Author Topic: Starter Solenoid  (Read 3798 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Starter Solenoid
« on: August 21, 2009, 09:43:24 am »
Are the starter solenoids serviceable in any way? Besides cleaning contacts, etc.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline mcpuffett

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,354
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2009, 10:24:39 am »
I read somewhere maybe on here of someone taking them apart and cleaning them up or repairing them with success? may have been johhny from belgium? never had to try myself yet ;), cheers Mick.
Honda CB750 KO 1970,   Honda VTX 1300 2006, Lancaster England.

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2009, 11:08:04 am »
Unless the spring has somehow broken, there isn't really much of anything that can be serviced aside from just cleaning up the contact points. 

Offline AshimotoK0

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 592
  • CB400/4, 69 CB750K0, '69 CB250SS, CB350K1 CB500K0
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2009, 11:36:57 am »
I manufacture test computer controlled test rigs for a UK company who manufacture Starter solenoid DC switches.

My CB750K0 starter solenoid switch is stripped down, as we speak, for rebuilding. To dismantleand evaluate / repair
1) Release the cable wiring from the clip by carefully unfolding it.
2) Remove the 2 crosshead screws
3) The two wires are sometimes soldered into rivets within the thermoset plastic cover but on the Denso one on my '69 they are internaly soldered to the enamelled electromagnet wire and are fed into little rubber grommet sleeves.
4) For the rivet type you have to simultaneously heat up the two soldered joints to remove the plastic cover, desoldering the wires from the rivets. For the Denso type with no rivets you gradually pull off the cover so that the wires feed through the grommets. You can then reveal the joint of magnet wire/cable and either snip this or desolder it. There are little bits of glass reinforced sleeve over the enamelled wire.
5) The cover has two copper studs which have rectangular contact faces (on the types I test these have precious metal tips). Examine these for pitting/electrical erosion or corrosion and if necessary dress with a fine file.
6) The moving contacts are a metal bar, again copper (on the types I test these too have precious metal tips). Again examine this bar for pitting/electrical erosion or corrosion and if necessary dress with a fine file. It may even be possible to turn this upside down if the surface is too bad. To do this you gently bend out the four tabs on the top 4-winged washer and then push this down to reveal a circlip which can then be removed. One important thing to check is the state of the phenolic thermoset plastic cover, particularly where the studs fit. If this is overheated and blisterd and smells fishy then the contacts have overheated. It may clean up but if not then you will need to find a spare from a scrap one.
7) Examine the the movement of the contact bar. When you grasp it and pull on it you should feel the compression of the movement of the solenoid armature though a few millimetres of travel against it's spring. If you push on it you should feel the pressure of the compression of the contact spring. These spring operations are crucial to the correct operation and prevention of arcing and overheating.
8) Whilst the solenoid is stripped down connect 12v from a battery or 3A PSU to the two magnet wires and you should observe the armature flying out due to the electromagnetic force generated. You should check the coil resistance with an ohm-meter. It should typically be 3-4 OHMs but this changes a bit (increases) as the coil warms up. There should be infinite resistance between the metal can (mag frame) and any of the two coil wires. If there is anything less than 1 megohm then there is either moisture in the unit or the magnet wire insulation is breaking down
9) These type of switches are intermittently rated at typically less than 25% duty cycle so be careful not to operate the coil for longer than a few seconds.
10) To use the old chestnut ' Reassembly is the the reverse of this procedure'. When reassembled make sure you have a good seal against moisture ingress, particularly where the coloured wires feed through the top cover grommet sleeves. This can be aided by using a little silicone grease on the grommet on reassembly.

11) If you need to clean up the copper contacts you can use lemon juice (or citric acid) by the way. Wash it off afterwards though
12) When you test out after reassembly, before you fit to the bike , power up the coil and measure the resistance between the two copper studs after you hear the click. It should read zero ohms on an ohm-meter. If you have any contact resistance, as soon as you pass the inrush current of the starter motor through it there will be localised heating and burnout.
13) The oscillation you get when you operate the solenoid with a weak battery is known as 'doorbeling 'and can seriously damage contacts. I have a patent in my name for an electronic device which prevents this but unfortunately it was developed whilst I was working for a company and I make nothing from it!!

