Author Topic: audiophile  (Read 14474 times)

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Rocking-M

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audiophile
« on: August 22, 2009, 01:27:04 PM »
ok, I know there are some audiophiles on here.

I have an old Sanyo DCA 311 amp. Only 30 watts. Bought it new in 78.
I'd like to find an old Sanyo DCA 611 or larger with the same front. IE I really
like the watt meters, those little needles jumping with the beat.
I'm having a time finding any sites that list the specs on older
stereo amps so if anyone has a good source let me know, or and old Sanyo amp
to sell.  ;D

Offline 333

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2009, 01:43:51 PM »
I dig jumping needles as well.  I doubt if they still carry them, but I got a stereo watt meter box from(ugh) Radio Shack years ago.  I wish you luck.
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Rocking-M

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2009, 03:10:47 PM »
hey 333, I was also told that the output wattage from the 70's equals more
the way they rate them today. Said, "30 watts then equals 60 to 100 watts today.  ;D
My old 30 watt Sanyo is still cooking, had to resurrect it after the new Sony
amp/receiver bit the dust (only 7 years old). They don't build nothing like they
use to.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2009, 03:45:51 PM »
You could go with an older solid-state McIntosh, they built Integrated and separates that would probably sound better than your Sanyo unit. You have to be careful with any kind of electronics of that vintage due to blown or leaky caps and bad transformers, or bad diodes, resistors.

If you could afford the old McIntosh tube amps like the 275 that would be better in my opinion, but that's a lotta dough.
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Offline 754

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2009, 07:08:38 PM »
The needles on my Sansui amps are very sensitive and move very quickly. Cool to watch..

 The old ones are rated in RMS, which means it can run at that all day long (as far as I know) But the peak wattage can be up to 3 times as high. Mine are rated at 170 per side , but  are supposed to be able to hit as high as 500 watt range at peak power.

 New stuff is rated at max x speakers I believe..
 ie, 150 watts x 5 speakers is 750 watts
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Offline 333

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2009, 07:27:12 PM »
That RS box lives in my van, monitoring my subs.  I have an Akai open reel tape deck to relieve my needle fix. (Anywhere else, that would have a much different meaning).
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Rocking-M

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2009, 08:17:53 PM »
That RS box lives in my van, monitoring my subs.  I have an Akai open reel tape deck to relieve my needle fix. (Anywhere else, that would have a much different meaning).

ha! keep it coming fellows, I'm learning.  ;D

Offline tramp

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 05:03:46 AM »
built a couple of heath kit kits years ago and they still work
love my stereo
hard to find a amplifier that does just 2 channels
still love old kenwoods
had a 100 watt integrated amp that kicked as$#@^
1974 750k

Offline mlinder

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2009, 07:38:16 AM »
Do you really need more power?
A good sounding amp that doesn't distort at 30w rms is actually quite loud...
That being said, there are some really nice old Marantz amps out there that aren't very expensive.
I second the mackintosh, also.
But damn, they can be ESPENSIVE, Lucy.

Also, remember, 60 watts is not twice as loud as 30 watts. You'd need a 600 watt amp for it to be percieved as twice as loud...
A 60 watt amp is only 3db louder than a 30 watt amp.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 07:41:06 AM by mlinder »
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Offline azuredesign

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2009, 07:55:27 AM »
I'm too deaf now to be classified as a true audiophile, although I still enjoy listening to what I can hear. One thing to remember about amplifier output wattage is that it's dependent on speaker impedance. Today's speakers are more efficient, and 4 ohm speakers are the norm, I believe, whereas 30-40 years ago 8 and 16 ohm speakers were the norm. An amp operating at 30 watts rms into 8 ohms, should be able to run at approximately 60 watts into 4 ohms.
Something to think about, even if you're deaf like me.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2009, 08:02:18 AM »
But a good deal of that early solid state stuff in the 70's is kinda shaky at 4 ohms.
A lot of cheaper designs probably couldn't handle that low of impedence.
You would blow your output transformers.

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Offline 754

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 08:30:29 AM »
mlinder its like bikes...

 20 or 30 hp will get you around just fine (heck, even my 3hp moped got me around), but some want 100 hp!

...and for some others 150hp, is still is not enough.. :o

  .. I guess I will just have to make do with 160 watts RMS for now..... ;).. have not had it past 1/2 voume yet ;)
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2009, 08:35:13 AM »
Yeah, I have a set of Bryston 7B monoblock amps that pump 800 watts per channel to my Martin Logan Quest Z's.

