Topic: Cash for clunkers. Why kill the motor? WTF America?!?!

[Inigo Montoya]

Ofreen, they already are. Have you forgotten about medicare and medicade? I think it is funny when people gripe about govt run health insurance when we already have it!

[ofreen]

Ofreen, they already are. Have you forgotten about medicare and medicade? I think it is funny when people gripe about govt run health insurance when we already have it!

Believe me, I haven't forgotten it.  There are plenty of horror stories about the old and the sick having to deal with those bureaucracies, not to mention what those on the professional side have to go through.  Also, until they passed away last year, I had to watch as my Dad and my Uncle dealt with the Veteran's Administration.  I did plenty of jousting with the VA on their behalf, trying to get medication and treatment for them.  It is like beating your head against a brick wall.  All the VA cares about is numbers.  It didn't matter that those men had bled for their country.  I highly doubt that any "universal" health care system administered by the government will be any different than the VA.  No matter what party is in the White House or controls Congress.

ETA:  After posting the above, I need to clarify something about the VA.  I met some excellent, dedicated individuals at the VA, individuals providing care to their patients.  The professionalism of most of those people is above reproach.  It is the bureaucracy that lets those people and their patients down.  

[Rampage1967]

Here's another crying shame. how stupid can a guy be??

A CORVETTE!!

[Frankencake]

I just can't be a part of the slaughter.....

[razor02097]

how about we send the PO of that vette to the crusher and let it pick a new owner that would appreciate it?

[kslrr]

Watching those videos made me wonder what typte of toxic crap is in the smoke while the engine is being siezed.

[ColinMc]

I'm a vette fan and all...but that generation...one less on the road doesn't bother me one bit.

[DammitDan]

Gotta remember, a mint condition '98 Corvette is still 11 years old (i.e. he probably made a profit on it)...  And I'm with Colin, that body style of Vette does just as much for me as the late '80s 5.0 Mustangs.  And that's not very much.

[Industrial Cafe]

Watching those videos made me wonder what typte of toxic crap is in the smoke while the engine is being siezed.

+1

[HavocTurbo]

Gotta remember, a mint condition '98 Corvette is still 11 years old (i.e. he probably made a profit on it)...  And I'm with Colin, that body style of Vette does just as much for me as the late '80s 5.0 Mustangs.  And that's not very much.

God forbid you part it out.... you know like put that engine in a..... chevette?

Even if it's an ugly duckling should you be able to buy the parts from the motor? Economic boost my ass.

[Laminar]

Ha, far from it, at least not modern Chevs.  But to deliberately ruin a functional engine of any make for a political purpose that will have zero impact on the environment is a travesty.

You know this for sure? You've done the calculations and analyzed the data and you've come to the conclusion that the net environmental impact of this program is either zero or negative?

[Laminar]

Watching those videos made me wonder what typte of toxic crap is in the smoke while the engine is being siezed.

The mixture they pour into the crankcase is sand and water, the only "toxic crap" is whatever emissions the car has been putting out for the past 10+ years anyway.

[mystic_1]

The smoke is mostly burning oil I'd guess.

mystic_1

[kslrr]

The smoke could contain vaporised aluminum, Babbitt material, burning rubber and gasket material, etc.  The only reason it's being done is because the Save-the-Earth zealots HATE VEHICELS THAT USE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES and want us to see that.

[Frankencake]

As the man said, the mixture is sodium silicate and water.  It's like muffler or fireplace cement.  Most of the "smoke" is steam with a bit of crap from the engine.  I would take a long tug of it but it's probably less destructive than a v8 in the long run.

[razor02097]

Its completely pointless to seize a small block Chevy... its like burning an ant.  Where there is 1 there are 1000.  Don't feel bad about that vette motor.  I'm just saying I don't have a vette and it would be nice to have, I would take care of it not send it to its demise.

I'm just wondering why they don't drain the oil, pour bleach start engine run for 10 seconds then let sit overnight.  In the morning it would be rusted solid.  I agree that running the engine till it seizes puts a lot of crap out the tail pipe.


Something I thought about last night... if someone where to steal a vehicle traded in for CARS... would it be considered theft of government property?

[Laminar]

I'm just wondering why they don't drain the oil, pour bleach start engine run for 10 seconds then let sit overnight.

Option 1: Ruin the engine in 30 seconds to 4 minutes of time.

Option 2: Perform the exact same amount of prep work, save less than four minutes of run time, wait overnight, then get back in the vehicle to confirm that it was ruined.

I agree that running the engine till it seizes puts a lot of crap out the tail pipe.

What kind of crap? And how does it compare to what the engine was putting out before it was traded in, and what it would  have been putting out for the next 20-40 years had it not been traded in?

[mystic_1]

If it were to continue running for 20 to 40 years, that would mean by definition that the motor isn't seizing.  Internal conditions in the motor as it's seizing are unlikely to be duplicated at any other time, hence any emissions from those processes would be unique to the state of engine seizure and different from the "normal" emissions.

<stirs pot and runs away>

mystic_1

[razor02097]

I'm just wondering why they don't drain the oil, pour bleach start engine run for 10 seconds then let sit overnight.

Option 1: Ruin the engine in 30 seconds to 4 minutes of time.

Option 2: Perform the exact same amount of prep work, save less than four minutes of run time, wait overnight, then get back in the vehicle to confirm that it was ruined.

I agree that running the engine till it seizes puts a lot of crap out the tail pipe.

