Author Topic: Spark Plug? 78 cb750 ? about Nippon X24ES-U  (Read 11891 times)

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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Spark Plug? 78 cb750 ? about Nippon X24ES-U
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2015, 09:56:35 AM »
Quote
8mm graphite suppression core
An old and experienced Honda mechanic once told me that he never wanted to use graphite core anymore. It can become brittle.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Spark Plug? 78 cb750 ? about Nippon X24ES-U
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2015, 08:28:48 AM »
I didn't realize Denso has a X24ESR-U.
I assume the "R" refers to a resistor version.

Thanks



Since the swirl-charge design in these engines makes the most of the longer spark duration, giving it will make for a nicer ride, especially at speed. ;)

Now, longer spark will exactly do what?  I would assume once the mixture is ignited, there is no longer need for the spark while the "ball of fire" is spreading away from the igniting point.  The spark lasting longer does not have anything else to ignite.
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Spark Plug? 78 cb750 ? about Nippon X24ES-U
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2015, 08:44:38 AM »
Since the swirl-charge design in these engines makes the most of the longer spark duration, giving it will make for a nicer ride, especially at speed. ;)

Now, longer spark will exactly do what?  I would assume once the mixture is ignited, there is no longer need for the spark while the "ball of fire" is spreading away from the igniting point.  The spark lasting longer does not have anything else to ignite.

I think the longer spark helps to invite the AF charge as it swirls through the plug path creating a more complete burn and therefor haight pressure on the piston. That argument also supports multi spark ignitions.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Spark Plug? 78 cb750 ? about Nippon X24ES-U
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2015, 12:34:37 PM »
Quote
8mm graphite suppression core
An old and experienced Honda mechanic once told me that he never wanted to use graphite core anymore. It can become brittle.
I bought the cables together with Dyna-S ignition with Dyna coils to replace my fried Pamco due to bad Ultimate coils last year.
Charging issues with 3 ohms coils ended up in 5 ohms coils and later on back to points but good one, TEC + Hondaman module.

I'll see how long the cables will last. I can use std copper wires with NGK 5K caps with my current setup. Only good wires missing.
I bought complete ign cables from a cheap auto store. Theye were really crap when they all had different resistance, 3kohms-8kohms.

I have thanks to this thread ordered 8 plugs, 4 x NGK DR8EIX and 4 X Denso IX24. Will be tested when engine runs fine. I have some NGK D8EA to test with first.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Spark Plug? 78 cb750 ? about Nippon X24ES-U
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2015, 06:53:50 AM »
Recommended in a 550? Doing a long road trip and am worried about engine temp with prolonged use of the D7's

We always switched the D7 to the X24 when touring on 500/550 bikes, until the 55 MPH speed limit came into being. Then, it didn't seem to overheat the 500 (I had one of them at the time) at 55, so we only changed them if the customer requested it after that. Today, at 70 MPH, I'd recommend the X24 again, for sure. I run them in my 750 all the time, and in all the bikes I build or service. They boost the midrange torque a little because of the U-shaped ground electrode, which lets the fuel mix flow a little better through the spark: on the 750K engines (swirl charge heads) this ignites a wider swath of the moving mixture during the 1.5mS long spark (Honda coils).

HondaMan

This is great info. You have an amazing amount of technical knowledge and I appreciate you sharing it with us. I have a hot little CB550 with electronic ignition and the ignition manufacturer recomends resistor plugs. Would you suggest the Denso X24EPR-U9 as the resistor equivalent to the X24ES-U for this application? How about the Iridium IX24B? Do Iridium tipped plugs offer any advantage?

Thanks
Jimmy
I am not sure what the ...-U9 designation means?
Here's some skinny so you can ferret out such things on your own: the U-shaped ground electrode on the "Hot U" sparkplugs were thought to be largely a sales gimmick, but it separated this plug from the standard X24ES plugs in one important way: the center tip has a thinner ceramic shell and a 1.5mm longer tip on the "-U" plug as compared to their regular (automotive-type) plug. The D8ES-L was a similar story compared to the D8ES (now called D8EA) in NGK, but the ND is thinner still. This thinness disturbs the fast swirl less than standard tips, and the extra reach puts it further out into the mixture.

The Iridium plugs I have seen (for cars) have a very fine wire at their tips. In the 1990s this was the "platinum tipped" plug. The smaller electrode tip requires less voltage to let the spark jump the gap, so it fires ever-so-slightly sooner than a standard tip, advancing your timing a hair. Hence, the "increased power" feeling you think you get from using these plugs. The tradeoff for this is: increased electrode tip erosion (wear) compared to standard plugs. In the 1990s they compensated for this by adding platinum to the tips to reduce this wear.

