Author Topic: Side cover business model for CB750F side covers. And why I don't make them.  (Read 7643 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Much of the following is estimation, mostly because real numbers couldn't be found.  If you have better sources for data, I'd like to hear it.  Or, if you have any corrections to my estimations or processes, feel free to speak up.  (Particularly if it has significant impact for the conclusions!)

Research:
American Honda sold 400,000 units in a 10 year-run.   (http://www.classicbikes.com/750.html)

All CB750 @ 40,000/yr.   In 75-78 were the F models (only 3 years).

Let’s say half sold in those 3 years were F models. 20,000 x 3 = 60 thousand.
Further estimate 1/3 of those have survived these last 30 years so that leaves 20,000 CB750F models left in the US.
How many of these need side covers? 20% W.A.G?
 That's about 4000 total bikes that need side covers.
I'm going to be generous and say 1/3 of these owners will actually buy side covers if their price is met.  That's 1200 covers.

Anyway, it looks like a lifetime stock of 1000 side covers would cover sales needs for the foreseeable future.

How many of these people can you reach with a side cover offer?  Again very generous (IMHO  40%)  That's 480 possible sales.  And, easily less than half of that if "their" price isn't met for a business opportunity of 240 covers.

80-90% of people will buy when they are good and ready, ("Like maybe in a year or two when I get all the other stuff on the bike like I want it.")  People also wait for others to review quality and value before purchase.   So, there could be some deferred sales opportunity.

Anyway that's 24 covers initially sold fairly quickly...perhaps.   And two or three of those are "lost" to deadbeat "buyers", who either don't pay or insist on returning a cover (for hundreds of reasons) for credit, and these are now damaged or "used".

 How many covers do you want to store and carry in inventory?  And, for how long?  (I don't have a good model for these costs, but they are non-zero.)  Each cover boxed is about 16x10x4 inches, 640 cubic inches, or 0.37 cu feet each. Floor footprint is 16x10.  Can probably stack them 10 high without crush damage.  For a space need of 1.11 sq. foot per 10 units of storage space needed.   That’s' 1111 sq. feet of floor or shelf space and 370 cu feet volume space needed if 1000 covers are acquired for initial stock.

There are also packaging costs as well.  Poly bag, cushioning materials, carton, labels.  ~$5-6 each for low quantity?  Perhaps half this for 1000 quantity buys.

There are different kinds of tooling materials used to make injection-molded parts depending on expected tool life.  To make 1000 covers, you would need a steel tool.  But, it won't have to be heat treated or hardened.  Based on my experience, you could probably have this made for $25K-$50K for a simple 2 piece clam type mold. 
You will also need a machine that heats the plastic pellets to proper temp and pumps the molten plastic under pressure into the tool.  The machine also runs water through the tool to cool the mold and plastic part, opens the tool halves, ejects the part, and repositions the tool halves for the next injection cycle.  For this small a run, you probably wouldn't buy the machine or the facility to operate it in. (not sure of the cost but over $100K comes to mind.)  You would just contract with an existing injection molding outfit to make your parts.  The actual plastic pellet costs per piece are probably $0.50.  So, if you make enough parts, it's really cheap.  But, you have to make enough, long term, to pay for your development and tooling costs.  You also have to pay for material cost while you develop a recipe for the correct injection temp, mold temp, cool down time, and tool movement cycle time.  These initial parts are scrapped, due to voids, sags, and other defects in the molding process.  After the development work is done, then you pay for a production run of saleable parts.  Some initial parts are waste as the tool gets up to and stabilizes at operating temperature.

Assembly:
The original Honda cover was made with a multi piece articulated mold in order to get the posts formed onto the back of the cover.  Articulated multi piece molds for this process are way more expensive to tool up than the cheap two piece clam type one I estimated above about double.  But, they pop out a completed part per cycle.  The cheaper tool would have a feature cast into the molded cover to accept post inserts (which would also be molded in the clam).  These inserts would have to be glued in with a separate operation.  It is unlikely to be cost effective to build a machine for this.  So, manual labor must be provided to assemble the covers, or, simply provide instructions for the end user to glue the posts in place,

For 1000 boxed covers ready for shipment:
$25,000 - Clam tool.
  $5000 - part production costs (manufacturing facility and production time/operator, and plastic injection material.
  $3000 - Part packaging materials
  $1200 - Yearly storage of unsold covers.  The clam tool has to be stored somewhere, too, as does the plastic pellets.

