Topic: CB450 vs. XS650?

[kirkn]

Opinions?

I've never owned nor ridden either one.  But, I've been tempted by both at one time or another.  And sooner or later, I'll be in the market for another bike, and have been thinking about these two.

Anybody got experience on one or the other, or preferably both?

I'm not concerned about outright power or top speed or acceleration, cause I usually just tool around anyway.  But, which is the better bike?

I think the 450 has a 180-degree crank which, I think, makes them a bit smoother, a bit less vibration.  The 650, OTOH, doesn't it have a 360-degree crank with pistons rising and falling together.  This gives it a more even firing order, but those twin rising and falling pistons can lead to worse vibrations.  Or am I completely off base.

Thoughts?

[bill440cars]

Opinions?

I've never owned nor ridden either one.  But, I've been tempted by both at one time or another.  And sooner or later, I'll be in the market for another bike, and have been thinking about these two.

Anybody got experience on one or the other, or preferably both?

I'm not concerned about outright power or top speed or acceleration, cause I usually just tool around anyway.  But, which is the better bike?

I think the 450 has a 180-degree crank which, I think, makes them a bit smoother, a bit less vibration.  The 650, OTOH, doesn't it have a 360-degree crank with pistons rising and falling together.  This gives it a more even firing order, but those twin rising and falling pistons can lead to worse vibrations.  Or am I completely off base.

Thoughts?

          Kirk, I've only riden a 650 once and the handlebars are the biggest thing I remember not liking about it (and, of course, those can be changed). I have had some experience with the 450 and really like them myself. It's got torque, it runs out great and just feels good to me. Now, there are some who've got lots more time with them, than I do and would be good to hear what they have to say.  That's just MY 2 cents worth.  

         For sure, crazypj (pj may also have some 450 time as well) and tintin have some XS650 experience and another Bill (tbpmusic) has a good amount of 450 time as well. And, I believe Mark (HondaMan) has some insight on the 450 as well, I could be wrong, but I think he does.

[pdxPope]

Well, I've never owned a 450 (although I hear they feel top-heavy) but I have owned 2 XS650's.
They are great bikes! Simple, reliable (once you get the ubiquitous charging issues dealt with) and tons of low end grunt.

Probably what makes them a great 'vintage' rider is the HUGE support system in place. I've found 2 or 3 websites like this one and an online store (MikesXS) which has enough parts available to practically build an entire bike from scratch.

Get one made after '78 if you want electronic ignition. And I would suggest you do it quickly, IMHO they are the next Jap classic to pop. Right now you can find an honest 'rider' for $800-1200; but I've already seen prices going up. And, of course, the early ones (1970-1975) are getting more and more rare and expensive.

-JP

[bucky katt]

450 vibrates less i'm told

[BeSeeingYou]

I have owned a 79 XS650 Special for 30 years and recently picked up a 75 Standard.  While the 360 crank does make for more vibration it does make for a better sounding bike than a 180 crank on a twin.  More low end power too.  If you are just going to be tooling around town the vibration is not really that big a deal.  Hell, I rode mine from Minnesota to California and back.  The 650 has great parts availability (OEM and custom)with a large support network.  The engine is rock solid, simple  and super reliable.  I have 30K on my 79 and it has never broken down on me and has never required anything but routine maintenance.

The electronic ignition is on the 1980-84 bikes.  So what year and model are you looking at? The "Standards" ran from 1970-1979 and the Special ran from 1978-1984.  The Standards are considered the more collectible.  The frame was improved in 1974 and in 77 a change to a slightly stiffer front fork was made.  IMO the 1978-9 Specials are better than the later Specials in looks when they went to the "fatter" stepped  seat and plastic side covers.  78-9 Specials  are the only 650's with a rear disc brake.    Some don't like the bars on the Special models but they are comfortable on a long trip but they would actually look better with a different set of bars.  The Standards have similar bars to what you would find on a Honda.  Special II's had spoked wheels and rear drum brakes reguardless of year. 

[kirkn]

Thanks, all, for the input.

I'm not looking at any particular year or model, yet.  But, I'm always surfing the local Craigslist and they come up periodically - both the CB and the XS.

I only have a small '74 CB200 nowadays for street riding.  It's fun (and it has family history for me), but I'm sure I'll be wanting a bigger streetbike sooner or later.

I'm kinda partial to twins lately.  Had a Honda Ascot - thumper was nice, but been there done that, now.  Had a '78 CB750K, and that just seemed too big / wide / heavy.  Comfy to be sure, but....

So, that narrows me down to only a few models - the XS, the XS750 and XS500 twins (bad reps and all...) the CB450/500T, Suzuki's one-year GR650 Tempter and Kawasaki's KZ750 twin.  All of 'em interesting, but I'm just kinda looking for opinions...

