Author Topic: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?  (Read 10436 times)

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Offline Caminokid

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2009, 08:17:55 AM »
My thought on running a distributor...When building cars...the less items ran on a belt or even a chain...= more horsepower. I think with the 10% gain you get out of running a distributor...you lose by running it. This is why most muscle cars that are not stock can be ran with electric water pumps...electric fans and so on. If you run extra stuff...you lose horsepower doing so.

If you could run a electronic ignition like say on a 2.4 GM motor...where there is a coil on each plug. And the coils dont weigh that much each and some sort of a pick up on the stator or somewhere then I can see this working out good. 
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Offline NitroHunter

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2009, 08:19:52 AM »
Here's one of the RC 90 degree drive units with a Mallory Sprint mag.
Mallory told me it is a reverse rotation VW unit. This mag uses a large external coil.  
One big drawback is no timing advance, set it and lock it down.  :-\
Mallory makes an attachment box that retards the spark on starting, it does make things easier. I can use the electric starter, where as before it was kick or remote start only.
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Offline Caminokid

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2009, 08:20:02 AM »
Getting back to the coil per cylinder setup.  Even if you had 4 coils for maximum saturation and 4 individual triggers for each cylinder you would still have wasted spark.  Anyone thinking of doing anything clever for a cam sensor?

I guess if you ran either a cam or crank sensor with some sort of ignition box....that might work. I guess once again think of how the cars are set up now.
God created man...Winchester and a baseball bat made then equal. Evel Knievel

Offline 754

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2009, 08:27:13 AM »
I have seen 1 or 2 setups way back that ran off the end of the cam.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2009, 10:38:12 AM »
Well the issue lies with using the points cam mainly. You would need a trigger of course but you would need a 4 point trigger using an optical system, then 4 coils could be used with no wasted spark.

Offline Jim F

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2009, 12:35:09 PM »
ARD's are just an old Mag off of a tractor slapped onto a belt drive adapter.  Hey Big Jim, did your mag come laying down like that?  Mine stands upright and I think im going to have trouble with it clearing my VM29's.  I looked at the bolt patter in my belt drive plate and it wont accomodate a simply roation of the mag. 

Sorry for the stolen thread, I'll leave the needle.
Yeah the distributor tucks under the carbs
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Offline Turbogrimace

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2009, 05:45:50 PM »
Man that's nice.  I might drill mine to get it to fit like that.  Thanks for the info.

Offline PxTx

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2009, 07:10:48 PM »
Even with 4 triggers, you would still fire every revolution, thus it would still be wasted spark. 

You'll need a cam sensor to identifiy which stroke you are on, then some sort of solid state component to enable the coils to fire only on the power stroke.  I'm still unclear what the gain would be to eliminate a wasted spark system.

Well the issue lies with using the points cam mainly. You would need a trigger of course but you would need a 4 point trigger using an optical system, then 4 coils could be used with no wasted spark.

Offline bradweingartner

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2009, 07:48:11 PM »
In the back of my head I'm working on an EFI conversion for my CB. I have all the electronics just need to sort the mechanicals. I could do a coil-per-cylinder ignition without much issue with that system.

But as mentioned above, it would require some sort of cam reference (or a 50/50 chance algorithm and software to support it...) The magneto drives ran a 2:1 reduction drive and had to be timed with the cam because of this. I think an enterprising person could fit a sensor to read directly off the cam with a little effort. But there isn't a lot of room to play with on the SOHC head.

Personally I don't think it's worth the hassle. Wasted spark has some limitations in high RPM applications as well as real high horsepower applications. Otherwise it works well, and has worked well for a good long time.

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2009, 06:16:05 AM »
I am not sure why you think you would still have wasted spark with a 4 coil trigger. You set it up so you have one trigger on every revolution. 4 revolutions, 4 triggers, no wasted spark. no one said this would be easy to do though.
With a 750 I don't see the point of it anyways. We have enough power to run hotter coils and a dyna 2000 or cyclex optical with no issues. I can see something like this maybe for the littler guys, well not the 650 but 550 and smaller.
But with the amount of work still required, a revamp of the stator would probably be a better option.

Offline PxTx

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2009, 07:12:21 AM »
I am missing th concept here.  Are you saying 1 trigger for 4 coils, which would somehow (cam reference) know which sequence to trigger each coil?  Or are we talking about 4 seperate triggers for 4 seperate coils where each triger would only be activated once every 4 revolutions?