$34200- invested in for 1000 covers means that each cover is costs $34.20 to produce.  If you are not selling each cover for at least $50 each, you're an idiot.  And, even at that, you work for free (or a loss) until you've sold 684 of the covers.  If you manage to sell them all you make $15800 for the year or about 46% ROI.

 But, I think this is really an optimistic view.  Tooling and production costs are likely to be much higher.   That'll eat into that $15K really fast.  And if you are even able to sell 500 of the covers, then you can probably sell ice cubes to Eskimos, too!  You should stick to pure sales as a livelihood.  And, leave all that unnecessary manufacturing and distribution issues to someone else.

I think that if you can't make and sell at least 1000 covers, tooling up for injection molding just doesn't make sense, even though the price/part can be quite low, ultimately.

For lower quantities and lower investment costs other methods can be used.
Plaster casting/mold, maybe a 50-piece part life before replacing the mold
Fiberglass molds- 100 or more part life?
Each finished cover will contain:
Resin $13.75/ qt. (Styrene monomer, Epoxy resins are double or triple that with hardener)
Catalyst $2.75/ 2 oz.
Fiberglass $7-9/yard ( Will Need a couple layers/  Carbon fiber is $45/yard)
I think there will be $20-$25 in materials in each cover not counting the mounting posts, which have to be engineered and somehow attached to the cover inside. (labor)
So, after the mold is cast, refined, polished and waxed 5-10 times, the cover can be laid up (about an hour) in the mold and allowed to cure 24 hrs.  Then, remove from mold cut and trim part edges, and attach posts.  When cured, the part can be bagged, boxed, labeled, and placed in inventory.  (Storage/ shipping costs?)
Oh, making the molds will take 1-5 days development and labor, depending on type and quality.  Suppose anybody would pay for this?
How much goes to the person who does lay up, assembles, inspects, packages and ships the cover?

Recently, I've been considering vacuforming also.  But, this has some engineering challenges with mount post attachment, I haven't been motivated to solve.  Especially when people are only willing to pay $15-$20 for a cover.






Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Jonesy

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Dang, TwoTired, you really thought this out! (Did you used to work in the injection molding business?)

I'm thinking about running this example though my "PolyCost" part cost estimator program at work on Monday and seeing how the outputs compare...
"Every time I start thinking the world is all bad, then I start seeing people out there having a good time on motorcycles; it makes me take another look." -Steve McQueen

Buffo

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TT, your model is quite good but also quite conservitive.

I was plant manager for a manufact. company and one of the things we did was injection molding. for a run of 1000 it is most liekly going to cost over $100.00 a piece.

i could write a book on injection moulding.

And one must keep in mind that what comes out of an injection mold is far from primer ready let alone primer. The edges are rough and need to be trimmed, the entire piece must be sanded, primered and painted....keep in mind that the paint on most bikes will be faded and discolored...so a painted version would be out of the question. Dont forget about paying someone to make jigs for drilling the mounting holes...I could go on...and on

It would be far cheeper to start to become a master fiberglaser and "repair" old ones...you could do it yourself...as needed...ready to paint




Offline TwoTired

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I didn't work in the injection molding business.  I worked as an engineer, and we made stand alone electronic gear with injection molded cases.  I was directly responsible for the electronic design inside the box.  But, as project lead, and a fair bit of mechanical aptitude, I worked with the mechanical engineer and the molding companies who were supplying us with the cover sets.  These were made with expensive multipiece articulated molds.   And, there were a hundred vent holes, a myriad of close tolerance, tooled features incorporated into the cover set to capture the internal shield, captivate all the internal components, and interlock with the bottom cover without any screws used for assembly.  Just put the parts in, snap the covers together and send it off to final test and packaging.

I rather expected my estimates were conservative and much lower than I encountered in my work projects.  However, the lack of detail features in a side cover and rather loose tolerances ought to make the dang mold much faster and easier to make, and therefore less costly to develop.  I was really ballparking the production run costs, though.  And, I don't really believe I'd ever live long enough to sell 1000 Cb750F left side covers.

Our final box covers were textured and molded in the final color.  There were no "after- molded" operations needed on the cover.  When it left the mold, it was a finished part ready for assembly and in final apearance.  However, we got pre-textured cover samples to verify dimensions and features.  There was no flash and the surface was ready to paint after only a solvent wipe.  We had some molded in clear which helped identify any fit issues.  But, some were painted in texture paint to simulate final apearance and for sale brochure pictures.  I took two of these smooth covers and painted them bright shiny gloss red for our lab and test use.  (Kept marketing dept. from borrowing them!)  Point is, they painted well and looked really good until they got scratched up from use and abuse from lab testing.

