Author Topic: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!  (Read 14550 times)

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Offline manjisann

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AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« on: August 24, 2009, 07:47:42 PM »
Sorry need to vent. I've been trying to figure out WTF is causing the fisheyes I keep getting! My air is filtered as well as I will get it, and I've sprayed dozens of parts without issue, but now that I'm on my tank and fenders, boom, fisheyes! Anyhow, long rant short, TACK CLOTHS CAN CAUSE FISHEYES!!!!!!!!!!!

Guess I'll be wet sanding tomorrow  >:(

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Offline rivetslag

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 07:58:10 PM »
Always open a new one before you tack off your project. Don't use used tack rags.
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Offline manjisann

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 08:01:37 PM »
Well I just found out you shouldn't tack between the base and clear coat. I think ultimately this is where my problem lies. It's always so much fun to learn new things  ::)

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Offline rivetslag

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2009, 08:13:15 PM »
You might also want to acquire some Prep-Sol or R-M 900 to do a pre-wipe with, if you haven't already.
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Offline manjisann

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2009, 08:26:30 PM »
Quote
You might also want to acquire some Prep-Sol or R-M 900 to do a pre-wipe with, if you haven't already.

I'm going to go to the paint shop tomorrow to pick up some other stuff and I'll see if they have either of these and see what they recommend.

It started when I wetsanded my tank, I wiped it off with clean water and then used wax and grease remover. I put it in the booth and tacked it down. I think the tack is what did it.

What is the best way to ensure the tank is clean after wetsanding it? I'm worried about minerals in the water remaining on it.

Brandon
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Offline rivetslag

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 08:44:46 PM »
You're probably already doing everything you should be to avoid contaminants. I wouldn't worry about minerals in the water, just do a liquid wipe down with a mild solvent. Use fresh paper towels, new tack rag. If you really want to get paranoid, get a new roll of paper towels, too. I once tracked down a source of grease in my paint to the very edges of a paper towel roll, where it had been grabbed by someone with greasy hands. The fingerprints on the edges of the roll tainted the whole roll.

I will say that even when I'm not painting or even remotely thinking about working on a paint job, I subconsciously think "AAGAAHHG FISHEYES" whenever I touch any silicone. Same can be said for any kind of lubricant. Do you "scrub down" before you enter your painting area?

Unless we're talking silicone, I would normally consider a freshly wet sanded surface to be pretty damn close to "sterile", if you've kept discipline in maintaining a clean paint booth.

P.S. now that I think about it, the fact that I'm even mentioning paper towels might discredit me, heh. They do leave fibers. I tend to make a quick "blow off" pass with the spray gun though, to shoot those away.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 08:47:04 PM by rivetslag »
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 08:54:37 PM »
Silicone :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( the baine of all painters ;D ;D ;D ;D

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Offline manjisann

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 09:41:09 PM »
I'll admit I'm not super duper paranoid when it comes to my painting hygene (yes, I shower daily!) I do wear nitrile gloves and if I think there is a chance they've come in contact with grease or any other contaminant I will change them. As for my paint booth, I'm fairly good about keeping it clean. The main contaminant it has is dried overspray. I don't wear a paint suit or anything, though I did buy one. I just hate the idea of dressing up for a 5 min spray session, undressing, cleaning the equip and then doing it all again in 30 mins. Although I have to admit, if that is what it takes I'm gonna start doing it as these #$%^ing fish eyes are a waste of time and paint.

I've sprayed a lot of parts, and up till now hadn't been having any problems with fish eyes or any contaminants. That being said, I also hadn't been worrying about the parts that much and so I didn't bother to tack them off before I cleared. As I was trying to figure out why I hadn't been having any issues till now that realization popped in my head. This is what is leading me to believe it may be tied to my fresh tack cloth, that and a google search of tack cloths and clear coating showed it as a likely culprit.

Tomorrow I'll wet sand the tank and the front fender, let them off gas in the paint booth as it's the only really controlled environment I have, and then clear them again without tacking them and see what happens.

Learning curves, aren't they great!

Brandon
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Offline kghost

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2009, 10:32:58 PM »
I don't use the commercial "tack" cloths.

Like someone said.....a quick solvent wipe and spray away.
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Offline manjisann

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2009, 10:42:22 PM »
What is the safest solvent to use when painting urethane? Is wax/grease remover ok?

Brandon
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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2009, 11:02:31 PM »
I always used the automotive paint prep spray, but I'll be darned if I know who made it. :p sorry...
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Offline lrutt

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2009, 05:12:30 AM »
but what to use for a cloth or rag when whiping said solvent on parts?? paper towels are rather 'dirty' and leave fibers. I know I had a hell of a time when painting my Guzzi. Got fisheyes in everything it seemed like. I finaly found I needed to just lay down a light coat the first 2 passes to get initial coverage then I was ok.