Here's an old 'racer's trick' that I've used non-stop since 1973 (even on my cars, and I have sparkplugs in constant use since 1973 from it): since a sharp(er) edge or small(er) 'tip' is where the high voltage will start its jump, all else being equal in the area, I use a tiny flat file to file the tip of the electrode square and flat. The sharpest edge available at the moment of spark is where the arc will start, and after that arc, that edge site edge is not as sharp. If you look closely at a used plug, you will always see the edges of the center electrode have become rounded: these are the sites where the electrons have jumped to the ground side during the arc, which the uninformed call "the tip burning away". It's actually just moved itself to the ground electrode, one electron at a time. This is why industrial engines (real big ones that use gasoline, alcohol, or natural gas) use 2 long, pointed tips that are gapped using mechanical clamps: the gap never changes, just moves from one side (electrode) to the other. After lots and lots of hours, the electrode tips get moved apart because the electrons don't land in a point, just wherever they can, so the gap grows. Then techs "re-gap" their igniters (they aren't called "sparkplugs" in those engines), because the gap moves away from the center target zone. The Blackmer engines I have seen like this (big ship engines) have a 1/4" thick pointed rod (2 of them) bent at an angle, pointed at each other in the chamber (.080" apart). As they slowly shorten one and grow the other, the gap moves away from the "best location" (this is sometimes called the "zero site" or "centerfire position") in the combustion chamber and the engine gets less efficient at firing the mixture. The tech unclamps and slides them out, grinds their tips pointy again, measures the lengths, and [re]sets them into their vernier-marked clamps to their new 'endspace', which is the distance from the top of these electrodes to the outer end of the electrode(s) that will make their tips be .080" apart inside the chamber again.

Interesting stuff! But, we can do it ourselves on these engines, and it pays back in little ways you can feel.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Spark Plug? 78 cb750 ? about Nippon X24ES-U
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2015, 11:10:32 AM »
I have today NGK D8EA with Dynatek wires, DW-1200 Grey siilicone, 8mm graphite suppression core. I measured each wire around 5 kohms.  Dyna 5ohms coils, TEC points and Hondaman ign module.
I'll try resistor plugs like the expensive NGK Iridium DR8EIX when I have adjusted the carbs.  Maybe Dyno test before and after plug change so I'll know.

Update: Deltarider was right about the brittle wire.  One of my Dynatek graphite wires might have been bad from the beginning last year...
I have now replaced the Dynatek wires with working and reliable wires with copper core. I found out that one of the wires had intermittent failures that have done my carb jetting to a constantly moving target. Engine could sound lean on low when the wire played games with me. Or stumbling later on that could be taken for too rich.

Engine runs smooth now with good copper core leads and NGK 5Kohms plug caps, plugs  NGK D8EA.
Irridium plugs when carbs are tuned. I have both NGK and Denso (I order plugs from UK when they cost half compared with Sweden, therefore several sets when order) I have several setups of fouled Denso X24ES-U after carb jetting sessions.

NGK plug caps do not need plug nuts as the Dynatek wires. Honda OEM plug wrench cannot handle the nut when the rubber insulation inside is too narrow for the nut.
I have ordered several meters copper core ignition wires plus double sets of NGK plug caps as spare and for next project from UK, http://gsparkplug.com/

I have booked time for a complete carb setup session with Dyno at my local tuner. I hope it will run very well  after that with 4-1 so I can change the setup to 4-4, Yamiya HM300 no number replica's witout diffusers to ensure flow.
Then back to the Dyno again...... I have to know the result with 4-1 so I can compare with back in the 80's. It should run better now with better carbs and hotter cam that might need more compression than 10 something due to more overlap.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 11:16:21 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Spark Plug? 78 cb750 ? about Nippon X24ES-U
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2015, 07:32:36 PM »
I didn't realize Denso has a X24ESR-U.
I assume the "R" refers to a resistor version.

Thanks



Since the swirl-charge design in these engines makes the most of the longer spark duration, giving it will make for a nicer ride, especially at speed. ;)

Now, longer spark will exactly do what?  I would assume once the mixture is ignited, there is no longer need for the spark while the "ball of fire" is spreading away from the igniting point.  The spark lasting longer does not have anything else to ignite.

The "big secret" about the SOHC4 engines is what makes the long-duration spark so important.
These engines up to the F2/3 (they are different) are "swirl-charge" engines. This technology Honda adapted from their famous CVCC 2-chamber engines of the 1960s, which met 1980 emissions levels before ANYONE was required to reduce pollutants, while delivering almost 100 HP from a 1+ Liter engine. But, they also seemed to do it for another reason: more power and better fuel mileage.

The intake and exhaust ports in the heads are angled into the chambers, and there is additional shrouding, especially in the K0-K4 engines (less so in the later ones) placed specifically to turn the incoming air-fuel mixture, so it spins in and downward like a little tornado. As the piston rises toward compression, this accelerates greatly, approaching the speed of sound in the K0-K4 engines, as a spinning vortex. When the (longer-duration) spark fires, it ignites a long, curved arc of flamefront. The longer this flamefront, the stronger and more complete the burn will become, producing more power with less throttle opening.