All the Japanese mfg's made many different models in smaller displacements (350~450cc) but I was thinking about just a bit more oomph.

Hmmm.......   

[Uncle Ernie]

Unless one falls into your lap, forget about the Tempter- there just aren't very many around.  The fact that they're not collector's items or even sought after says something about them also.

The dangerous thing about the Honda 450 is falling asleep from boredom- and crashing.  (Yes, I had one...)  They're OK, but

I'd go for the XS650.  Great all-round bike.

[Roach Carver]

never had a 450 but did have a xs650. good bike. fair amount of vibration but a classy looking bike and very reliable.

[tortelvis]

You can almost nothing for the CB450 now, all discontinued while there are plenty of places catering to the XS650. I had a '69 450 and would shake yer fillings out! The '70 model with a disc brake and 5 spped was much better.

[Caminokid]

This is a hard one for me. I love both of those bikes. Owned many of both. The 450..yeah it does vibrate less. Both bike have lots of torque. Both fast off the line. The 650...you set it up on the center stand on cement and rev it....it will vibrate backwards. Both very dependable. You will be happy with either bike. You want to go faster then 80 with a stock bike...get the 650. You want a great bike to just hop on and run around town...get the 450. They both are really fun bikes to ride.

[lordmoonpie]

....you want a bike to tune moderately in order to upset bigger bikes, get the CB450. Yes a lot of parts are heading towards the obsolete now but there's a growing worldwide aftermarket parts scene and loads of breaker bikes to source cheap secondhand parts from.

The CB450 has more cachet too - the first mass market DOHC bike? It looks and sounds great, is easy to work on once you know what you're doing and is smooth to ride even when highly tuned like mine. The Yam....well it's a dependable scoot, but it's not that special, not that uncommon and not that good looking IMHO

[borzwazie]

I have a CB450 mutant that I just got on the road:



It's starting to make lots of cam chain noise, so it's back into the garage for a teardown. It's due, really, since I never went through the motor. It just fired right back up after many years of sitting under the awning of a shed. I put about 300 miles on it so I'm pretty happy right now.

It's a great bike, plenty of power, though you won't be smoking any GSXRs with it. The stock rubber handlebar mounts really isolate a lot of vibration, so if you go the clipon route like I did, expect a lot of buzziness in the right hand. The steering is a bit slow, and the stock rear shocks are underdamped, so expect to crank the spring all the way up to compensate or better yet buy new rear shocks.

Intact original exhaust are becoming difficult to find, and expensive. Omar's makes an exhaust, I believe you can get one from Jemco, and Swarbricks Racing will make you a very expensive exhaust. Benji's Caferacer makes a beautiful stainless exhaust for this thing, but it's 800 bucks.

There are very few new cam chain rollers left, as Honda has stopped making them. New fork tubes can be had if yours are pitted (from Forking by Franks) but expect to pay a lot of money. I just used a CB750 front end.

It's simple to do valve adjustments, and the only really special tools you need are to pull the alternator and the centrifugal oil filter (and you can make tools for both). The valve adjuster and cam covers polish up really easily and look killer.

If you need new coils, I have found via hondatwins that the XS650 coils are good replacements for the stock coils when they go bad.

There's no question that the XS650 has a better aftermarket - if you don't want to futz about looking for non-available spares, go that route. However, the CB450 is a pretty great bike.

[bill440cars]

    Man, I sure DO like THIS ONE! That is a REALLY cool build alright, Need to know details (Please). Got some 450 projects in MY futrure also.    And could we have some more photos?


                             

[borzwazie]

thanks bill!

I have a whole thread on this bike over at caferacer.net:

http://caferacer.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2827

It started like this:



and ended like this:







It looks shiny in that pic, but I have to say that polished and clearcoated steel flash rusts very quickly. So, since I've pulled it off the road for a rebuild, I'm considering paints now. I tried canary yellow and I don't like it so I'm still thinking about colors...

[borzwazie]

Some tech specs (this is a bitsa for sure!  )

Bike: '73 CB450
Engine: '76? (not sure) CB500T
Tank: CX500D (custom front and rear mounts)
Forks: '78 CB750F SS
Front wheel: '79 CB750K
Front rotor: '81 (I think) CB900F
Front caliper: '78 CB750F, soon to be replaced with a CB900F dual-piston caliper
Front fender: '78 CB750.
Rims: Some aluminum rims I found that fit, one's a DID, the other's an Akront.
Seat: hacked together from the stock seatpan and the back end of a rusted-out CB450 tank.
Speedo mount: hacked from sheet aluminum with a craftsman jigsaw.
Taillight: LED, courtesy Walmart and some bent scrap steel.