Anyway, I did give it some serious thought.  Just because these parts will get more rare with time.  And, I thought some others might findthe analysis interesting.  If you did, great!  ;D

Soapbox:
Lots of people complain about part costs for these bikes with no concept of what it costs to actually produce the part they want.  Does Honda charge a premium for the parts they sell.  Yes. These are unique parts!  Is it outrages?  Don't say so unless you are danged sure you could make and sell the same part for less money.  And, if you can, then why don't you make some money doing it?  The answer is usually because you really can't.  Many don't have a clue what making the part entails.  Some people only see that getting the proper and correct part for their bike steals their beer money.  Oh Horror! :o

Who's really the greedy one?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline jaknight

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TT --------> You've done a fine job of logistics.

   Having said that, I am hunkered down in a crouch waiting for the Wrath of God to come down on me.

   I have a 750 K4.  I hate the plastic/composite/kevlar/fiberglass whatevers on my motorcycles.  It is because of these things that I have never bought a car newer than 1976.  I'll take a '34 Ford, Chevy, Packard, what have that is made with good steel and aluminum (as even in the Deusenburgs or how ever you spell it!).

   It was because of the composite crap that I stopped working on the B2 bomber.  If you breathe the dust generated while you are drilling on the B2 you can be dead in a heart beat.

   I admire your planning, but if I were to make side covers, and if I were to buy side covers,  I would make mine out of 6061-T4 aluminum.  Anneal them to the "0" condition, form and pierce them in a hydroforming machine or an old fashioned punch press, trim if necessary, then heat treat them back to the T-4 condition.  For "0" condition aluminum, the forming process could be done with 6065-T56 aluminum forming dies.

   I have one side cover now which is blistering, peeling and bubbling.  Why?  Who knows?  Battery acid, gasoline, sweat from my legs coming through my Levis ( I live in Arizona.  A 120 plus degree heat can do wonders).

   Why should I buy composite stuff with a "painted" finish that here in Arizona will more than likely blister and bubble again?  Drop it accidently on a hard surface where it hits wrong and it can break.  Ever buy a multi hundred dollar Mount Blanc pen that looks so terrific and writes great, it's 80 years old and such a beautiful piece, then drop it on a hard linoleum floor and it shatters like a piece of glass?

   Well, I have violated the religion.........
"THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD........
..........EXCEPT IN A SWORD FIGHT"
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Offline TwoTired

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Hey, I admire craftsmanship.  And, metal side covers would be wonderful.  I believe my old Honda 305 had metal side covers.  It would be interesting to see how you would incorporate the posts on the back for the ones used on the SOHC4, though.

No doubt metal ones would last longer.  But, should I care after my lifetime?  I have plastic covers that are 30 years old and still serviceable.  I don't know of any paint that will last that long when exposed to the elements.  I don't care if it is on plastic or metal.  And, there are shapes you can mold out of molten or liquid plastic, that you just can't stamp into metal.

As for breathing dust.  Yes, it's bad for you.  Even if it is aluminum dust.  And particularly so if you have an alergy (or develop one) to the specific dust type being inhaled, it can be deadly.

A cover done in plastic is for economics.  If the volume is there, plastic covers, painted or not, will be less expensive than metal ones.  Few vehicle manufacturers plan or even want their vehicle to last more than ten years.  Plastic fits into this scheme nicely.  For the product I did as part of my job, the product life time was only 5 years.  The device would actually last far longer than that.  There are still some of those working today.  But, the internal technology is now obsolete.  Most devices in the computer or electronic industry are that way.

Anyway, if you are going to make 20,000 or more side covers. You can make them out of plastic far cheaper than metal.  Externally they look the same to the public when displayed in showrooms.  If you try to get the customer to pay for the extra quality, you can price yourself out of the marketplace.  When the masses of people compare brand A and brand B, what percentage are concerned about how the bike will look and perform 30 years from now?  And, how much buying decision weight will they put on durability vs. out of pocket dollars?
The Japanese bike market was/is very competative.  Sales prices have to be low enough to sell product and still have built in margin for your company to be profitable, and be able to invest in new products and technologies.  I didn't buy any of my bikes new.  Nor did I evaluate any of them for long term durability.  I got them because they were cheap or at least affordable.  I have learned, over time, to value quality.  But, I can't say at age 25 that was my priority when choosing a motorcycle.   If you told me then I'd still have the same bike to this day, I'd KNOW you were crazy!

