Topic: i know this is a pretty morbid question but......................

[bucky katt]

my wife and i were talking this evening about how close i came to being either a quadrapeligic (sp) or possibly killed when i got thrown from a horse 2 years ago. all that happened was fractured vertabra but i also know how damn lucky i am to be able to walk and use my hands for the most part. she asked me what if i'd been permanently paralyzed and i told her i wouldnt have wanted to live if that had happened, no heroic measures taken and all that. made me realize that even at my age a living will is a good idea, to make sure my wishes were carried out. i dont know if i sound foolish or selfish or what, saying i'd rather die than llive as  a quad, but thats really how i feel. i know how rough it is dealing with just the chronic pain and a small amount of lost sense of touch and mobility in my right arm/hand. how would you gents (and ladies) feel in that situation, would you want to live on totally paralyzed? smack if ya'll want for asking such a dark question, or tell me so and i'll get the topic removed.

[rhos1355]

Nah, quick quiet death for me. Done by my better half. We have discussed this at length and have agreed that, god forbid, should anything happen to either of us, the other one will take responsibility and do the ultimate deed.
That was one of the reasons I married her after 20 years of living together. I shall explain; the only other kin I have is my estranged sister. Nasty piece of work. And sure would not have her decide on what should happen to me in a life or death decision.

[demon78]

We to have discussed "IT" and have both said no heroic measures and that's cool, but make sure your kids know, as well as your doctor and that he-she is ok with that, at my age I've seen too many people stuck on respirators and other paraphernalia even though I know that's not what they wanted and even though there was manifold reasons for them to be on life support, that is not what they wanted
Bill the demon.

[bucky katt]

thank god my mom had a living will made up when she was first diagnosed with lupus in 1994. she had a BAD stroke followed by almost a dozen mini strokes. she wanted no feeding tube, no heroic measures at all. she was in the same hospice facility that terry schiavo was in. i wasnt in florida when mom got sick, just one of my #$%* half brothers and they were all for a feeding tube and artificial respiration, when i threatened with a call to the florida state attorneys office the backed down.

[Gordon]

I definitely wouldn't want to be kept alive as a vegetable, but as long as I still have my mind (even if I'm paralyzed from the neck down) I want to keep on living so I can see my children grow up, and hopefully meet my grandchildren.   

[coldright]

I work in a trauma ICU and have seen the following situation play out many times.  When one is initially injured the emergency response system kicks in, EMTs arrive, you are shuttled to the ED, sent to surgery if you are stable enough, and then brought to the ICU.  Now all of this happens because the level of injury and permanent damage isn't known until the treatments have been done.  You save the life and ask questions later.  Your loved ones do everything possible to save your life and hope for the best.  Days or weeks later, you wake up on the ventilator.  If the injury is low enough, sometimes a person doesn't have to be ventilated and has complete upper body movement (para vs quad).

Here's the kicker... I have seen hard working, hard living men - the very kind who said absolutely no way do I want to be kept alive (before the accident) go for the full court press once they are awake.  They are pissed off and depressed, sometimes with no movement below the shoulders and ventilator dependent, yet the WILL TO LIVE is so strong that inevitably, virtually everyone who survives decides to do everything possible to live.  This year we have sent two such guys to the Craig Institute in Colorado for rehab.  The last guy had a high C2 injury who asked to be taken off support when he first woke up.  Days later as the process went on, he decided to continue.

The problem is there is no time out process after the injury to ask the "do we keep this person alive question."  You have to do everything possible initially and then only after someone wakes up does the process of evaluating the future begin.  It's horrible dilemma either way, because you want the person to live, but then they live with the consequences once they are awake.  

Even then, Superman died from bedsores.  

And yes, Gordon, good point... whether or not the mind is intact has everything to do with how decisions are made.

