Topic: Cash for clunkers. Why kill the motor? WTF America?!?!

[Laminar]

Just how is sand and water creative?

Who said anything about being creative?

I said fill with bleach and run for 10 seconds it would distribute the bleach not heat it up and burn.

Would 10 seconds be the universal standard for all engines? How would the dealership know when the bleach has been distributed effectively? As was mentioned earlier in this thread, different engines distribute oil throughout the engine at different rates. Plus, you now have to deal with an engine full of bleach - that's an environmental hazard.

[razor02097]

Plus, you now have to deal with an engine full of bleach - that's an environmental hazard.

touche' salesman

Still though the bleach was only 1 thing I named.  I didn't say it was the best.

[ofreen]

Ha, far from it, at least not modern Chevs.  But to deliberately ruin a functional engine of any make for a political purpose that will have zero impact on the environment is a travesty.

You know this for sure? You've done the calculations and analyzed the data and you've come to the conclusion that the net environmental impact of this program is either zero or negative?

I don't need to do any calculations, since even the "scientists" who espouse the man-caused global warming line say the effect of the program will be nil.  You want names?  Google is your friend.

[razor02097]

I don't know if anybody knows the actual reason of CARS program... whether its political?  EPA save the planet? reduce dependence on foreign oil?  I've lost track.  The people that REALLY need the CARS program to get rid of their hoopty STILL can't afford a new car or don't have the credit to get one.

Dealers are pulling out since they arn't getting paid... the program ran out of funds and needed more tax dollars... The program pretty much failed.  The government can't do anything right.

[ofreen]

I don't know if anybody knows the actual reason of CARS program...

There are plenty of aspects to this scam.  One I don't see talked about is the timing of it.  Next years' models are due to arrive at the dealerships.  Typically, previous years' models are deeply discounted to get rid of them to make room for the new cars.  This discount can approach or exceed $4500, depending on the model.  This is common knowledge, but seems to have been forgotten in all the hoopla.  The effect of this has been to put the dealer in the catbird seat when it comes to pricing.  The buyer has no leverage to bargain because if he doesn't go for it, the dealer is aware some other sucker will be along.  People are paying more for cars than they otherwise would have.  More than a few that got in on the program are waking up to idea they have been hoodwinked.

[edbikerii]

I'd be willing to bet that the seizing method was created by people smarter than you and I, ...

Yeah, right.  Probably a government expert.

[TwoTired]

I don't know if anybody knows the actual reason of CARS program...

I speculate it is an extension of government waste onto a willing populace that has grown to accept that practice.  If the government can waste, so can we!!  ...and be paid for it!  (on cursory inspection of the deal, of course.  Who reads the fine print, anyway?)

What democratic populace doesn't want a government handout?  (Whether real, imagined, or sold as such.)
 I further speculate it was manipulative toward a largely stupid populace.  After hearing the complaints about a huge bank bailout, a car industry bailout, (all big business) instead of actually helping the overtaxed common man populace, those whizzes in Washington fashioned a program that helped big business further under the guise of helping the common taxpayer.  And at the same time, forwarding the false "planet saving" agenda, which was also constructed to fleece the populace further.

When you have the populace under your thumb, you can't lose.

I find it interesting to note that the program only covered the most recent additions to the fleet of pollution controlled vehicles.  Not models early in the government mandated "smog" crackdown, which ostensibly have a higher contribution toward pollution.  And further, not models that were made before pollution controls were mandated to be implemented.  And yet, the stated primary reason for the program is to reduce pollution.  
 Just how many sides are there to a politician or media spokesman's mouth?  And which one has your ear?

[Duke McDukiedook]

I don't know if anybody knows the actual reason of CARS program...