As I said before, the cost of the plastic in the cover is likely $0.50.   It would be hard to believe the materials cost for a metal cover could aproach that.  Tools for making metal parts just do not last as long as those for making plastic ones, either, particularly ABS.

Think you could make and sell metal side covers for under $100?  Uh, without slave labor?
I've been wrong before.  But, I'd need some hard data to believe that's even possible.  Elsewhere in this forum we have a guy who only wanted to pay $15-$20 for side cover.  Care to make a metal one for that, in ANY quantity?  The process you describe, while yummy, sounds like it would cost more. I personally wouldn't want to do more than 2 or 3 with your method.  I could probably WATCH someone else do up to ten of them in metal before the fascination wore off. :-)   I like the metal forming processes.  But, the economics of them?  Hydroforming? Punch presses?  Heat treating machines? That's some investment capital!  These aren't small toys! They need a building built for them!  You're gonna have to sell a LOT of $20 side covers to pay for that!  For sure you won't have to worry about what to do with your free time. ;-)

Lastly, to respond to a few of your points:
The blistering peeling and flaking is a paint failure that can happen to painted aluminum, too.  In fact, I have bikes with bad paint on the gas tank and side covers.  It's a matter of exposure, not substrate, I think.  Battery acids and body acids will corrode aluminum and most metals.  Plastic is actually more resistant to these substances.  Paint?   Well, it depends on the paint.
Yes, plastic may break or bounce when dropped.  I think the stock Honda side covers are ABS.  A plastic not known for it's strength characteristics.  Fiberglass, probably won't break.  And, there must be a thousand plastic formulations that won't break when dropped.  But, neither will dent like aluminum.

No doubt I prefer quality.  And, I'd love to see (and even make) metal side covers, if I had those skills.  It's a matter of how much and where you'd like to spend your money.

Hope I wasn't too hard on ya.  In many ways I agree with you.  Metal generally has more longevity than plastics.  And, I prefer metal in most places over plastic.   But, does a side cover need the same material properties as the frame?  I don't think I'd be at all happy with a plastic valve cover.  But, a side cover is okay with me to be plastic.

Got any metal side covers for sale?   How much $ ?

If you can convince the government to buy them, you could probably get $2000 for each one!

Cheers,

 

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline jaknight

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Hello TT and Everyone Else,

   Yes, you make some fine points; well made and well taken.  I do fear the Wrath of God - - just as W. C. Fields said when Errol Flynn caught him at home reading a Bible ( Fields was a non believer ),  Flynn asked him "What are you doing?!!"  Fields replied, "I'm looking for loopholes."

   I did not intend to flame you about this.  I apologize if it came across that way.  Just as some people prefer coffee made with arabica beans and others prefer robust beans, there are different tastes and preferences for different people.  My main point is I have a great dislike for plastic and epoxy resins of all sorts.  I have worked with epoxies and metals for many, many years.  You could say I started when I was 12 years old by taking a military issue 1903 Springfield rifle and converting it to a hunting sporting style rifle.  I cut down the barrel with a hacksaw, trued the end of the crown with a file and a protractor set to the correct angle and using a file, smoothed out the steps and irregularities of the barrel.  It was a nice rifle for a 12 year old's project.

   I just do not like epoxies, resins, plastics of any kind.  I do realize that you work and deal with these and it has been part of your life for quite a while.  I am sorry if I have insulted something that you are closely involved with.  And, you are right, the 305 did have metal sidecovers with a screw in knob to attach them.  Yes, I had a Honda SuperHawk, bought brand new for $500 ~ ~ what a deal.

   I work with stainless steel, cold rolled steel, titanium, chrome moly, aluminum, 17-7PH, waspalloy, nickel, ad infinitum.  Strange, though, the biggest health warnings that I get with all the materials I work with is always with the epoxies and synthetics.  There are still fantastic aircraft flying made with hard metals ~ ~ the SR71, the F15, etc.,

   Yes, you can do much with molding, I would still be willing to pay more for metal,
    jaknight
"THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD........
..........EXCEPT IN A SWORD FIGHT"
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Offline TwoTired

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I never took it as a flame.  And, no offense taken.  I think it would be seriously cool to see metal side covers.  But, such things shouldn't be hidden with ordinary paint.  Chromed or, even better, engine turned!  That would be something to see.  8)

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Zane

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What is "engine turned"?