What kind of crap? And how does it compare to what the engine was putting out before it was traded in, and what it would  have been putting out for the next 20-40 years had it not been traded in?

FFS you do like to argue don't you?

they burn gas for that 30 seconds to 4 minutes don't they?  If its to save the planet why don't they seize the engine without running it at high RPM till it dies?  Why not hydro-lock it?  Or pour sand and water down the intake manifold?  There are more Eco friendly ways to kill an engine.

For more pollution fun... an overheating engine (which is what they are doing)  the rest of the motor is burning up plastic and rubber under the hood boiling away coolant and what not.

I really couldn't care less, but if you want to argue that an engine puts out the same emissions with sand and water as lubricant you are insane.

[Laminar]

If it were to continue running for 20 to 40 years, that would mean by definition that the motor isn't seizing.  Internal conditions in the motor as it's seizing are unlikely to be duplicated at any other time, hence any emissions from those processes would be unique to the state of engine seizure and different from the "normal" emissions.

Agreed. Now which scenario creates more pollution:
1. The engine running for 30 seconds to four minutes emitting whatever it does, then seizing
2. The engine running for 20-40 years and emitting whatever it does

I'm not trying to defend this program, I'm just asking people to stop and think before saying something based on your political views instead of something based on reality.

[razor02097]

If it were to continue running for 20 to 40 years, that would mean by definition that the motor isn't seizing.  Internal conditions in the motor as it's seizing are unlikely to be duplicated at any other time, hence any emissions from those processes would be unique to the state of engine seizure and different from the "normal" emissions.

Agreed. Now which scenario creates more pollution:
1. The engine running for 30 seconds to four minutes emitting whatever it does, then seizing
2. The engine running for 20-40 years and emitting whatever it does

I'm not trying to defend this program, I'm just asking people to stop and think before saying something based on your political views instead of something based on reality.

for 1 thing the car traded in would be unlikely to last 20-40 years but even if it did you still have to take into account the car they buy.   Even new cars pollute.
You make it sound as if they get rid of the car and get a zero emmision type vehicle.

[Laminar]

they burn gas for that 30 seconds to 4 minutes don't they?

Yes, in lieu of burning it for 20 to 40 years.

If its to save the planet why don't they seize the engine without running it at high RPM till it dies?  Why not hydro-lock it?  Or pour sand and water down the intake manifold?  There are more Eco friendly ways to kill an engine.

I'd be willing to bet that the seizing method was created by people smarter than you and I, taking not only environmental concerns into consideration, but also time efficiency, cost efficiency, etc.

I'm sure filling a crankcase with chlorine then burning it is a fantastically eco-friendly option.

[Laminar]

for 1 thing the car traded in would be unlikely to last 20-40 years

Based on what data?

but even if it did you still have to take into account the car they buy.   Even new cars pollute.
You make it sound as if they get rid of the car and get a zero emmision type vehicle.

Nope. But since you seem so sure that this program has a negative environment impact, please share with us the data you used to come to that conclusion. You did base that conclusion on actual numerical data, right? You're not just saying what you THINK is true, are you?

[razor02097]

they burn gas for that 30 seconds to 4 minutes don't they?

Yes, in lieu of burning it for 20 to 40 years.

If its to save the planet why don't they seize the engine without running it at high RPM till it dies?  Why not hydro-lock it?  Or pour sand and water down the intake manifold?  There are more Eco friendly ways to kill an engine.

I'd be willing to bet that the seizing method was created by people smarter than you and I, taking not only environmental concerns into consideration, but also time efficiency, cost efficiency, etc.

I'm sure filling a crankcase with chlorine then burning it is a fantastically eco-friendly option.

For #1 see below

Just how is sand and water creative?  The seizing method is a crude hillbilly method.  Drain oil, fill with sand and water, start engine foot to floor. 
I said fill with bleach and run for 10 seconds it would distribute the bleach not heat it up and burn.  Any gasses created would not be as much as running it for several minutes.  I'm not saying that's the best just that there are alternatives.

for 1 thing the car traded in would be unlikely to last 20-40 years

Based on what data?

but even if it did you still have to take into account the car they buy.   Even new cars pollute.
You make it sound as if they get rid of the car and get a zero emission type vehicle.

Nope. But since you seem so sure that this program has a negative environment impact, please share with us the data you used to come to that conclusion. You did base that conclusion on actual numerical data, right? You're not just saying what you THINK is true, are you?

Lets see average mileage for Americans is what 10-12k miles in a year? In 20 years the miles would be 200-240k miles on a car.  Some cars will last that long many will not.  But you said they last 20-40 MORE so add the mileage of the car already.  Of course double the figures for the 40 years.

I never said that it has a negative impact did I?  All I said is that there are alternative ways to seizing an engine without running it at high RPMs till it dies.



Don't get me wrong I am NOT an environmentalist.  I take care of my land and do plant trees, grass, etc.  I recycle metals and take used oil to be recycled.  I have done those things before it became popular with being "green".  I own a Jeep and a V8 camaro. I drag race the camaro and off road with the jeep.  I'm more worried about MPG then emissions.  Some things can be taken too far.

If we HAVE kill the cars lets do it in a humane fashion... Quick and efficient, not go till she blows.

[mystic_1]

Quantity of pollution is only on factor, quality must also be considered.  What's worse, years of exposure to cigarette smoke, or short periods exposed to sarin gas?   I exaggerate for the sake of effect.


Now, if the motor were seized while the car was sitting on a frictionless conveyor belt........


mystic_1