There is another benefit from this "whirlwind effect" (that's what Honda engineers called it in the CVCC engines) which is this: the centrifugal force of this tornado presses the mixture out toward the cylinder walls to make it become a rich, thin layer while it makes the center portion very lean. This effect then cools the walls even as the extra-rich layer begins to become hot, finally igniting the leaner center portion at a time when a conventional engine's charge is beginning to burn out. This produces a longer push down the bore than a conventional ball-burn shape. In an undersquare engine like the 750 and 350F (and 250F), this translates directly into a stronger low- to mid-range torque curve. This is where the more-than-expected low-end torque in these 2 engines comes from, in fact. These engines are made, and timed, to produce max horsepower at RPMs that were considered stratospheric in the 1970s, yet you could drop 2 people and their touring gear aboard and roll off the miles effortlessly at low-midrange engine speeds.

The longer spark causes a wide arc to burn, nearly a complete "circle of fire" at RPMs above 3500 or so. I can write out the calcs if anyone cares, but suffice it to say, it's not hard to figure out. The airspeeds at 5500 RPM come out around 700 ft/sec inside the engine.

The inner evidence of this is plain when you see these engines' wear patterns. In the first case, you find a pretty thick layer of carbon on the head surface and the piston: this is from being wetted by the richness being pressed against those surfaces, and the extra cooling this provides prevents it from being burned off. If the engines are not revved enough, this becomes too thick and needs some help to remove it, or else the engines develop preignition spark knock: this was the struggle when the carbs were set at 120 mainjets with the needles in the center notch (K0 and Old Factory K1) and the 55 MPH speed limit hit the USA. No one was riding at 6000 RPM anymore, and the engines were clogging up badly with carbon, then preignition was bluing the pipes and exhaust valves. In the second case, the sharp ridges in the K0/1/2/3 combustion chambers slowly wear away from the constant winds. This can be seen when you have a young K1 and a hi-mileage K1 head apart side-by-side, and it's REAL interesting to study! Carbon bits moving at 700 MPH gotta hurt...In the post-1974 designs, the most notable change is the reduction of the sharp ridges and deep valve seat pockets that make this shaping: these later engines have smaller combustion chambers by about 0.5-0.6cc than the earlier ones, and often their compression checks come in at 140 PSI instead of the more common 125 PSI because of this difference. This improves MPG, which was part of how Honda got 50 MPG out of the K4/5/6 engines when the US was having the [in]famous gasoline shortages back then.

When the engines changed to have rounder (i.e., more hemi-like) chambers in the 750F0 bikes, the intent was to increase the low-end torque through a faster burn rate instead of a prolonged 2-stage burn. This is a hallmark of the hemi head designs: they can burn in a ball shape after ignition if the mixtures are even. But, the carbs and hoses and exhaust and ALL that other 'stuff' that cost so much to engineer in the earlier bikes needed to stay, lest the 750 become too expensive to make. Many people like to say this was where Sochiro himself "stepped back in" to work in the R&D group for the F0, and it may be true: he also designed the hemi-head 50/70/70/100/125cc engines, you may remember...in any case, the intake cam timing had to back off to prevent blowback up the intake tract with a hemi design, because the swirl, now largely gone, would not fight back against the exhaust pressures anymore, and the pressures back across the top of the pistons could then induce more "burnback" (aka backfire) up the intake tract at low RPM. This causes big flat spots (aka CB500/550 engines) that come to life like a switch was thrown once the burnback rate is pushed back into the engine by the intake velocities (air has push and mass of its own, you know...). (A side note: this is why the intake tracts of the mid-Fours is so long: it reduces the burnback - but that's a topic for my next book.) So, the cam timing changed to open later and stay open longer after BDC, all to create lower chamber pressure when the intake valve opened again. The 4-1 pipes were arranged to extract the pressures, too, with a collector arrangement and a LARGE muffler for low pressures. The tops of the pistons in the F0/F1 engines were domed a little bit to make up the compression difference: in the later F and K7/8 engines they were domed more to help prevent some of the blowback that still existed in the 4500-5500 RPM range, which impeded the power noticeably at around-town engine speeds in 3rd gear, where most city riders live (and, unfortunately, where 55 MPH touring also lived). The spark advancers in the F2/3 and K7/8 engines advance later, too, to help with this (and this helps ALL the SOHC4 engines today, as the springs have largely become weakened by years, rust, and heating cycles).

So, in a sentence...the longer the spark duration, the wider the 'ring of fire' that develops during the burn cycle, the less the blowback into the carbs, and the cooler the engine will run. I have tested ALL of these things on my bike(s) and know it to be true.

;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Spark Plug? 78 cb750 ? about Nippon X24ES-U
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2015, 03:43:05 AM »
Thank you, Mark!
Prokop
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I love it when parts come together.

Dorothy - my CB750
CB750K3F - The Red
Sidecar


CB900C

2006 KLR650