I think this is a great subject discussion you guys.  The side covers for my 400F are even more elementary that ones required for Honda's 750 lines and I came very close to just making my own.  (I should say trying to make my own.)  It was great to read all this info exchange.  It really has saved me a lot of time and effort to read a couple of pros (or ex-pros) discuss the whole side cover making issue.

Sincerely, thanks a lot.

What about stamping a quite thin sidecover out of aluminum - for form,  and then dipping the thing in epoxy resin (or something) to build it up to a structurally stable thickness?   

Offline pmpski_1

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Applause for the thought and time put into this thread...and "engine turned" would be so cool I wouldn't be able to ride without them!
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Offline TwoTired

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You could just google "engine turning" to find more info on engine turning.  But, here are some quick examples.
http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~eamonn/et/et.htm
http://www.rgmwatches.com/engine99.html

Basically you polish/scratch the surface of the metal in a geometric patern.  Also called "jeweling".

Thin aluminum in flat form flexes greatly.  However, if you dome it and make it into a bowl-ish shape, it tends to retain it's shape much more rigidly.  I think that was what jaknight was going for with the hydro forming into a mold.

Aluminum is pretty strong by itself.  In bowl form, it probably wouldn't need an epoxy coating for strength.  The difficulty with the epoxy buildup approach, as I see it, is that the two materials have a different modulus of elasticity.  The aluminum would flex and the epoxy would crack.  Epoxy is usually used as a binder not a strength member.  Fiberglass, for example, can be bound and held rigid with an epoxy resin.  But, the strength is in the glass or fabric used in the composite.  There are many different formulations of epoxy with cured hardness and flexure parameters that differ.  But, in general you can smack a fiberglass part with a hammer and it won't dent or break and will rebound back into its previous form.  But, there may be surface cracks in the resin binder, even though the fiberglass strength component will still be intact.  Metals dent or deform under such impact occurances.
Aluminum is maleable and cured resins like epoxy are not.  They can't be reformed (cold) without incurring stress cracks.  Hardened aluminum, on the other hand, can incurr stress cracks through flexure and deformation.

The use of an epoxy dip on a formed aluminum side cover should probably be done only as a way to preserve its chemical integrity by keeping the elements away from it, preventing corosion.  And, a thin coating would be more liklely to flex along with the aluminum over temperature changes and vibration.  But, there are lots of epoxies that age and degrade with exposure to UV light (sunlight).
Engineering tradeoffs.
Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Lumbee

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...not sure if this thread was started due to my earlier thread http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=5786.0 .  At any rate I met with a local plastic fad shop in town and he confirmed what twowired said.  He said he thought the materials alone would be 15-25 dollars.  This was after I told him I had a price target of 15-20 dollars  :-\ .  He also said (as did twoW) that the posts on the covers would be a problem.  He said he could make a mold for the cover, no problem, but not for the posts.  I left the side cover with him, he said he'd have some of "his guys" look at it and see what they could come up with, but it sounds like its dead in the water.

 I contacted some folks in china from alibaba.com about possible fabricating the covers.  While two's numbers may be conservative for the "West" I think that they may not apply to companies in Asia, as they seem to defy the laws of manufacturing.  The challange with that would be the language and geographic beariers...
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damn_yankee

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I mentioned making a mold for fun in a previous post. You can make an RTV mold cast off a good part for around $150 US materials only. You supply the labor. I've done this for models and prototype parts and with some diligence and patience it will look exactly like the part you made the mold from. Of course, you need a good part to start with. You can then cast polyseter resin with cloth or polyurethane 2-part components. The mold can last around 100 pieces if you take care of it. You'll have to clean off the mold release after you cast the parts, sand and paint but the outcome could be nice. If you wanted to do a small run it would be feasible. You will not make a killing on this but it could be fun.

The same basic method could apply if you want to make an aluminum part except that you would cast wax in the RTV mold and use the lost wax aluminum casting process. You'd have to find a vendor that can pour the aluminum but I have seen on the web a few home-brew casters. I do not advise doing this yourself. Machining the covers would be an enormous expense.

A couple of other things to note:
Steel tools for injection molding last over 100,000 pieces.
Aluminum injection mold tools usually last >1000 < 10000 pieces
If you are going to injection mold - the part has color built in and has a high finish - no sanding or painting needed.