There are lots of variants out there but all the same basic operation. If you have any specifics PM me or reply to this post.

The only reason I went to all the effort of repairing mine is due to the old 'K0 obsessive syndrome' of keeping everything standard. I could easily fit one of the ones my equipment tests millions of each year!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 11:39:31 am by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.”

Offline mcpuffett

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,354
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2009, 01:12:50 pm »
Bloody hell Ash talk about detail ;D, and there you have it Bob it can be done  ;), cheers Mick.
Honda CB750 KO 1970,   Honda VTX 1300 2006, Lancaster England.

Offline JohnG

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • 1976 CB750F - original owner
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2009, 06:17:58 pm »
Superb description !! Thank you!!I have never had one of these that couldn't be revived and his steps make me more confident of a successful job.

           John
1976 CB750F - original owner
1971 CB450
1979 CB750F
1982 CB900F
1983 CB1123F - Rick Stetson motor

Offline Jonesy

  • Shop Rat
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,648
  • "Damn! These HM300 Pipes Are Expensive!!!"
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2009, 07:23:08 pm »
I vote this one for the FAQ's...
"Every time I start thinking the world is all bad, then I start seeing people out there having a good time on motorcycles; it makes me take another look." -Steve McQueen

Offline mcpuffett

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,354
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2009, 01:15:34 am »
Yep me to  ;)
Honda CB750 KO 1970,   Honda VTX 1300 2006, Lancaster England.

Offline AshimotoK0

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 592
  • CB400/4, 69 CB750K0, '69 CB250SS, CB350K1 CB500K0
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2009, 01:17:24 am »
No Problem - information is for sharing isn't it? It always amazes me how good this forum is. For example I would have scrapped a perfectly serviceable cam and carriers if I had gone by the Honda 'book' a few weeks ago. But with Hondaman's advice on cams and carriers it was saved from the scrap bin!! Not to mention the thankless task of finding replacements, particularly in the UK.

Once I have put my starter solenoid switch back together I will measure the pull-in and drop-out voltages and the voltage drop across the contacts when carrying the starter current and put these on the forum. These are the vital figures to know that your assembly is good (in addition to the coil resistance and leakage to ground of course). Another tip is to make sure that you don't remove too much copper and increase the contact gap too much. If you do, then you need to make up some little washers or spacers and put these under the contact studs before fitting to the contact housing. These can be either in metal or plastic but you would really need to use something that withstands high temperature like thin epoxy glass material from an old printed circuit board. This maintains the correct contact gap. This gap is designed to suit the armature travel and maintain the correct contact spring pressures. If there is any interest I can take photo's too to explain things better.

If anyone is interested I am doing the same kind of rebuild on the voltage regulator and silicon rectifier pack. e.g I have a good way of fully checking each rectifier diode with simple equipment and did you know that you can de-solder a single diode from the rectifier pack backplate and replace it with one from a scrap rectifier or fit a new aftermarket single diode replacement. later on in the year I am checking out the starter motor and I can publish tips on this too if anyone is interested.

I have stripped the voltage regulator down to it's component parts so that I can re-plate the cover and backplate in yellow chromate passivated zinc plate - I know I must be mad!! but again it's the old K0 obsession creeping in again. Hmmm - just need to make a stencil or stamp to print the Hitachi details back on the can !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 01:20:00 am by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.”

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,643
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2009, 07:19:00 am »
Are the starter solenoids serviceable in any way? Besides cleaning contacts, etc.

