm, if I have the long basket and shorter springs...can that impact disengagement? (please say yes)

Tower · « **Reply #57 on:** August 14, 2009, 09:02:28 AM »

Unfortunately, no.

Its more likely to cause slippage.

Edit: But, if you have the short clutch and try to use long springs.....probably yes, if you could torque them in, that is.

ron.cieri.313 · « **Reply #58 on:** August 14, 2009, 11:04:55 AM »

Darn...well, I order new metal plates in case the old ones are warped.

I rotated the pressure plate and have yet to reassemble.

If no luck, then I will replace the double center back with a single and add back another single plate and friction disc...and try again.

If that don't work, I have the friction disc I took out and everything "original" is going back in hoping it works cuz the oil lubrication issue was rectifiec.

...eventually when the snow starts to fall, the cases are coming apart...wtf...I mean, if i screw it up what have I lost?

750goes · « **Reply #59 on:** September 13, 2009, 08:58:17 PM »

ron,

any further results on this problem, I am suffering something similar, but only with respect to the clutch making a noise when releasing at the lever...

ron.cieri.313 · « **Reply #60 on:** September 14, 2009, 06:39:08 AM »

Yes, funny someone should reply today cuz i was going to start a new post...I'm not sure it will help with your problem although, I have gotten very good at taking apart and re-assembling these clutches as I've done it about 8 times in the last month...haven't broken a lifter plate yet!

...but haven't solved the problem either...I've tried lots of configurations of friction and metal plates...even bought new metal plates...I have ditched the double center plate but I've isolated my problem or at least have better defined it.

Its not that my tranny is getting hung up in neutral...its that i no longer have a second gear!

current status is that I took out for ride last night after re-assembling the clutch..boy, she's riding good except for this problem...anyways....counted my gears as i shifted up and realized that when I thought i was double shifting into second I was shifting into third already. So I can shift from neutral, to first, first up to second -- but it doesn't gears never engage/it acts like a false neutral...hence the confusion...from here into third (with some clatter sometime but that may be because I just basically skipped a gear, so now I keep the rpm's low) and the third to fourth, fourht to fifth with no problem.

So would love to hear peeps thoughts...I hoping to at least confirm that I need to go in and split the cases and take a look at the gears and/or the shift forks...I'm thinking this most be the problem considering my symptoms...let me know what you guys think...thanks...ron.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #61 on:** September 15, 2009, 05:49:53 AM »

Yup, that sounds list a shift fork problem to me, or less likely damaged gears. There's a series of pics in the manuals which show the movements of the gears as you shift, that should tell you which gear and/or shift fork is the likely culprit.

mystic_1

MCRider · « **Reply #62 on:** September 15, 2009, 05:56:39 AM »

Quote from: mystic_1 on September 15, 2009, 05:49:53 AM

Yup, that sounds list a shift fork problem to me, or less likely damaged gears. There's a series of pics in the manuals which show the movements of the gears as you shift, that should tell you which gear and/or shift fork is the likely culprit.

mystic_1

Hate to say it, you're probably right. Never heard of such symptoms though where it won't actually find 2nd. Usually you find second, apply some throttle and it hops out. Nevertheless, that's all it could be.

ron.cieri.313 · « **Reply #63 on:** September 16, 2009, 07:09:51 AM »

Thanks guys..guess its time for me to stop playing around the edges and go in and attack this thing...I'm kinda bummed cuz i think I caused this problem but too stubborn to give up now and besides, everything else is working quite well.

I'm going to re-read posts on splitting the cases and the service manual again...one intial thing that confused me was that it looks like a need to remove the camshaft and cylinder head from the rest of the engine to split the cases...have you guys done this before or can confirm?...thx.

MCRider · « **Reply #64 on:** September 16, 2009, 07:24:46 AM »

Quote from: ron.cieri.313 on September 16, 2009, 07:09:51 AM

Thanks guys..guess its time for me to stop playing around the edges and go in and attack this thing...I'm kinda bummed cuz i think I caused this problem but too stubborn to give up now and besides, everything else is working quite well.