I did not see anyone factor in the effort required to either develop drawings or 3-D CAD files for parts. That is a couple weeks effort by a very competent engineer/designer with surfacing skills. This would be needed for an injection mold or machined part. These parts are not just simple flat planes.

Pressure formed covers (vs. vaccum forming) could be an option but low volume parts would still be costly. The parts have to be trimmed and sanded/painted.

I personally just repaired my right side cover. It had a couple cracks previously that broke again. I just added some cloth and bondo for now.

Jeff

Offline vames

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How the heck does Meier make those sidecover replicas for a mere $25 a piece? Yeah - they're not original  in that you have to drill and screw to attach them rather than attaching with the posts on the back, and the're not exactly the right shape (if they were going to make them, why wouldn't they do it right?). But for the most part, they are blown-ABS pieces that are a lot like the real thing. So why would it be so hard and expensive to make true OEM-style replicas?

eldar

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You can go to cycle-recycle. the address is in the faqs. Other sites have them too. The left side fits fine for the most part. the right is a bit off cause of the bolt at the bottom of the oil tank. I however like the bolt on aspect cause the bolts add accent and make it harder for some ass to steal the cover. They cant just pop the cover off. they have to unscrew three screws. It is a deterant at least.

Zane

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http://www.themotorbookstore.com/repair-plastic-bodywork.html

You could just google "engine turning" to find more info on engine turning.  But, here are some quick examples.

Sometimes the obvious completely eludes me - I'm not sure why - it just does.  Thanks for answering, regardless.

Your attention to my idea is appreciated.  I can see why it's not workable, and I thank you for the clear(ish) explanation.

I wonder if all fiberglass fibres are soft and flexible?  If one could form a - rigid enough to be dipped - fabric side cover and then dip that into the resin, maybe that would work.....

Here's a site that shows how to make a home-made sort of thing that looks like it would work for a side panel (at least for a 400F side panel).

http://www.alumilite.com/howto.cfm?ID=6

And you folks have probably already seen these two publications, but they do look sort of interesting to this amateur anyway.

http://www.themotorbookstore.com/repair-plastic-bodywork.html

http://www.buildersbooks.com/how_to_cast_small_metal.htm

Offline jaknight

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HEY DUSTERDUDE

   I'm not sure about it being butchered (it was pretty sadly bashed when I got the Springfield, but I know what you mean about the precious history).

   There were a few things that crossed the wrong end of the barrel that did make a quick and terminal visit to that illustrious, meat cleaving maniac ( he was also the PostMaster and the local Pastor ) ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~   ;)
"THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD........
..........EXCEPT IN A SWORD FIGHT"
___________________________________________
"There is nothing new under the sun.........But there are many old things we do not know"
BIBLE ---> Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth

Offline vames

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like i said, these guys are making something that is 90% there to being an original type cover. If they sell them for 25 through a reseller, you have to imagine that wholesale is about $15 and that the production cost is probably somewhere around $5 to $10. so why is the business model so messed up - there are a lot of owners out there who woudn't touch these covers but would use an ABS cover if it had the little stems and the right shape.

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/showCustom-0/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2000597/c-10111/Nty-1/p-2000597/Ntx-mode+matchallpartial/N-10111/tf-Browse/s-10101/Ntk-AllTextSearchGroup?Ntt=meier

BTW - F1's only need a left side cover because the oil tank on the right is beautifully painted black and looks better uncovered.


Offline TwoTired

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like i said, these guys are making something that is 90% there to being an original type cover.

No, it's not.  The face of the cover is only about 25% of reproducing the original cover design.  The real difficulty lies in the mounting posts as I explained in the very first posting of this thread under "Assembly".

If they sell them for 25 through a reseller, you have to imagine that wholesale is about $15 and that the production cost is probably somewhere around $5 to $10. so why is the business model so messed up - there are a lot of owners out there who woudn't touch these covers but would use an ABS cover if it had the little stems and the right shape.

I believe the original covers *ARE* ABS, injection molded.  Perhaps you missed an important point in the business model.  The costs for designing, developing, building, and operating the machine that makes the parts is paid back through sales of the finished parts.  The business model makes perfect sense with a simple uncomplex molded part.

