Topic: Was anyone else deeply offended by the "You Lie!" outburst?

[DammitDan]

Well I'm not the one who created this thread now am I?

Just wondering, why do people on the internet expect everyone to "quote" reliable sources when they question your answers? Should I just put up a fake web page and cite it as my evidence? It must be true, I read it on the web.......

Because if you pull your answers out of your ass and can't back them up with data or sources, you end up defeating your own argument.

It's how science (and debate) works.  Can't reproduce the experiment?  Then it's junk science.  

Can't produce any sources?  Then it's a junk argument.

[Ecosse]

that doesn't pan out either. i've seen credible direct quotes and links that clearly support a given argument only to be utterly ignored by those who wish to remain in their bubble of preconception.

it's happened to me many times. but don't take my word for it as it's just hearsay. 

[mrblasty]

What do you do Ed.... Just as MM I have worked since I was 14 and have made decent money over the years (I'm certainly not even 40 yet) but it has fallen through the basement as of the last couple of years.

Oddly enough I have never been able to afford proper health insurance. I just haven't made that kind of money.

What with.....

Rent
Electric
Telephone
Water
Gas
Internet/TV (bundled to keep cost low)
Car/Motorcycle Insurance (mandatory here)
Shop Rent
Business Insurance (does not cover health)
Renters Insurance (so cheap you cannot pass it up... if you are smart)


I don't make enough money to afford health insurance.... especially when it rivals my home and shop rent combined. And my employer (small business) cannot afford it for us employees either.

So if I don't qualify for Medicaid..... and I cannot even come close to affording COBRA..... and my job doesn't provide insurance.....

What am I supposed to do?

Don't worry Jebus will make you all better. Just pray harder

[tomkimberly]

I think you are confussed, when I said ask them, I meant ask any of the southern friends. Many will gladly tell you they here only for the money and will return to their home country when they retire. This is also true to many who are here legally. They will just have their social security checks mailed south, a perfectly leagal thing to do, and they will live like kings due to the low cost of living where they come from.

If ranchara music, day laborers gathering around home improvement centers, and English as a second language courses have not showed up in your town yet, just wait, it will happen.

Tom

Well I'm not the one who created this thread now am I?

Just wondering, why do people on the internet expect everyone to "quote" reliable sources when they question your answers? Should I just put up a fake web page and cite it as my evidence? It must be true, I read it on the web.......

Because if you pull your answers out of your ass and can't back them up with data or sources, you end up defeating your own argument.

It's how science (and debate) works.  Can't reproduce the experiment?  Then it's junk science.  

Can't produce any sources?  Then it's a junk argument.

[333]

To get back to the original question, yes.  Deeply offended.  And it is also, at least to me, yet more proof that this whole right/left thing is getting a bit racist.  Think about it.  When has an incident like this happened before?  It hasn't.  When has a sitting president ever been stopped by any of the population in speaking to the school systems at the beginning of the school year?  I heard Richard Clarke reminisce about when he was a child and a children's show he would watch daily, would "toast" then President Eisenhower each day.  Not a peep from the opposing party.  Yet last week, an uproar was heard as if he were going to hand out hand grenades and tell the kids to kill whitey.  And when was a president's citizenship ever been questioned?  Never.

As a white American, I can't speak for Black America.  But I'll bet this has not gone unnoticed.



Popcorn, anyone?

[johnyvilla]

Yea people have gotten real crazy. I know and love many Republicans, and agree with some of their points of view. I am all for welfare reform, lower taxes, etc. What I do not agree with is all this crazy Fox News business. I think most of the network news shows are a little bit biased toward the left, but they never put pictures of Bush next to pictures of Hitler on the screen. There is no accountability with Fox News. They have some crack-pot expert on air saying "Obama wants Socialism" or "Obama wants to take your guns" and viewers, some of which cannot explain socialism to begin with, believe it. I had a huge argument with a lady at work that told me Obama was communist, who said, " You know Communist like Russia" Best she could do. When Bush was in office people were protesting the war, but no democratic congressman was rude enough to interrupt him during a speech.

[cleveland]

And it is also, at least to me, yet more proof that this whole right/left thing is getting a bit racist. 

I think having a half white/half black president is proof that's a dead issue.   

[333]

But it has pissed off enough people that these things still are happening.  It has pushed the racists off the deep end.  And when they say the things that they have been saying long enough, those at the far edge of the right, who aren't necessarily racist, will start to believe that stuff too.  I just saw a report on CNN on Glenn Becks "9/12" event here in D.C..  The reporter was surprised that the whole "death panels" thing has turned into death camps, and mandatory abortions and sterilizations will rule the day if Obama gets his way.  That's what has been discussed at this event today.

[cleveland]

There will always be someone stupid enough to buy even the most ridiculous BS.     The key is to not feed into it.  Take conservative talk show shows for instance.  Most of thier grievances begin with valid points but they blow them so far out of proportion that no one takes them seriously.  It's really a shame, and the same thing has happen on this thread.