I put up a post a while back about how to "go through" one, bolts & all...the only part you can't "replace" is the coil, but the only 2 failures those suffer are either shorted insulation (enamel) on the wire, or bad soldered connections on the ends of the coil. The former takes some patience and a spool of new wire to wind one, but can be done. The latter just needs some cleaning and resoldering. (Done both! Even rewound an alternator this way, too.  ;) )

About the only thing that has stopped me in the past has been pieces that are broken out of the cover, since it is plastic.  :(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,724
  • Ex Honda Service Manager, Cert. Honda Tech - Racer
    • BentON Racing
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2009, 07:55:33 am »
Wow,what an awesome explanation,we are all graduates of the school of solenoids,great read ,but we need more details ;D ;D ;D,Bill
BentON Racing Website
OEM Parts | Service | Custom Builds
BentON Racing Facebook
Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
______________________________________
See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE

Offline AshimotoK0

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 592
  • CB400/4, 69 CB750K0, '69 CB250SS, CB350K1 CB500K0
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2009, 11:55:20 am »
Not trying to steal your thunder Hondaman - I was unaware you had posted on this- sorry! You need to publish your book!!!!

More detail would be how to de-peen the top magnet frame disc from the can. Then the number of turns of enamelled magnet wire on the coil giving the gauge of the wire (i.e wire diameter), to enable rewinding. I don't reckon that you get many coil burnouts though, as the battery would die after a short time trying to turn the starter motor, so the solenoid coil would not really be operated for long enough to overheat in normal use. Different situation under a wiring fault condition though, with the motor defective or not wired up.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 11:57:19 am by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.”

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,643
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2009, 01:10:30 pm »
Not trying to steal your thunder Hondaman - I was unaware you had posted on this- sorry! You need to publish your book!!!!

More detail would be how to de-peen the top magnet frame disc from the can. Then the number of turns of enamelled magnet wire on the coil giving the gauge of the wire (i.e wire diameter), to enable rewinding. I don't reckon that you get many coil burnouts though, as the battery would die after a short time trying to turn the starter motor, so the solenoid coil would not really be operated for long enough to overheat in normal use. Different situation under a wiring fault condition though, with the motor defective or not wired up.

That's OK, my thunder isn't very loud, anyway...  ;D

I have only seen a couple where the enamel was broken down and shorted the turns, and you are right about the ohms. These units were about 2 ohms, so they barely moved the little plunger, and the low pressure made the bar arc and weld itself to the contacts: the poor owner hit the starter button and the starter wouldn't stop then, even when he turned off the key, until the battery ran out. Boy, did he look perplexed when we were untrailering his 750!  :o
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,724
  • Ex Honda Service Manager, Cert. Honda Tech - Racer
    • BentON Racing
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2009, 02:22:07 pm »
Honda man ,Honda man
Publish your book
As soon as you can
Then we'd all have the plan
And then we could say
All our bikes ran and ran
You the Man!!!! ;D ;D ;D
BentON Racing Website
OEM Parts | Service | Custom Builds
BentON Racing Facebook
Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
______________________________________
See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2009, 02:06:22 pm »
Wow! Just now getting back to this one what with the painting project and Internet problems. I will have to digest all this and give it a try after we get back from vacation. Thanks all for the input.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2009, 03:09:49 pm »
Well, I digested all this detailed information and decided to buy a new one.  ::) After all, the old girl is 40 this year and I figured she deserved it. Just swapped out the old and she cranks strong every time now. I figured I would do a postmortem on the old one and clean it up if possible. You never know, it that works, I'll have a spare to use 40 years from now.  ;)

I removed the two screws holding the top cap, but the wires hinder its actual removal. They are crimped under a brace that looks like I should be able to pry apart to free the wires, but there is no gap or space and I can't see how to do this without badly chafing the wires and insulation. Is there a trick to this?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,643
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Starter Solenoid
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2009, 07:46:55 am »
Well, I digested all this detailed information and decided to buy a new one.  ::) After all, the old girl is 40 this year and I figured she deserved it. Just swapped out the old and she cranks strong every time now. I figured I would do a postmortem on the old one and clean it up if possible. You never know, it that works, I'll have a spare to use 40 years from now.  ;)

I removed the two screws holding the top cap, but the wires hinder its actual removal. They are crimped under a brace that looks like I should be able to pry apart to free the wires, but there is no gap or space and I can't see how to do this without badly chafing the wires and insulation. Is there a trick to this?

Bob:
send me an e-mail where I can send you back my "tutorial" on that rebuild.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com