They rock to say the least.  8) 8)
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline BobbyR

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2009, 09:12:54 AM »
Robert, I worked as a teen in a high end audio store. Later in the 90"s I was dealing Vintage gear on ebay since I knew the stuff and actually paid off the Mortgage. I checked all my ususal sources and came up with nothing. I did find this http://74.125.91.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Sanyo_DCA-311&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Sanyo%2BDCA%2B311%2522%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D10&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhjpMfKRUSkQUfMuB4Xy9SPeLjrpLw 

You mayl have to have Google translate it unless you read German. looks like a good unit, it is not popular among the snobbish "philes". I would not have bought it for resale.

If you are in the market for a new Vintage, the best bang for the buck is Yamaha Natura sound. They used real large Transformers to bang thrught the Bass. Today's units have a lot of power and crappy sound, they use a lot of electronic effects to enhance them.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2009, 09:17:51 AM »
I'm too deaf now to be classified as a true audiophile, although I still enjoy listening to what I can hear. One thing to remember about amplifier output wattage is that it's dependent on speaker impedance. Today's speakers are more efficient, and 4 ohm speakers are the norm, I believe, whereas 30-40 years ago 8 and 16 ohm speakers were the norm. An amp operating at 30 watts rms into 8 ohms, should be able to run at approximately 60 watts into 4 ohms.
Something to think about, even if you're deaf like me.


I too have some loss in certain frequencies. I use good headphones and I use an equalizer to boost those freqs I am low on and lower those I can hear properly. It would sound to bright for someone with normal hearing, to me it soundd fine. I can hear the strings and flutes subilties.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2009, 09:25:19 AM »
mlinder its like bikes...

 20 or 30 hp will get you around just fine (heck, even my 3hp moped got me around), but some want 100 hp!

...and for some others 150hp, is still is not enough.. :o

  .. I guess I will just have to make do with 160 watts RMS for now..... ;).. have not had it past 1/2 voume yet ;)

Yeah, but there's a huge difference between 75hp and 150hp. There's an almost indecernible difference between 75 watts and 150 watts.
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Offline 754

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2009, 11:36:03 AM »
At 75 watts you can still hear people talk, try it at 150..
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2009, 11:36:35 AM »
The old ones are rated in RMS, which means it can run at that all day long (as far as I know) But the peak wattage can be up to 3 times as high. Mine are rated at 170 per side , but  are supposed to be able to hit as high as 500 watt range at peak power.

Ah yes, the specs game.  754 has this part right.  The older stuff was often rated at RMS (Root Mean Square), which is sort of like average power rather than peak power.

However, an audiophile won't be satisfied with only those specs.  THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) is also required, as well as the spec'd frequency range.

Amplifiers are supposed to reproduce an input waveform at a larger voltage excursion at it's output.  If you put in a sine wave and the amp magnifies it 100 times, does it still look like a sine wave, or a pointy spike?  A pointy spike waveform sounds different than a sine wave, even if they are both the same frequency.  An audio purist wants the sound being fed to the amp, ONLY amplified and not colored by it's internal components.

The real idea behind high power amps (at least for home use) is NOT to run them at high power where distortion can occur or where noise from internal components can be amplified and added to the output signal.  But rather, to run them in an operational mode where even at loud auditory levels, the amp is barely working hard, and thus adds little to no distortion or circuit component noise, even when the input signal has sudden higher input peaks.

An aside...
I have to laugh at most of the cars with those boom box high power sounds systems, where the bass notes audibly rattle body panels at quite a high volume rate.  You just know the real purpose of their sound system is certainly not to sound good. (Not that their choice of program material would, in any case.)






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Offline mlinder

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2009, 11:54:28 AM »
Yep, I'm with you on that, TT.

I bought a guitar amp that is much louder than I would ever need in the kind of places I play (too loud even for Crystal Ballroom, in terms of on stage mixing levels), and it has a knob that allows you to reduce final amp output while keeping gain and such at the same level. I'm betting I'm not at more than 30 watts max most places I've played, but the headroom ensures no spikey sine waves and dis-coloration due to amp clipping.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2009, 03:36:36 PM »
Be aware that many guitar amps are quite different than audiophile Amps.  There is far more nuance to observe that just the power rating.  Lots of guitar amps intentionally color the sound of the guitar input signal somewhere in the multiple stages between input to output.