One change I've made since these pics were taken was to pull the stock airbox tubes from the stock boxes - they fit perfectly inside those cheap pods, and I get my low-end response back.

[bill440cars]

Some tech specs (this is a bitsa for sure!  )

Bike: '73 CB450
Engine: '76? (not sure) CB500T
Tank: CX500D (custom front and rear mounts)
Forks: '78 CB750F SS
Front wheel: '79 CB750K
Front rotor: '81 (I think) CB900F
Front caliper: '78 CB750F, soon to be replaced with a CB900F dual-piston caliper
Front fender: '78 CB750.
Rims: Some aluminum rims I found that fit, one's a DID, the other's an Akront.
Seat: hacked together from the stock seatpan and the back end of a rusted-out CB450 tank.
Speedo mount: hacked from sheet aluminum with a craftsman jigsaw.
Taillight: LED, courtesy Walmart and some bent scrap steel.

One change I've made since these pics were taken was to pull the stock airbox tubes from the stock boxes - they fit perfectly inside those cheap pods, and I get my low-end response back.

       Hey, Appreciate the info on that Great Looking 450/500!   Have to tell you that I had NO IDEA about that gas tank. I don't know the different models like some do and didn't realize that the gas tank wasn't a special piece! Now THAT is encouraging! Awesome build, I am most impressed! Thanks for posting,   Bill

[bucky katt]

thanks bill!

I have a whole thread on this bike over at caferacer.net:

http://caferacer.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2827

It started like this:



and ended like this:







It looks shiny in that pic, but I have to say that polished and clearcoated steel flash rusts very quickly. So, since I've pulled it off the road for a rebuild, I'm considering paints now. I tried canary yellow and I don't like it so I'm still thinking about colors...

THATS why your handle looked famiiar to me. i'm fuzzybutt on caferacer.net

[333]

My first bike was a later model 450(forget which one, tagged as a '73) and it would stay nose to nose with a CB750K4 until I had to shift.

[72 yellow]

My first new bike was a 70 1/2 CB450.  Had it for 2 years.  Ran the piss out of it.  A great bike.  One of my buddies rode a 1969 BSA Lightning.  Had no trouble keeping up with him.  Sold it in 73 to purchase a XLH Sportster.

[lordmoonpie]

There's no question that the XS650 has a better aftermarket - if you don't want to futz about looking for non-available spares, go that route. However, the CB450 is a pretty great bike.

I think this needs qualifying a little - the XS650 has a better aftermarket if you want to stay with stock or direct OEM replacement parts. If you're not bothered about authentic parts, the sky's the limit with the 450 and you can tune them well into the 65bhp+ bracket, making them more than a match for a standard 750. If you want to go extreme you can very easily, there's tons of replacements to enhance standard parts. For example, who will know whether you're running a stock honda set of camchain tensioner wheels or a full blown race tensioner setup?!

[bill440cars]

There's no question that the XS650 has a better aftermarket - if you don't want to futz about looking for non-available spares, go that route. However, the CB450 is a pretty great bike.

I think this needs qualifying a little - the XS650 has a better aftermarket if you want to stay with stock or direct OEM replacement parts. If you're not bothered about authentic parts, the sky's the limit with the 450 and you can tune them well into the 65bhp+ bracket, making them more than a match for a standard 750. If you want to go extreme you can very easily, there's tons of replacements to enhance standard parts. For example, who will know whether you're running a stock honda set of camchain tensioner wheels or a full blown race tensioner setup?!

           Ah Yes, enters Simon (with the "Ultimate 450!   )! Wondered how long before you would see AND enter into this discussion. Good to see you Simon, Guess YOU and the "Bomber" are still doing well? Hope so. Guess it's ALL up to what a person wants and how far he will go to get it, huh? While I like both, I'd probably go with the 450 too!    

           BTW, have ALWAYS like your 450 Simon, ever since you posted photos of it!

[lordmoonpie]

Thanks Bill, you're a Gent 
The 450 is good thanks - now upgraded a bit more so I have an adjustable crankcase breather instead of the original dipstick. Just looking to retime the ignition when I can get a mate over to help run the starters....and looking forward t next season now as the race season is almost over here - just a few weeks to go.

Man - where'd 2009 go?! 

[tbpmusic]

Opinions?

I've never owned nor ridden either one.  But, I've been tempted by both at one time or another.  And sooner or later, I'll be in the market for another bike, and have been thinking about these two.

Anybody got experience on one or the other, or preferably both?

I'm not concerned about outright power or top speed or acceleration, cause I usually just tool around anyway.  But, which is the better bike?