If you are to draw or eject a formed part out of a rigid mold, it has to have a draft angle.  This means the part must get smaller as it reaches into the female part of the mold.  The reverse is true for the male part of the mold.  This is necessary to get the part to extract from the mold.  Negative draft angles captivate the part.   So, you have to break the mold or the part to extract it.    Instead of breaking the mold and rendering it useless for another part casting, parts that require negative draft angles must have multipart molds and must articulate out of position in order to extract the part from the mold.
I'm looking at an original Honda left cover as I type this.  And, looking at the back I can see that each post is formed with two articulating mold inserts.  The mold for this cover had a fairly simple face for the front.  Not only did the back articulate away from the part for extraction, but there were six presicion machined inserts that also articulated to release the molded post features.  The face mold, back mold, and each insert also had to have liquid cooling in order to extract the part in a reasonable cycle time.  This was an expensive mold to make.  Easily $100,000, and probably more, and required quite some skill and development time to create.  But, if you make and sell 50,000 covers, they only cost you $2 -$4 each?  Honda had to paint them, which added some cost.  But, the one I bought from their parts counter was $85.  So, I'm pretty sure their investment paid off.

I haven't actually seen a Meier cover backside.  But, from what I can gather about how these mount, there aren't any draft angles on the back to hinder part ejection form a mold.  Such a part shape is pretty easy to mold.   A part that simple could probably even be vacuformed out of ABS sheet and the excess trimmed off.  The mold would be very cheap. Even a plaster cast would do for low volume production runs.  And, the vacuform machine could be made for under $1000, if you're good at scrounging parts.    But, then you still won't have mounting posts to snap into those grommets.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

damn_yankee

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This is the Maier part. It is probably a pressure formed part. Two Tired is right - they are not faithfully reproducing the original part. I'm sure they chose to go this way to keep their tooling costs down.  They are selling them for $28.13 each.

http://www.maier-mfg.com/shop.cfm?Product_ID=20560&page=details.cfm&cartaction=none&thisrow=2&action=list&criteria=401&startrow=1&mystartrow=1&maxrows=10&cat=&man=&stay=&afid=&searchcat_id=&itemprice=&searchfield=&searchman_id=&boolean=&var1=&var2=&var3=&makeid=10&modelid=128&modelyear=

Buffo

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My bike has the Meier side covers...took about 5 minutes to drill the holes...the plasitc is a little brittle right out of the box

eldar

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I got the meiers and they are good and flexable and aside from messing them up with what turned out to be bad paint, they work fine. I like the screw on part and the posts suck cause some ass could take them off in 2 seconds. The only part was the bottom mount bolt for the oil tank had to be cut out a bit more than I would like. I dont know of anyone here with a show bike so these covers are just fine to replace the original. My opinion is that most of the cracks I have ever seen start around the pegs anyways. So it was a bad design on hondas part as far as I am concerned. Besides, I like the accent of the screws.

Offline TwoTired

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My bike has the Meier side covers...took about 5 minutes to drill the holes...the plasitc is a little brittle right out of the box

Do you know that you should not use drills intended for steel or wood on plastic?  Standard wood and steel twist drills have too agressive a cutting angle, take too large a bite, and can crack the plastic rather than shave off thin swarf spirals.  If you can't find twist drills tipped for plastic cutting, those Unibit step drills work quite well, though.  Just don't put too much pressure on the part while cutting.

And, since we have uninformed, but highly opinionated, contributors bashing the excellent Honda side cover design, I'd like to remind those of you who still have the original side covers, to renew the mounting grommets in the frame for those covers.  Cover retention and ease of installation and removal depend on these grommets being in good supple shape.  When these grommets get old and hard, getting the cover off can require a lot of force.  If the removal force is not applied with extra care and concern, cover breakage is likely, as the tips of the mount pins must compress the rubber for release.

Blaming the cover design on poor maintenence practices is like blaming the engine design for failure when oil is denied the engine.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline ofreen

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Blaming the cover design on poor maintenence practices is like blaming the engine design for failure when oil is denied the engine.

It would be hard to argue with that.  The side covers on mine are still OK after 30 years, and they have been off and on who knows how many times.  When taking them off, I don't pull on the cover.  I push the pins out from behind instead.  I use Ru-glide on the grommets when replacing the covers.  The Ru-glide has kept the grommets supple over the years.

Greg
'75 CB750F
Greg
'75 CB750F

"I would rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question." - Dr. Wei-Hock Soon

Offline Kevin

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Where were you when I got the hair brained idea to manufacture side covers for the CB400F? I wish somebody had of been there to talk me out of it. It's been five years since the mold was made and I have yet to recover my initial investment. The side covers are of excellent quality but you will be hard pressed to find a guy willing to buy a set for $75.00 including decals.