I'm going to re-read posts on splitting the cases and the service manual again...one intial thing that confused me was that it looks like a need to remove the camshaft and cylinder head from the rest of the engine to split the cases...have you guys done this before or can confirm?...thx.

No you do not need to remove any part of the top end to service the transmission. I replaced second gear and the 2nd gear shift fork years ago (Self imposed abuse, I like to power shift) so I know first hand. All side covers must come off, upside down on the bench you can get the lower case off and get to the gears.

ron.cieri.313 · « **Reply #65 on:** September 16, 2009, 07:51:49 AM »

MC...can I nominate you as my mentor through this process?!...I'm going to need it

MCRider · « **Reply #66 on:** September 16, 2009, 07:55:03 AM »

Quote from: ron.cieri.313 on September 16, 2009, 07:51:49 AM

MC...can I nominate you as my mentor through this process?!...I'm going to need it

Uh... sure. PM me if you like. But others will have more and different things to say if you keep it in a thread. Good luck, its really not too hard once you're committed to it. If that's truly the problem it will be a satisfying fix.

ron.cieri.313 · « **Reply #67 on:** September 16, 2009, 08:01:18 AM »

Yeah...I'm "committed" alright...I think I'll start a new post or project log...probably a post cuz people seem to read those more and I'll have lots of questions along the way...I need to clean my garage as a first step so I have lots of room for parts. I would like to begin in a week or two...I'm excited and worried about it this fix at the same time...thanks for the help...ron.

MCRider · « **Reply #68 on:** September 16, 2009, 08:12:27 AM »

Quote from: ron.cieri.313 on September 16, 2009, 08:01:18 AM

Yeah...I'm "committed" alright...I think I'll start a new post or project log...probably a post cuz people seem to read those more and I'll have lots of questions along the way...I need to clean my garage as a first step so I have lots of room for parts. I would like to begin in a week or two...I'm excited and worried about it this fix at the same time...thanks for the help...ron.

Some people can do things like this in the middle of a mess. I have to have some clean space and at least a modest system. A few sandwich bags to keep the screws and misc from each sidecover separate, things like that.

You'll be fine.

ron.cieri.313 · « **Reply #69 on:** September 16, 2009, 12:53:37 PM »

MC...so I don't have to remove the cylinder head, cylinder and cam shaft tensioner per the service manual?...I haven't found a really good process in any post yet.

MCRider · « **Reply #70 on:** September 16, 2009, 01:06:27 PM »

Quote from: ron.cieri.313 on September 16, 2009, 12:53:37 PM

MC...so I don't have to remove the cylinder head, cylinder and cam shaft tensioner per the service manual?...I haven't found a really good process in any post yet.

I was thinking when i wrote that "no" that the Clymer manual probably says you do. I have a Clymer manual copyright 1972 that says you have to remove the starter motor to remove the cylinder head. This is corrected in my 1977 manual.

I will affirmatively say "no" you do not have to remove the any part of the top end to service the transmission.

You would remove the engine. While on the floor, remove all the case bolts that would hold the lower half to the upper half. Mostly 6mm bolts (with 10mm heads) including a pair in the countershaft sprocket area.

Flip it over on the work bench so you are looking at the oil pan. It will be resting on the cam cover and the rear upper motor mount. Remove all the engine side covers. Under the shifter cover, there is a transmission bearing carrier mount which straddles the seam of the 2 cases. It will be obvious. All the shift linkage and this carrier must come off.

Remove the remaining bolts that hold the lower case to the upper case. You must remove the Main Bolts as well, I think i've been told to leave them for last and replace them first.

Might as well take the oil pan off and inspect the oil pump screen.

Then you can crack the cases, with a mallet rap it and you should hear the tone change when its ready to come off. Have a place ready for it. Lift it off. Part of the tranny comes with it, shift drum and forks, maybe more. The heavy stuff, main shaft, stays with the upper case IIRC. Set it aside.

Then go to town.

Anyone else, please chime in. Its been a while for me.

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Author Topic: Clutch Adjustment Sadness...cannot get it to disengage (Read 17145 times)