I hope to have better luck when painting my MG TD this winter.
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Offline kghost

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2009, 08:16:08 AM »
Hey I just wanted to add....If you don't let the paint set up between coats...

You'll get solvent pop from the layer underneath the new coat.

Looks alot like fisheye...
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Offline fishhead

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2009, 08:30:22 AM »
I've seen people put too much pressure on the tack rags and the sticky comes off the rags and causes fish eyes. A light touch is all that is needed with the tach rags.
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Offline The_Crippler

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2009, 08:33:12 AM »
I came in this thread hoping for pirates...   :-\


Seriously, though - I feel your paint.  Home paint jobs are a PITA and I give you credit for having far more patience than I normally do.

Offline manjisann

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2009, 09:43:33 AM »
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I came in this thread hoping for pirates...   

Don't ever let it be said I would allow dissappointment  ;)

Quote
Hey I just wanted to add....If you don't let the paint set up between coats...

You'll get solvent pop from the layer underneath the new coat.

Looks alot like fisheye...

That is a great point! My understanding is fisheyes happen immediately, before the paint even flashes, whereas solvent pop happens over a longer period. I'm pretty sure I have fisheyes, as I've allowed ample time for proper flash off.


Quote
but what to use for a cloth or rag when whiping said solvent on parts?? paper towels are rather 'dirty' and leave fibers. I know I had a hell of a time when painting my Guzzi. Got fisheyes in everything it seemed like. I finaly found I needed to just lay down a light coat the first 2 passes to get initial coverage then I was ok.

I hope to have better luck when painting my MG TD this winter.

I've found that if I spray a light coat and let it set till it gets sticky then flood my clear on, I have fewer problems with runs and sags. I haven't found it as effective against fish eyes unfortunately.

I've got a thread in the tech forum that I'm writing up on how to spray urethane. I obviously don't know it all, but I'm trying to compile a thread that shows the basics and also any mistakes I made and how to avoid or fix them. I know when I was first looking into this I had a hard time finding a lot of info. Anyhow, feel free to check it out and comment if you have something you want to share.


Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

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Offline kghost

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2009, 01:56:56 PM »
Yeah if you see it immediately its usually contamination ...

You're prolly on the right track vis a vis the tack cloth = fisheyes expecially as someone said if you press hard.

Out of curiousity....how long are you allowing between coats?

You mentioned the air was filtered......

Could you tell us more about your compressor/Filter set up?

I had problems until I went to an oilless compressor.

I have a line set that is specifically for the oil free compressor.

That and water control....Specifically a dryer unit keeps any contaminates under control.

You can build a hell of a dryer / separator out of a 4" diameter by 6' length PVC pipe.....filled with sand or Desiccant material
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Offline manjisann

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2009, 02:10:04 PM »
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=57137.0

I have pics of the setup in here. One of the compressors I think is oilless, the other one I know has oil in it as it has a fill hole. That being said, I've sprayed a lot of frame parts up to now with no issue. The only two changes I'd made was wet sanding  and tacking off with the tack cloth.

The biggest thing is don't locate the water separator right after the compressor, allow a min of 25 of hose, 50 would be better. The reason is, while the air is still hot from being compressed the water won't fall out. As it cools it will vaporize and start to fall out of the air and 25-50 ft is about right to do this. I also have a desicant snake on the line I am using to paint with, and right before the regulator I have a little desiccant filter that also acts as a moisture indicator by changing colors. It's nothing super fantastic, but all in all it was less than $100 and I think works very well for the home user. If I planned on painting more than a couple bikes a year, I'd look into one of those nice sata multi stage ones, but they are usually several bills, and I'm just not that rich.

Quote
You're prolly on the right track vis a vis the tack cloth = fisheyes expecially as someone said if you press hard.

Unless my hand is fatter than I think it is, I was actually pressing really light. I read somewhere that you are supposed to let them dry out just a bit first. At this point I'm not going to tack after the primer coat just to be safe. It could be that it's 90F in my garage and so the tacky stuff wipes off easier.

I also bought some paper towels from the paint shop that are supposed to be as close to lintless as you can get. They were damn expensive so I'll be very careful how I use them, but at this point I'm willing to spend a bit of money to avoid fisheyes and lint boogers.

Quote
Out of curiousity....how long are you allowing between coats?

Tech sheets say 30 mins for proper flash off between coats. If I am spraying the same color, I'll spray the first coat, wait about 5 or 10 mins and spray another. I haven't had any solvent popping issues so far doing it this way. If it's a different color like candy over metallic, I wait at least the full 30 minutes. From what I understand you just have to wait until the surface is that even dull sheen you see after it off gasses.

I'm not totally done with my write up on Urethane paints, but have a fair amount done already. Feel free to check it out and comment, I certainly don't claim to know everything. I just wanted to contribute what little I had learned to this forum in an effort to help someone else who is just starting out. I'd love to see it turn into a really good thread with lots of good input.