For anybody out there who's even thinking of making side covers for the CB400F, I have a mold that I will make you a really good deal on :-)

Kevin
A couple of 400F's and a
'98 Suzuki Intruder VS1400 ~ for long rides

eldar

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Ahh the blind idolism of everything honda. Honda does most everything very well but the side cover post is not one of them. Some uninformed people never bother to see if there is anything better or a better way of doing things. These people of course said man should not fly and do not like other opinions.

If these cover posts were so great, why are people constantly looking for new covers? My bike came with both covers broken at the posts. Rubber was fine on both sides. The post would have been fine if the base had been stronger. Maybe those of use who have onwed the bike since it was new do not have to worry about things like this, most of us are second, third, and even fourth hand owners.
The covers were shaped well and looked nice, it is just the post/cover junction that was weak.

If you can get original covers, good for you. They look great and do not scratch easily. posts are still weak. i however wanted a bike I liked( as do most of us, I think) that looked good in MY eyes and was reliable and ran good. I have other things to spend $50 on other than used side covers.

But what if poor engine design is what starved the engine of oil???? It has happened before.

Jughead

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Uh I have a fellow that does Reproduction panels for me for Suzuki's out of Fiberglass.If I had some Good Panels there wouldn't be any Charge for the Molds only for Each Part Produced. ;) Not sure on what the Cost would be without some Good unbroken Examples to send for Examination.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 07:17:35 PM by Jughead »

eldar

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The fiberglass reminded me that with a clam shell style mold, one could do a cover out of resin. Granted unless you really monkeyed around with the mold, you would not be able to add posts. I dont have a problem with that but some are sticklers.
It is another option though and resin is not too expensive.

Another option, if you have some minor equipment is to make a mold out of clay and make a cover out of aluminum. I have done molding with liquid aluminum and it works very well if the mold is decent. You do need to machine a bit but not much again if the mold is decent.

These are all options a person could explore. Hell if you had a decent vacuum and mold, you could even vacuum form plastic.

I have seen these for r/c car bodies and while these are thinner than cover, I would think there would be a way to apply this technique.

Right now, for me the meier covers are adequate though.

Offline ohiocaferacer

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If you would like to make your own.....cheap vacuum forming......heres a link to a "How to Vacuum Form":

http://www.hortoncustoms.net/hardcore/viewtopic.php?t=3259
Homemade vacu former....shop vac, plywood, stand, metal frame.....and ABS plastic sheet.....


and test part.....Honda 50 chain gaurd....


These guys at this Chopper forum know there stuff and it looks like a good way to form new side covers. Dont know how you would form the mounting pegs into it........but if you dropped a note to Randy Horton(the guy who wrote the info)....he may have to trick up his sleeve.

I hope to give this vacuum forming a try here soon........need to make some CR450 solo race seat pans. I post something as soon as I have done one.

Later,
Greg
www.OHIOCAFERACERS.com

eldar

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That part looks very good. I thought a vacuum form might work. I think with vacuum form you can also use whatever color you want for plastic.

Offline ohiocaferacer

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Yep....any color you can find.

Mostly only in white, black and natural......for ABS

eldar

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that works anyways as you can paint the covers. I might have to check into vacuum forming for myself sometime.

Offline Bob Wessner

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It is an interesting thought. Is there no form of epoxy that would be strong enough to attach posts to the formed cover?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

eldar

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You might be able to use epoxy. I have not found any that could fix broken posts reliably though. But then there is a difference between new plastic and old.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Did a quick search with my buddy Google and found this, don't know how well any of them would work, but thought I would get it included in the thread. Maybe someone can give it a try.

http://www.machinist-materials.com/adhesives.htm
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline gregk

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My two bits

I worked with fiberglass years ago, building canoes and cat hulls.  It would be easy to take a mold off the orignial side cover.  If you use " boat cloth" , woven roving instead of the regular mat, you could build up the piece so it was strong enough to stand on!  The question of the fasteners is still a problem.  I wonder if magnets imbedded in the glass would work?  Place the magnets in the same locaion as the original stems and they should stick to the metal frame of the bike?  The cover would look like the original piece without the screws used in the aftermarket covers.

I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

eldar

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Magnets are an idea. The only concern there is the vibration and jolting to the bike. Would have to be strong magnets. You could however do a metal post system where the head is embedded in to the fiberglass. This would be much better than than the old honda method.