There are plenty of aspects to this scam.  One I don't see talked about is the timing of it.  Next years' models are due to arrive at the dealerships.  Typically, previous years' models are deeply discounted to get rid of them to make room for the new cars.  This discount can approach or exceed $4500, depending on the model.  This is common knowledge, but seems to have been forgotten in all the hoopla.  The effect of this has been to put the dealer in the catbird seat when it comes to pricing.  The buyer has no leverage to bargain because if he doesn't go for it, the dealer is aware some other sucker will be along.  People are paying more for cars than they otherwise would have.  More than a few that got in on the program are waking up to idea they have been hoodwinked.

Now you are catching on.
The reason why GM and Chrysler dumped all the dealers they did recently is to limit the amount of dealerships and drive up the prices of the autos- so you are not able to shop around to another dealer without driving into the next county.

This is all planned out to drive up the cost of autos and send more jobs overseas- we are truly getting screwed here.

[razor02097]

I don't know if anybody knows the actual reason of CARS program...

There are plenty of aspects to this scam.  One I don't see talked about is the timing of it.  Next years' models are due to arrive at the dealerships.  Typically, previous years' models are deeply discounted to get rid of them to make room for the new cars.  This discount can approach or exceed $4500, depending on the model.  This is common knowledge, but seems to have been forgotten in all the hoopla.  The effect of this has been to put the dealer in the catbird seat when it comes to pricing.  The buyer has no leverage to bargain because if he doesn't go for it, the dealer is aware some other sucker will be along.  People are paying more for cars than they otherwise would have.  More than a few that got in on the program are waking up to idea they have been hoodwinked.

Now you are catching on.
The reason why GM and Chrysler dumped all the dealers they did recently is to limit the amount of dealerships and drive up the prices of the autos- so you are not able to shop around to another dealer without driving into the next county.

This is all planned out to drive up the cost of autos and send more jobs overseas- we are truly getting screwed here.

I'm just glad that the place I go to for my Jeep's repair/parts is still in business.. They got dumped by Chrysler and where screwed really really bad.  They had to dump inventory or risk paying for all the new cars on the lot.  The owner dumped inventory but continued to remain in business.  They are an honest shop second to none around here.  Which is rare to find.

[Laminar]

I find it interesting to note that the program only covered the most recent additions to the fleet of pollution controlled vehicles.  Not models early in the government mandated "smog" crackdown, which ostensibly have a higher contribution toward pollution.  And further, not models that were made before pollution controls were mandated to be implemented.  And yet, the stated primary reason for the program is to reduce pollution.  

I heard rumors that classic car lobbyists were responsible for that. Honestly - compare the pollution and consumption of the handful of classic cars out there to the pollution and consumption of vehicles like the V6 S10s getting 13-14mpg, and you'll see that excluding classic vehicles did very little overall.

[TwoTired]

I heard rumors that classic car lobbyists were responsible for that.

What?  They listened to a fringe minority group with no monetary clout?  Imagine that.

[Inigo Montoya]

actually the s10 got more than 14 mpg. I had 3 of them and all got at least 17 in town and 20 highway.

[DammitDan]

Granted, while I don't support handouts to big business, the auto industry is still a major part of our economy.  How many millions of jobs are directly and indirectly involved in the auto industry, after all?

So where did the money for the CARS program come from?  The economic stimulus package.

The environmental factor, while miniscule, is still a step in the right direction to both stop the spread of low-mpg vehicle pollution AND reduce our dependence on foreign oil.  But in the end, this was still designed as an economic stimulus to help get the auto industry back on its feet and help change the American citizens' mindset away from their insatiable "need" to buy an unnecessarily large vehicle.

Imagine that, a government program which kills 4 birds with one stone.  Now that's what I'd call a failure!

[Laminar]

actually the s10 got more than 14 mpg. I had 3 of them and all got at least 17 in town and 20 highway.

My fiancée's brother claimed he couldn't get more than 15mpg with his. But then again he's a tool.

[ColinMc]

My 02 S10 with the 6cyl gets around 25mpg on the highway. WITH a 76 Honda CB750K in the back lol.