I think the 450 has a 180-degree crank which, I think, makes them a bit smoother, a bit less vibration.  The 650, OTOH, doesn't it have a 360-degree crank with pistons rising and falling together.  This gives it a more even firing order, but those twin rising and falling pistons can lead to worse vibrations.  Or am I completely off base.

Thoughts?

Just my 2 cents - I've ridden both bikes extensively, and you'd be happy with either. Both are pleasurable to ride. Being at least a decade newer in design, the 650 has some areas that are better (like suspension).
The 450 is a bit lighter and more nimble, the 650 a bit more powerful. They both handle pretty well and are good, tractable street machines.

A good point was raised about parts - there is a tremendous aftermarket system for the 650, not so much for 450's - and the supply of used parts (and bikes, for that matter) for 450's is drying up quickly as more folks jump into the old bike scene.
However, given lots of $$$$, performance parts for 450's are out there.

It was always regretful to me that Honda did not expand the 450 format and kick it up to a 650 or even 750 twin - what a bike that would have been.............

[crazypj]

Hi Bill440,
 You know I've had time on both 
 For street use, either, depending on original condition when you get it.
 For restoration to original or cafe/flatrack/etc, XS650, its easier if you don't have lot of experience chasing down parts (and even if you do)
 as previously mentioned, 650 has more torque, power,and , weight.
 450 is lighter and feels 'different', more like a big 250.
 saying that, how deep are your pockets?
 Probably more XS650's available, cheaper than 450, (which is why I have 5 XS's and ZERO 450's  ) more parts available for XS unless your racing, when 'everything' is available for 450.

PJ

[Brian G]

I'm a bit surprised that only one mention has been made of how they sound!

It is, of course, completely subjective but for tooling around town, nothing compares with the sound of a 360 degree twin (triples, fours and sixes  () are apples and oranges and in classes of their own). I like the 450 for the same reason I like my CBX - they are technical tours-de-force - torsion bar valve springs and DOHC for the 450 and 24 valves/6 cylinders for the CBX, but I like the XS650 for the same reason I like my BSA - they are visceral, primitive and raw - the power comes in pulses rather than a smooth flow, you feel every revolution of the engine and the bottom end grunt is every bit as satisfying - and considerably more useful on a day-to-day basis - as an 9500 rpm redline.

As I say, its all totally subjective. I'd buy either or both of them without a second thought and enjoy them both immensely. Different strokes, as it were, for different folks

Regards,
Brian

[borzwazie]

There's no question that the XS650 has a better aftermarket - if you don't want to futz about looking for non-available spares, go that route. However, the CB450 is a pretty great bike.

I think this needs qualifying a little - the XS650 has a better aftermarket if you want to stay with stock or direct OEM replacement parts. If you're not bothered about authentic parts, the sky's the limit with the 450 and you can tune them well into the 65bhp+ bracket, making them more than a match for a standard 750. If you want to go extreme you can very easily, there's tons of replacements to enhance standard parts. For example, who will know whether you're running a stock honda set of camchain tensioner wheels or a full blown race tensioner setup?!

man, I can't even afford the pipes you have on that thing let alone the rest of it  I think a full race tensioner setup is around 4-500 US dollars 

[tbpmusic]

Guess I'll throw a couple of shots of my 450 in here - the Build Log is at  http://home.comcast.net/~tbpmusic/id54.htm

A ton of photos and details there -


Before  (YUK !!)::::




After :::







Incidentally, I've since put on a longer sidestand - from a 550 four, so I guess it's ok to post ??  

[scout4924]

Interesting thread! as I have a 450 with 8100 miles on it sitting in the donators shed. So since it's complete and free for the taking, I should stop lerking around Craigs list and Ebay and go get it! 65hp! WOW! now all I need is expertice and cash. Things I seem to lack. Oh well, here goes! Thanks for such good insite and knowledge!
This board has helped alot with my cb500 build. So thanks again.

[lordmoonpie]

man, I can't even afford the pipes you have on that thing let alone the rest of it  I think a full race tensioner setup is around 4-500 US dollars 

You need to have a chat with Bernie Saunders in the Uk - he has magic race tensioner parts for half that cost....well every little helps eh? 

[Pinhead]

How do the older CB450T's compare to the newer ('79 to '80s) CB/CM 400/450?

[crazypj]

How do the older CB450T's compare to the newer ('79 to '80s) CB/CM 400/450?

 They don't.
 Old ones were over engineered and overweight because of it..
 New ones were reasonably well made but designed to be 'disposable'
 They are pretty damn reliable and bulletproof though, probably more reliable than 'original'

PJ

[drgonzo]

I have owned both bikes. One CB450 and several XS650s. The 450 is a vibrator. The later 650s 74 and up are smoother than the earlier long rod engines. The performance of the 450 is close to the 650. I liked both.