Ideally, there should be a crank trigger with say a 60-2 wheel and a cam reference so that we could have degree based timing and sequentially fire each of the 4 individual coils to eliminate the wasted spark.

In the end, I think we are in agreement.  There are simpler, higher voltage longer duration ignition systems readily avialable already despite being a wasted spark setup.  They work great and are still relativly simple.  Working on providing maximum voltage to these systems is probably a better choice than to try and invent a non wasted spark system.


I am not sure why you think you would still have wasted spark with a 4 coil trigger. You set it up so you have one trigger on every revolution. 4 revolutions, 4 triggers, no wasted spark.

Offline mlinder

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2009, 07:25:18 AM »
A half speed gear reduction setup on the crank to trigger, 4 pickups equidistant, and each to a separate coil would work fine.
Not that difficult, honestly, and could be made to fit under the stock points cover easily.
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2009, 10:10:27 AM »
I was thinking 4 separate triggers. So 1 on each coil. I think a cyclex system though would be simpler! ;)

Offline mlinder

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2009, 10:36:26 AM »
I was thinking 4 separate triggers. So 1 on each coil. I think a cyclex system though would be simpler! ;)

That's what I said. (4 trigger part, anyway.)
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Offline SoyBoySigh

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2015, 02:51:09 PM »
Any exploration of this subject should include a good look at the modern OPTICAL triggering systems. There's one available for SOHC and DOHC four Hondas at CYCLE-EXCHANGE - I hope to fit one to my 900 somewhere down the road. I agree, a cam sensor like the ignition on the CB72/CB77 Hawk/SuperHawk and the Laverda 750 twin which copied 'em, would be preferred. Could it be feasible to fit the optical sensor on the end of the cam? Perhaps a little miniaturized sensor run through a plug drilled in the valve cover? Would sure be interesting to see.

Either way, the advantage of the optical sensor is that the ignition triggering can be set to a much more specific point rather than a RANGE of advance/retard - which was the whole approach of the older systems was to cover a wider range to accommodate some hit & miss of the actual sensor. Which I suppose has something to do with the signal triggering from the magnetic & electrical method being inherently delayed and unable to keep up with the varying rates of acceleration.

The optical system triggers so fast in and of the process of triggering itself, that at ANY rpm the ignition point is still at the point where it was sensed WHEN the system gets around to making a spark.

At least, that's how THIS guy understands it.

Yeah it kinda sucks knowing that there are some modern electronics and #$%* underneath the engine covers. Detracts from the whole "TIME MACHINE" effect of a cool classic air-cooled bike, IMHO.

But if you can IGNORE that, erase it from your mind, to enjoy the experience for what it IS, removed from that broader knowledge and understanding of the technology - and yet STILL get your rocks off on the Old's Cool bike? And NOT get sucked into the evil that is modern crotch-rocket-science? Then your oyster world would better bait my man Gunga-Din, son.

-Sigh.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 02:55:37 PM by SoyBoySigh »

Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2015, 03:03:41 PM »
Getting back to the coil per cylinder setup.  Even if you had 4 coils for maximum saturation and 4 individual triggers for each cylinder you would still have wasted spark.  Anyone thinking of doing anything clever for a cam sensor?

Yeah, I've thought about this, if heat weren't such a problem you could use Coil on Plug Coils and trigger them with a hondaman ignition or similar. But still you'd waste a spark. If your engine is built to make power how much are you really going to gain from single fire anyway though? It seems like splitting hairs at that point.
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Offline fitzmotor

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2015, 03:12:36 PM »
Cant forget the Roto Faze setup, belt drive to a dist under the carbs, with dual points and a switch to advance after start-up. Joe the owner of Roto Faze said "I did not sell many of those"

Offline SoyBoySigh

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2015, 05:27:01 PM »
I get the idea of having a hotter spark, of which there are SEVERAL ways to achieve that for better burn.

But compared to methods which WERE achievable at that time via solid-state transistorized albeit relatively a somewhat complex unit - or more to the point KEEPING the wasted spark, better still RE-WORDING it so we don't get fixated on the word "wasted" - and just make a hotter spark across a broader gap:

Isn't it just a huge GIMICK to run an expensive casting and drag inducing toothed synchronous timing belt, only to run a bunch of mass-produced cheapo automotive ignition bits?

It's like 99% of the mass of these old magneto units, never mind comparing 'em on a weight-by-weight basis with the OEM ignition, is bent around running the thing at cam-shaft speed.