[Frankenkit]

+1 Coldright.  I think the will to live at that moment will surpass any decision we might make right now.  It's that will that makes people try to back out of suicides at the last moment, or what-have-you.  Once people are at the edge and know they may very well die, they start to seriously reconsider their previous decisionmaking.  If I still have my mind, I would probably want to live.  If not, though, we've discussed the topic... I just wouldn't want to go on, either, as just one of the braindead (or seriously, seriously limited) veggies dependant on life support.  I had a family member who lived pretty much like that for her last three years and it broke my heart in ways I still can't revisit.  I can't let that be me, and could never do that to anyone I loved willingly.  I just worry about the selfishness of blood family, and if they would keep me alive just for their own emotional benefit.

[coldright]

My family affectionately refers to the pillow cure, we're all on the same page.  That being said... I don't know what I would do with a fully intact mind and a non-functional body. 

[SanDogDewey]

My sister was paralyzed in a car accident in 1986. She's went on to finish medical school and became a neurologist. She later went back to school for her law degree. I think she's an amazing women who continued to fullfill her dream after what could have been a life ending tragedy. Although she's not riding motorcycles, but she had wonderful life experiences and career goals. God had a different plan for her and we're awfully proud of her.

[coldright]

I had a kid the other day come in with a T5 fracture (para) from an ATV accident.  It's so hard to have to help someone face the future in a way they have never imagined.  I'm so inspired by folks like your sister, SanDog, who are faced with adversity and then go on to do amazing things.  It's the very thing that I have to delicately remind my patients of at times... that life goes on, perhaps not as you may have intended, but with all the potential of leading a happy and productive life. 

[bucky katt]

i think that what scares me is all of the things i know how to , and enjoy doing require at the least working hands and i cant imagine not being able to get on my honda to go for a cruise out to myrtle beach or swing a leg over a horse for a nice long trail ride (i got on one for the first time since my accident this morning) i also think about my mother in law who had alzheimers AND we had to deal with both a colostomy bag and a catheter. maybe once im in that situation my mind might change but right now, it scares me spitless to think of me being totally dependent on someone else for everything i need. see, i'm an independent cuss (as my family will tell you) and i hate being taken care of, i was up on my feet taking care of myself 8 days after my neck was broken, it's why i was only in the hospital 10 days instead of the 20+ they told me i would be in. even when i broke my leg several years ago i barely let my family get stuff for me, hell i even did most of the cooking still. i wonder if a tattoo on my chest would make a difference in what measures are taken............ ems and other medical people, what say you?

[coldright]

Nope, tattoo wouldn't do.  You need a form signed by the docs at the hospital you are taken to.  At our hospital, if it's trauma, you get shuttled into the system and it gets sorted out later, unless you are able to tell the docs in the ED that you want nothing done.  That being said, if they tell you a course of Solumedrol and surgery might make you functional, you'll prolly go for it.  The unknown outcome is what makes it so difficult. 

[demon78]

Then guys I think the system is broken and I know that was part of the discussion my Doc and I had about the system and as I explained about my situation we came to an understanding ( I'm 70 for gods sake and after waking up around 50 and finding some one had stolen my last match, I'll never be able to start the world on fire) in that yes I might wind up in the system, but no, not likely I'll change my mind as far as my kids go they don't want a nasty old ghost hanging about so let it go.
Bill the demon.

[tramp]

i'm going to put another twist on this
would you want to be a burden to any loved one?
i would rather see my wife say goodbye to me and go on to another life than waste hers looking over me, because her life would be over looking after me
and she would do it because she loves me
but i wouldn't want her to do it
i would rather see her start a new life

[bucky katt]

i'm going to put another twist on this
would you want to be a burden to any loved one?
i would rather see my wife say goodbye to me and go on to another life than waste hers looking over me, because her life would be over looking after me
and she would do it because she loves me
but i wouldn't want her to do it
i would rather see her start a new life

that was another of my concerns. when we got married my wife was caring for her mother who was in the advanced stages of alzheimers (we also had a nurse in daily) and i was just horrified at the thought that one day my family might have to do the same for me, not complaining at all about taking care of my mother-in-law (id do it again in a heartbeat) but i cant imagine my loved ones having to go through with me what we did with my  mother-in-law. i dont know if she was aware of what was happening to her or not i hope not though.

