Topic: ugh... giving up on this season, got do a full teardown

[babyfood1217]

goddamn it.  so, in and amongst all the few little things I've been doing with my bike, just hoping I could have it ready for a ride or two this season, I've had this feeling.  The feeling was like the one you get when you climb to the top of a bookshelf to get that thing way up there, and on your way down, it starts creaking, then you hurry and it creaks louder, and only when you hop off from 5 feet up does the creaking stop... and the bookshelf literally implodes.  Well, that's me and my bike right now.  I need it would need a a top rebuild but was hoping it could wait until snow flies.  Well, in the midst of replacing some wiring connectors throughout the bike, I got to where I needed to pull the stator cover and gearshift/tranny cover off to check those connectors.  Well, no sooner did I get the screws out and break the seal of time on those bits to see not just some oil ooze out, but our wonderful friend, water.  @#$%^.  I threw in the towel after a few days of deliberating (I know, should have happened sooner) whether or not it could wait.  I decided it can't. 

I can't start this rebuild right now, but I can slowly get the bits together that I need...

-Full gasket set (in an online shopping basket, waiting to get paid for)
-RTV sealant (local source)
-cam chain tensioner replacement bits (?)
-possibly stainless steel hardware (various sources online)

So any tips from anyone for this fun adventure?  I've been perusing the dozens and dozens of posts about people who have done a full up, and I'm not worried about the halves leaking as long as I take my time and pay attention, but are there any really important things to remember?

-Chris with a sad face


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[kghost]

Yeah....

Tip #1.

RTV is not your friend.

Its not the thing to use on an engine.

[ekpent]

Sorry Chris about the bookshelf but what bike have you got,is it a 750?? You mention water,did you do an oil change as soon as you got it?We alway find water in old forks Just curious as to how it may have entered your engine,left outside ,power spray,sorry been working hard today maybe missed a previous post???Hope you get it sorted out---------Eric

[babyfood1217]

RTV is not your friend... Its not the thing to use on an engine.

yeah, even in the short time since posting this I realized that.  Found a couple threads where some other sealants were used or reccomended (honda makes one, forgetting the name...)

Sorry Chris about the bookshelf but what bike have you got,is it a 750?? Just curious as to how it may have entered your engine...

Since I started its' most recent transformation (began late fall/early winter of '07), it's spent half of the past two years inside and half outside.  I'm guessing its' the "outside" that did it.  My fault.  No question there.  


Yup, '76 750k

[ekpent]

Let the experts chime in.may not be a total loss,how long has the H2O been in there,where did it enter and has the engine been run??

[babyfood1217]

Dunno and dunno.  See, nothing is seized and everything is running freely, I just can't justify buttoning the thing up and running it when I know full well there may be a small ocean in there.  Gonna commit to getting the items I need to tear it down and build it back up correctly and cleanly.

To those who have do it, would getting some plastigage be a worthwhile effort?  never used the stuff, and don't know if it would be worth it. 

-C

[Johnny5]

Z1enterprises is your best place for those parts on your list.

[ekpent]

.  See, nothing is seized and everything is running freely, I just can't justify buttoning the thing up and running.     Have you actually been driving the bike?

[honda750k]

IMO plastigage is crap, since its just a ballpark estimate deal on measurements. micrometers and feeler gauges will do you far better.

[cleveland]

That's a bummer to hear Chris. Nothing worse with a project then feeling dispare.  

You really think you have to tear it apart though? Couldn't you just replace the oil & filter, run it for 100 miles or so, and then change the oil & filter again?      

[bryanj]

Plastigauge is the only way for mains and big ends---micrometers just aint accurate enough! In different hands you will get .05 of a mm variation and the tolerance is .01

[Skonnie Boy]

That's a bummer to hear Chris. Nothing worse with a project then feeling dispare.  

You really think you have to tear it apart though? Couldn't you just replace the oil & filter, run it for 100 miles or so, and then change the oil & filter again?      

+1.

If the water merely entered through the stator cover, it doesn't seem like a season killer.  

[Johnie]

That's a bummer to hear Chris. Nothing worse with a project then feeling dispare.  

You really think you have to tear it apart though? Couldn't you just replace the oil & filter, run it for 100 miles or so, and then change the oil & filter again?      

+1.

If the water merely entered through the stator cover, it doesn't seem like a season killer.  

I agree with cleveland and skonnie...if just a little water entered via the stator change the oil and filter and run it. Do this a few times and see where you are at. You may be opening up a can of worms you may wish you left alone. Just our opinions though. You have to do what you feel comfortable with here.

[Toxic]

i don't see the harm in doing the oil and filter change and running it.

Have you given some thought to collecting a couple of ounces of the used oil and sending it to Blackstone Labs for analysis?

They can tell you allot about your engine.   I think I paid $30 or $40.