Of course there's a lot more available to us NOW, but IMHO the really trick thing would be to work up a period-correct transistorized ignition.

Surely there WAS such a unit, used on a period four-cylinder? Which could be reproduced with all period level tech, presumably with some Unobtainium acronym engraved ignition covers?

There are folks making 'em with new bits, I'm sure I've seen their websites while I was shopping for alternatives to the late-model KZ440 electronic ignition parts. I recall a bunch of stuff for British twins as well as SOME of the Japanese fours, though I don't recall a name......

Either way they're made with far more modern & miniaturized components.

I'm just curious what would be the equivalent which would make it's way through a strict interpretation of AHRMA rules.

-S.

Offline 754

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2015, 06:58:03 PM »
I don't care about zoot electronics... Rather look at a magneto hanging off my bike..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline SoyBoySigh

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2015, 02:08:13 PM »
Yeah, I get it - on the one hand there's the whole SCHLONG hanging off your bike type of thing, which is revealing but hey whatever. OR on the other hand, if you'd been really into the custom scene back in the day, spend gawd knows how much on bike magazines and #$%*, then the magneto would've become an integral part of YOUR mind's eye image of a period-correct HOT-ROD classic set-up!

And there's absolutely zero reason why you should have to rationalize that! I mean #$%* - we can yap about function all we want, the reason we're into classic bikes is all about the aesthetics. And for some of the more hopeless among us, some of the true "budget build" types -

(((Although I hasten to add that there's probably very few of you out there in a worse financial situation than I am, which is all the more indication of how bad I've got "the DISEASE"....)))

For a FEW of the young buggers ... they're still labouring under the delusion that they're saving $$$ by riding ... or rather OWNING ha-ha, an older bike!

But for the rest of us, it's ALL about the aesthetics. Both visual and auditory and even tactile in that the ill handling chassis can illicit excitement at the steady repetitious feelings of imminent death each time the bars jerk away from where you want 'em to go.

If it were ALL about function we'd all be riding crotch rockets.

Yet at the same time, our particular tastes in which era of vintage, doesn't quite allow us to let go of high performance altogether. We can APPRECIATE a powder-green Sunbeam with sprung-saddle & sprung-bucket side-car ... but do any of us wanna creep along at 40kph while every drunk in a pick-up truck swerves not to run us over? #$%* no.

I guess we're trapped in that paradox, where we love our classic bikes, but we've gotta have something quick enough to get the heck out of the way of the increasingly psychotic CAGER behaviour out there. HEAVY enough and fast enough that it's force of collision still presents enough force of impact to dent through the armoured air-bag sound-proof steel & safety-glass COCCOON, such that the cagers need to fear the immediate repercussions of running us over. And yet enough of a classic cool vibe so as to imply some element of delayed reaction repercussions from our loyal brethren AFTER the fact. Not looking like a squid on a crotch-rocket that every judge or insurance adjuster in the land would dismiss in a heart-beat, let alone the target on one's back painted when all of those young #$%*s cut everybody off in traffic while zooming past doing stunts for youtube, leaving a trail of bloody accidents in their wake. Don't wanna ride an identical bike & wear an identical outfit to THAT guy ha-ha. Yet at the same time, we can't stand the thought of riding the identical bike & identical "rebel" slash ultra-conformist UNIFORM as all of those OTHER guys ha-ha. 'Cause there's a certain style of attempting to exude that whole brooding menace that's just ... impotent!

So there's this whole sorta MIDDLE GROUND of classic bikes. Which at the same time, flips a finger at all of the ... extremophile regions of the biker-sphere, with the latent racism at the root of resentment toward "import" bikes (especially up here in Canada, where I don't see too many folks riding older Bombardier models). It's not too this, not too that. Yet offensive to all the right people for all the right reasons in a very worldly and modern sense.

And the only thing threatening to #$%* it all up for us are the Rockabilly bands and beard pomade salesmen who gather at the fringes of any sizeable bike gathering. Just as home-marketing types tend to creep into any other group of people. Used to be a lot simpler, but now we frown on smoking pot an riding (probably 'cause it's so much stronger these days, that old's-cool pot was more akin to drinking too much cappuccino) So they've had to hawk different garbage. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Adventure-Bike gatherings see their own share of TUPPERWARE salespeople ha-ha.

WHATEVER. All I'm saying is, if you feel you've gotta have an enormous Aluminum ... turgid SCHLONG hanging off the side of the bike and pointing toward your groin, then ALL POWER TO YOU.