Part of the fender Black face mystique and desire was for this precise reason.  Each stage of amplification *can* change the tonal qualities of the guitar's output signal.  The Fender amps did just that.  And to the ear, in a very good way.  Another quirk was that the tonal quality would vary with the volume levels as an additional "bonus".  As there was no Master volume on these amps.  Many discovered that to obtain the desired tonal quality, you had to have a different amp depending on the size of the venue, so that you could run the amp at the volume level needed by the venue and still get the tonal dynamic influences from the amp to get the "sound" you wanted from the guitar.

When CBS took over Fender, they installed some engineers that did not understand that, and proceeded to change the amp toward pure amplification (the audiophile perspective), rather than adding tonal qualities of its own.  Most guitarists hated that at the time, as pre-effects between guitar and amp were only beginning to become normal additions.  They couldn't get that harmonic rich and shaded tone out o the new amps, just the pure guitar output signal, which took some of the"life" out of the performance.  It's a difficult thing to describe to those without the experience.  The tonal nuances in a live performance from the amplifier becomes part of the instrument dynamics and interact with the artist as much as the instrument string feel and action.  These things help inspire more "spiritual" performance by the musician.  For a reasonable comparison, it is similar to singing a closet full of clothes to vs. a stairwell with its added reverberations.  When it sounds better to the artist, they are more inspired to produce even better sounds than they thought possible.

Anyway many guitar amps are horrible audiophile amplifiers.  The guitar frequency range is very small using only frequencies between 80Hz and 10,000.  Other instruments can provide frequencies outside that range, and an audiophile amp must reproduce frequencies in the 20-20,000Hz range.  While guitar amps can usually reproduce frequencies outside 80-10,000hz range, they may not reproduce a 20Hz signal and he same gain as an 80Hz signal.  Same is true at the upper end of the human hearing range.  @15K hz that piccolo, accordian, synthesizer, etc will have an imbalanced ignal strength reproduction across its sound output.  Worse, yet that guitar amp may have quite a bit of added distortion to signals outside of its planned useful range.  That piccolo may well sound like it was route through a Fuzz box @13K Hz.  Audiophiles can't accept that.  And a stage comparison would be to compare a PA system AMP to a guitar amp.

Audiophiles don't just focus on the main amp, which is certainly important.  But the speakers are transducers that converts the electrical signal into sound waves.  These too have reproduction idiosyncrasies, where some frequencies are reproduced at different conversion rates/efficiencies than others.  They may also add distortion and their own coloration to their input signal, which is also the bane of an audiophile.
Do we need to mention room acoustic properties, where some rooms absorb a frequency and others will resonate that same frequency?  Sensitive ears will certainly notice that!






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Offline mlinder

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2009, 04:03:33 PM »
That's true, TT, but the problem with many guitar amps is that as you turn them up, the sound changes, in regards to preamp drive and tonality change as it becomes harder for the amp to push the speakers.
The amp I have has a set of resistors in a preamp/overdrive/eq-effect/postamp/(variable)virtual-speaker/ setup, where they pretend they are various types of speaker and cabinet combinations, before they ever get to a very clean, colorless amp and speaker setup that has it's own volume knob. That way, sound doesn't change no matter what volume you are playing at.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2009, 05:14:38 PM »
One of the other problems the modern guitar amps have that the older Fender, Kustom and Sunn amps did not have is that they were too clean. The old time amps were fairly crude and had all types of internally generated low level feedback and other odd sounds. The old time Rock Guitarists unconsciously used these internal noises to create their sound. When they played with the newer "clean amps" they could not get their sound right. That is why you will find some of your best guitarist using modest old Fender with a mike in front of it pumping the sound through a larger PA Amp.

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But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Markcb750

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2009, 05:27:06 PM »
Love the old stuff, this is a 1940 Zenith I am working on.  About 3 watts at the output, but I can pick up Germany, Venezuela France and lots of AM stations.

I found a retired Western Electric EE who has done a marvelous job restoring the electronics including replacing all the capacitors, some poor wires and a bad tube socket.  Anyone in NC looking for someone to repair this old stuff, send me a note.

We will remount the electronics this week.


 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 05:31:34 PM by Markcb750 »

Offline mlinder

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2009, 05:34:47 PM »
That thing is beautiful.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 06:38:35 PM by mlinder »
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Rocking-M

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Re: audiophile
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2009, 05:44:33 PM »
man, I'm in over my head here.  ;D

OK, my old 30 watt Amp sounds quite good with the 4 ohm speakers I'm using now.
I have four wired in. Do you think this is going to hurt my amp since it was designed for
8 ohm speakers?