[gregimotis]

Imagine that, a government program which kills 4 birds with one stone.  Now that's what I'd call a failure!

Beautiful

[Bob Wessner]

Hardly a scientific/statistical analysis, but they were interviewing a local, fairly large dealer here today and his take was that a large number of those taking advantage of the program were not previously NEW car buyers. Perhaps they saw the program as an opportunity to have a new car for a change.

[Inkscars]

I've already said before the mixture that the government gave us "coupons" for is called "LIQUID GLASS" its for waxing cars or some #$%*.
Drain the oil, start the vehicle and let it run until its operating temperature, turn it off, add 2 pints of Liquid glass to crank case and restart. Run vehicle at 2000 rpms until engine detonates or seizes. You are to attempt to start the vehicle after it stalls on its own.

Also, I forgot, I'm not reading back but, did any of you read the article about how China is purchasing steel at crazy highs?
Supposedly we're selling the scrap cubes to them.
According to them, they are, "limiting pollution", making money, stimulating the economy in the way of use of credit, and selling new cars outright, new jobs selling cars, and working at junk yards which means people are paying more taxes, and then they're also making money on the steel.
We went out back and looked and there isn't but 2 cars back there that are comprised of any plastic or fiberglass. There has to be close to 100 cars back there.

[razor02097]

So where did the money for the CARS program come from?  The economic stimulus package.

nope... the first $1 billion was allocated from the War Appropriations Bill not the $787 billion stimulus.  The stimulus only allowed people to deduct the sales tax of a new car from taxable income.

Of course $1 billion dollars wasn't enough so they pumped $2 billion more into it.  That is the solution to everything isn't it?... if it runs out of funding... pass another bill to keep funding it.  If beating the dead horse isn't working get a bigger bat.

[Gordon]

Of course $1 billion dollars wasn't enough so they pumped $2 billion more into it.  That is the solution to everything isn't it?... if it runs out of funding... pass another bill to keep funding it.  If beating the dead horse isn't working get a bigger bat.

The C.A.R.S. program was never meant to be a self-funding program.  It was meant as an economic stimulus.  It ran out of its original funding so quickly because it was working so well that they decided to put more money into it to keep it going for a little longer. 

[noahspop]

pardon my ignorance, and lazyness if this has been covered already.
I heard that you will have to claim the $3,500, or $4,500 on your next years taxes as income.
anyone heard of that?
I was told it was in the fine print. (by a friend)

[Joel]

pardon my ignorance, and lazyness if this has been covered already.
I heard that you will have to claim the $3,500, or $4,500 on your next years taxes as income.
anyone heard of that?
I was told it was in the fine print. (by a friend)

Not true according to H2 of this document: http://www.cars.gov/files/official-information/law.pdf

[razor02097]

pardon my ignorance, and lazyness if this has been covered already.
I heard that you will have to claim the $3,500, or $4,500 on your next years taxes as income.
anyone heard of that?
I was told it was in the fine print. (by a friend)

Not true according to H2 of this document: http://www.cars.gov/files/official-information/law.pdf

Just in case someone can't view the pdf this is what H (2) says...

(2)
FOR PURPOSES OF TAXATION- A voucher issued under the program or any payment made for such a voucher pursuant to subsection (a)(3) shall not be considered as gross income of the purchaser of a vehicle for purposes of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986.

[noahspop]

thanks for clearing that up.

[Inkscars]

Well fellas,
we detonated our first engine today.
Drained the oil
added the liquid glass, floored in reverse, it made it about 30 seconds. 
completely uneventful. no explosion. no thrown rods. just stalled and wouldn't restart.
We're supposed to go back in an hour and make sure it doesn't start and repeat if necessary.
Seriously, the little bronco didn't make it 150 feet. hahaa.
Then you have to tag it and the dealership manager has to sign it.
We're going for the sport cars next.
Where's that devil smiley?