Jeebuz. Do we wanna talk about the REAL hot set-up for high-power combustion? There's that Aprilia MOPED with the direct injection 50cc engine. I'd bet that thing's set up about a THOUSAND times better than the hottest tuned Superbike ever built.

Guess I should dig up the numbers, 'cause I've heard that one of the original Honda RC-series five or six cylinders held the all-time record for the most power per Litre. But with the caveat of being naturally aspirated. Whereas that RS50 moped has direct injection so it's not naturally aspirated. But I'd be curious to see how some old lady's casual shopping day trip moped compares on a Liter-for-Liter basis with the most delicious Unobtainium ever to touch down from some lofty height, then flitted away with the little white wings on it's tank.

But WE know BETTER than that. You don't walk into ... the Van Gogh museum, and compare his works to ... to a custom photo wallpaper mural you can order at the Quicki-Mart photo booth - not even if it's of your own kid's face. You don't compare the films of Andrei Tarkovsky with those of Michael Bay, & say they don't have enough ACTION.

That #$%*ing A.R.D. Magneto case - well maybe not yours, but ONE of 'em - okay maybe yours 'cause I'VE been typing about it on the internet ha-ha! The A.R.D. Magneto cover is gonna be in a MUSEUM some day - there will be a whole exhibition of Unobtainium crap, so that people of the future can understand WHY WE COOKED THE EARTH WITH GREENHOUSE GASES ... I mean so they can connect with their ancestors and this age of transportation and disgusting fossil fuels etc etc. Of course, the only vehicles we'll still HAVE in the future will be motorcycles, because it will be a civilized enlightened age. And the little children of the radioactive wasteland will crawl to BARTER-TOWN just to look at the collection of #$%*ty Detroit garbage and try & decipher the lettering printed on the signs made from ripped out pages from old hot rod magazines & #$%* -

And they will MARVEL at the beauty of the Aluminum castings, they'll declare the A.R.D. Magneto cover an icon of the peak-oil era, build temples worshipping the carbon belching tech that brought banana plantations to the Edmonton region,
to Edmonton region, they'll build a little flat base for 'em so they can stand up individually as effigies & idols of the Industrial age. They'll look at the different versions of SOHC CB750 and they'll say "THAT one's the male of the species, 'cause it's got that impressive SCHLONG hanging off the engine...."

Then they'll mosey on over to the DOHC Honda section and exclaim "CB900K0 Bol Bomber? Now THAT'S a friggin' BEAUTIFUL BIKE, man!"

-Sigh.

Offline 754

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2015, 02:49:06 PM »
After they see my replica 41 mm Rickman styled fork, with AP caliper....
And gaze at the brace of mighty Webers...noting the smoothness. Of my shaved valve cover, and the edginess of the hexed cylinder and head.. They will stop in their tracks.
 Then they will look in amazement at the magneto..not an ARD..  And the big Lockhart 700 c ooler with threaded ports and braided lines.
 They will notice the sexy lines of the Storz XR750 alloy tank, half painted half brushed alloy, and the matching handformed rear fender in brushed alloy.
 Which is sitting over the magnesium 3 spoke Dymag, held in place with an cr moly extended swingarm.. They will marvel at the sexiness of the handform alloy oil tank..........
 
 They ain't never gonna make it to the DOHC section that day......they will still be looking at the trick single cam Hondas..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline BPellerine

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2015, 03:43:18 PM »
cool rant from both,I don't think my bike would be complete without the webers and ard now that I have them!bill
1978 CB 750K ard and webers
another anfob

Offline rotortiller

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2015, 07:26:32 PM »
Two sets of stock points or two hall signals, 4 coils and a black box using a cam position sensor to tell/interrupt selective coil circuit (manage/reference which cylinder of the  2 pairs is on compression) should do the trick. My feeling is it's basically a waste of time, money and effort since the bike will run the same. Then again there is a sucker born every minute and it could be a money maker for someone. LOL

rt

Offline Big Jay

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2015, 12:43:25 AM »
It was done back in the day with both mags and ignitions and it made no more power than a standard Dyna S. Firing the empty cylinder does not hurt anything.

Offline BPellerine

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Re: non wasted spark cb750 igniton?
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2015, 02:43:38 PM »
I will admit that it is a visual thing more than anything these days,with all the new stuff out there.bill
1978 CB 750K ard and webers
another anfob