Might give you some piece of mind.

Just a thought.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Run  it, if you find out you have to tear it down after that, then do so.

I definitely wouldn't run it in the rain though with that kind of a water problem.

[MCRider]

Plastigauge is the only way for mains and big ends---micrometers just aint accurate enough! In different hands you will get .05 of a mm variation and the tolerance is .01

That's what i think.  I read up on plastigage vs micrometers. Certainly no consensus. Studies show 20 machinists micing the same part get 20 different readings. How accurate is that?

Some big time builders say I'd never use PG, others say they never use Mics. Both have high levels of success.

Using mics takes lots of training, let alone the cost and maintenance of the tools. PG, for as often as most of us would use it, is plenty accurate, cheap, and easy to use.

The company line is that Plastigage should be a back up to micrometers. Sounds like CYA to me.

But they maintain it is very accurate and used widely in all aspects of industry, aeronautics, etc.

TETO, YMMV

[babyfood1217]

Plastigage:  I guess I always felt that alot of riders here used the stuff because it was accurate.  If I unpack my boxes and getting my calipers and mic' out, I know how to use that stuff to get a variety of measurements.

Run it and change the oil: Hmm... never thought of that.  I guess it does make a little sense.  I never thought too much about the entry point of the water into the engine, but it would make sense that it may just have been through the stator cover.  The cover was covered and sealed the entire time it was outside.  Here's a question though: I know water is more dense than oil, so any residual water would eventually make its' way to the bottom of the engine, but since I've never had to deal with moisture like this in a n engine before, what would be some potential problems with doing this? (I understand hydrolock - water incompressible (essentially))

My big thought about the complete tear-down is the water that was/is in there: I honestly don't know long it was there.  Haven't had this engine running since fall of 2007 (ran perfect when I parked it and disassembled for cosmetic/frame reasons) and I envision the interior components as being covered in rust and congealed oil/grease/water nastiness.  But that's where the comments about running it for a bit and then change oil/filter.  If things look ok, then great, but it they don't, well then the adventure really begins.  I'll poke my eyes, nose and fingers around her some more and see what I can find (the bike).

Besides, If I do pull it all apart, I may want to tinker.  I don't have money to tinker

-Chris

[MCRider]

And not that Clymer is the be all/end all of sources, but my Clymer manuals refer to using it (PlastiGauge) for these purposes, and that's a copyright of 1972.

PlastiGauge was developed in the 1950s primarily for the military so they could have a quick effective way of rebuilding their often close tolerance equipment using what are essentially lay person's as machinists. They needed results that were effective and easily reproduceable from tech to tech.

[fmctm1sw]

The feeling was like the one you get when you climb to the top of a bookshelf to get that thing way up there, and on your way down, it starts creaking, then you hurry and it creaks louder, and only when you hop off from 5 feet up does the creaking stop... and the bookshelf literally implodes. 

I hear ya dude.  I was painting my kids' room and fell off the stool onto a mirror.  Somewhat similar sound..

[Caminokid]

the 360 I have been putting back together had water in it. Nothing froze....moved freely. Changed the oil and filter 3 times...till I got good clean oil in there after running it a few times. All is good now.

[Frankencake]

I used to work on boats at a busy marina.  Occasionally we would get a "sinker".  That is a boat that was underwater.  You have 24 hours to save the engine from seizing.  What has to be done is drain the oil/water, fill it up with oil again and get it running as fast as you can.  Let it come up to operating temp and change oil again.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  This process saves the engine and no damage is done. 
In our case, I would be willing to bet that your stator is acting like a hiding place for moisture.  To be safe, you need to change your oil and then run you bike.  Get it good and hot and most of the water will go out your crankcase breather as vapor.  Water boils at a much lower temp than oil and these air cooled motors get hot enough to boil it off.  You stator does not and that's why I'm thinking that moisture went there as a safe place from the heat.  Objects at rest tend to stay at rest, ie. the water molecules finding the easiest place to stay at rest (cool) is the cool spot that is behind your stator cover.  Good luck------ss

[babyfood1217]

Man, I am seriously feeling alot better.  Reading some responses to this thread, and doing alot of looking on the board has calmed my nerves a TON!  Gonna power ahead with the bike as is, try the oil dump til clean trick, and hopefully feel alot better after riding it at least a little before the snow flies here.  I would still like to do at least a top rebuild during the winter months, but that's a little ways off.  I guess I didn't even think that moisture in the case doesn't necessarily mean in the cylinders.  I had all these thoughts of (among otherthings) hydrolocking the motor, but it is starting to make sense how the moisture would eventually vap' off through the breather, or drain out the bottom curing oil changes.

-C

[Skonnie Boy]

Should update and tell us how it went.  I'm curious to see how it turns out.  Best of luck, fingers crossed.

Say hey to Madtown.  I miss it so.