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

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Offline kghost

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2009, 02:23:11 PM »
twas a long read  :D

But I did read it all and look at all the pictures....

It all looked good to me. No different better or worse then I'm using.....I certainly wouldn't change that set up

I'm doing a couple things different for what its worth.....

I'm allowing at least 8 hrs between coats....I know it says 30 minutes but I've found that to often not be enough.

I'm also spraying at a lower tempurature and in humidity control.

Its too damn hot and humid where I live so I'm Airconditioning....

About 20% or less humidity and 75 degrees tops....



BTW I think your write up so far has been great

A consolidation of the varied and vast experiences with painting the Urethanes should be put in the FAQ



Sounds to me like maybe ditching the tack cloth might be the way to go...

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Offline ColinMc

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2009, 02:57:01 PM »
Cheap tack cloths are just that...cheap tack cloths. Invest in some good ones if you havn't already. I tack before primer, after primer, after base...and after mid coat if i'm doing a fancy shmancy color. Light touch, and high quality tack cloths, otherwise you will leave behind a residue that will cause fisheyes.

Shop towels in a box, white or blue work fantastic. I swear by them. Cheap, disposable and no crud left behind.

Make sure if you use surface cleaner you DON'T LET IT DRY ON THE SURFACE. One cloth to wipe it on, another to wipe the surface clean. In one direction...don't smear it all over.

Also, once you've used the surface cleaner before primer, after that there is no need for it...all you're doing if you use it after that point is risking some soaking into the primer and ruining the rest of your work.

Waiting TOO long between coats can be a bad thing too. Make sure you are reading your tech sheets...are you supposed to scuff the primer before topcoating? is there a window on the primer for recoating?
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Offline ColinMc

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2009, 02:59:03 PM »
Another thing...using any tire shine or wd-40 anywhere near where you paint...even the day before? That stuff=death to any paintjob.
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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2009, 08:34:08 AM »
Speaking as an expert in the design, manufacture and application of tack cloths, I want to caution that tack cloths will vary greatly between brands & types.  Professional/Commercial tack cloths should do the intended job just fine, if used properly, and give you a result that you can't obtain otherwise.  Major automotive manufacturers still rely on tack cloth in many paint process steps.  But its difficult to find good tack cloths in retail.

A good tack cloth is made without volatile materials (VOC solvents) and should not need to be "dried out" in advance of use.  It should remain consistently tacky for an indefinite period out of its packaging (otherwise it probably contains undesirable materials).  Be advised that there are many different designs of tack cloth for different markets, price points, applications, finish qualities, etc.  For example, auto OEM's typically use a "lint free" design made from synthetic filament cloth (no fibers) with sealed end cuts.

You didn't mention the details, but it would be interested to know the brand & grade/number of tack cloth that you were using, and where you bought it.  This might spur some additional helpful commentary.

Offline manjisann

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2009, 09:25:57 AM »
Alrighty here's the info. I want to point out that since I am not a pro, and have no formal training on this, it's entirely possible that the cloths are not to blame, but me. This last time around I was careful to lightly tack off. Also it was about 80-90F if that makes any difference.

Here is where I bought them, and what I bought.

http://www.tcpglobal.com/autobodydepot/itemdetail.aspx?itemno=GER+020007W-BX

It says they are wax and silicon free, and lint free.

I'm interested if you have heard of these? Also, what should a good tack cloth cost, and who would you recommend?

Brandon

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Offline rivetslag

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2009, 01:09:05 PM »
I've always used these: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4045&familyName=Tack+Cloth

I see some Crystal tack cloths on that same distributor you linked, too.
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Offline fishhead

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Re: AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG Tack cloths can cause fish eyes!
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2009, 01:14:09 PM »
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=57137.0


Quote
You're prolly on the right track vis a vis the tack cloth = fisheyes expecially as someone said if you press hard.

Unless my hand is fatter than I think it is, I was actually pressing really light.
(JMO)You shouldnt be pressing at all. A gentle touch is all that is needed.

 The tack cloth is the final cleaning of the surface to be painted and should have very little dust.etc on it. The other cleaning processes (blowing it off with air, wax/grease remover,etc) should get 99 % of the unwanted stuff off. The tach rag should be gently "wiped" over the surface to get any remaining dust particles off.

   19 yrs as an "automotive refinishing technition" (AKA= painter :P) and the only time I have had tack rags cause a problem was when the "automotive refinishing technition assistant" (AKA= prep dweeb :D) wiped the car down with too much pressure with the tack rag. Fisheyes out the wazoo. Never had anyone wipe down anything for me again.

  I always open up the tack rag completely (unfold it)  and then lightly bunch it up to give a lighter touch on the surface. Using the tack rags the way they come out of the package (Flat and squished) makes it harder to use a light touch when wiping down a surface.
 
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