[demon78]

Yeah Bucky my mother came down with Parkinsons and went from a strong vibrant woman to what looked like a Buchenwald survivor that couldn't communicate ( I hope to Christ her mind had gone, rather than being trapped in a non functioning body and know you can't say or do any thing, the descent into madness would be extremely painful. So not for me, my old doc, who has retired explained if you were serious, a razor blade across the carotid and 30-45 secounds later you're gone.
Bill the demon.

[Gordon]

i'm going to put another twist on this
would you want to be a burden to any loved one?
i would rather see my wife say goodbye to me and go on to another life than waste hers looking over me, because her life would be over looking after me
and she would do it because she loves me
but i wouldn't want her to do it
i would rather see her start a new life

Again that all depends on the state of one's mind.  If my disability or lack of ability to take care of myself were strictly physical and my mind was still intact, then I would absolutely expect my wife to take care of me, and I would do the same for her.  I wouldn't fault her if she needed to get help, though.

[flybox1]

discussed IT with the wife just a few days ago.
my near-death experience in mexico a few months back continues to bring up the subject of mortality/disability.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50412.0
 
made sure my short/long term disability, life ins, and our long term care ins policies were still enough.
i want her, and my kids to love me because i'm still alive, and not hate that i'm a burden.
its not her job to (medically) care for me.  BUT, it is my responsability alone to make sure the $ is there to pay someone else to do it.

i'd rather see my boys grow up than be gone and miss it. no matter what my disability is.
and i'f i'm gone, i/they need to know they'll be (financially) OK.

[mlinder]

I very easily could have been paralysed in my last accident. 6 broken vertebrae. Told my family if I ever am, to find a way to kill me.

[Frankenkit]

that statement is made incredibly surreal by your bobbing, smiling flower avatar.  You know that, right?

[SOHC4ever]

Kill me if I can't write.

[Frankenkit]

Now we're wandering into the territory of what constitutes murder in your state, what the laws are in OR as a "right to die" state, and how your family would feel about killing you if you ask them to, even if they have some hope of keeping you around for their sake instead of yours. DNR/DNI is one thing.  Hack'nslashing your carotid is quite another.

We're talking the difference of living like Superman or Stephen Hawking and reacting to that as if we're facing terminal illness with a terrible end. I think, quite frankly, there are far too many variables to have any cut-and-dried solution to... it's a terrible scenario that needs to be addressed as it unfolds.

[mlinder]

Well, if I'm paralysed, I can't kill myself very easily. You know, can't move and such. Jump off a roof? Slit my wrists? Open up a bottle of pills and OD? Shoot myself up with a couple grams of heroin? Can't do it.
I'd count on family to do it for me.
I'm not Stephen Hawking, who can make incredible contributions to society and mankind in a wheelchair and a robotic voice.
I'm just some average @$$h0l3

[lynchj]

My wife and I have discussed this topic (after leaving a nursing home, visiting my aunt who had no idea we were there) and we decided to "drink the Kool-aid" before it came to being in a home. It's easy to say this while we are healthy and things are going pretty good. I would definitely take care of my wife if she needed full time care and I'm sure she would do the same for me. So... I guess I'll have to figure this out some more.

I don't want to die, just want to ride my motorcy.......cle

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Bucky,you made us think,good post, morbid? more like reality,Heading to MBSC in the morning(grew up there)Ok lived there,anyway will think of you and look out for (THEM) 4 wheels and more.Remember sneaking in my SL175 onto Myrtle Beach Speedway(Rambi Raceway then)it kept wanting to seize on the banking)Time to go for a ride.Bill