I believe that socialized medicine is dangerous, but so is the condition of the current system.  If these people with their out of control egos could find a place in the middle to compromise, we might have a chance of having a decent system.  The problem is that a good number of them believe their way is the only way, the opposition's points are beneath them, and compromise would surely be a sign of weakness. 

Until it's all worked out, I will continue to haggle my heath care costs and pay in cash.

[johnyvilla]

Good point Cleveland. I think we need to have a public health care option for US citizens, but I think now is not the right time, due to our current economic situation. But many, (and I mean many) people think Obama wants all this crazy sh4t, because they saw it on fox news. My mom asked this middle eastern guy that owned a convenient store, where he sent his money from his business! She figured he was supporting terrorism because Bill O'Riely put it in her head.

[333]

How is socialized medicine dangerous?  Or to put it another way, how is a system that gives health care to everyone dangerous?  You couldn't be buying into the idea that socialized medicine is just a "gateway" to full blown socialism?

I'm not saying it would be perfect, but I do believe we would take the faults of existing health care systems and do a good job of not making the same mistakes.

[seaweb11]

It's all very simple.
Durring my trip this summer in to the States, when people would ask me where I was from and found out I was Canadian, eventually the conversation would get to health care.

The US is split down the middle.

On one hand you have a rancher living off his land and minding his own business and he wants to be left alone. Basically "F8ck every one else, I'm fine.
I can respect his position.

On the other, you have people living in cities who work very hard but also have more access to more people with different views and about the Country they live in, are also doing there best but still come up short when it comes to paying for their health care.
I can respect his position.

P.S. I'm sure there are plenty of City dwellers with the same F*ck you point of view as well, I just didn't meet any

Either way, can you idiots just agree to disagree and get back to your bikes.

Some of you are F*ck you leave me alone types and some are not. I would prefer to ride with which ever doesn't #$%* at me all day about it.

ENOUGH ALLREADY

[Uncle Ernie]

And it is also, at least to me, yet more proof that this whole right/left thing is getting a bit racist.  
[/quote]

I think having a half white/half black president is proof that's a dead issue.    
[/quote]


I don't believe you'll ever hear a black person say that.


Mr Seaweb, I spent the whole day in the saddle on phenominal roads I'm not sure I'll be able to find again.  I'm so tired, I can hardly hold my head up.

[edbikerii]

That's a very good point, Ernie.  Seems like it really wasn't much of an issue at all for non-blacks, but it is a very big deal indeed for blacks.  Frankly, I think the first black president thing was met with a giant "ho hum" by most Americans.  Hell, the entire Republican party would have voted for Colin Powell or Condoleeza Rice over Obama.

Kind of like Barnie Frank coming out of the closet.  Nobody gives a damn that he is openly gay.  The fact that he is a moron stands decisively on its own, regardless of race or sexual orientation.

And it is also, at least to me, yet more proof that this whole right/left thing is getting a bit racist.  

I think having a half white/half black president is proof that's a dead issue.    
[/quote]


I don't believe you'll ever hear a black person say that.


Mr Seaweb, I spent the whole day in the saddle on phenominal roads I'm not sure I'll be able to find again.  I'm so tired, I can hardly hold my head up.
[/quote]

[cleveland]

How is socialized medicine dangerous?  Or to put it another way, how is a system that gives health care to everyone dangerous? 

I don't know of one thing the gov. doesn't screw up.  Social sec, welfare, Medicaid, etc...  Now we should any to trust they will do a good job with healthcare.  That just seems dangerous to me. 

Besides, it's not a system that gives health care to everyone.  It's a system that takes from everyone that works, and redistributes that money in the name of healthcare.  With programs like badger care, there are already solutions for people down on their luck. 

So the real question is, who stands to benefit from a government run healthcare?  I don't, so why would I want to pay for it?     

I don't believe you'll ever hear a black person say that.

LOL!!!  Actually, a black friend is the one that said it to me.  Then his sister said, "If a mix boy with a single mother can be president, then you have no excuse for being unemployed!"  He is employed, but she made a great point.  The race card is no longer valid. 

You couldn't be buying into the idea that socialized medicine is just a "gateway" to full blown socialism?

In may ways we are already there.  We have generations of families on welfare and that's pretty socialist to me. 

[bucky katt]

come on folks, lets all hold hands and sing "kumbaya" now k?

[ofreen]

Hoppe's #9 has always worked for me. 

Yep, me too. 

Hoppe's #9 just hasn't been the same since they took the benzene out.

[mark]

Hoppe's #9 has always worked for me. 

Yep, me too. 

Hoppe's #9 just hasn't been the same since they took the benzene out.

Always liked the smell of the stuff.

 


One little whiff of #9 Bench Rest and almost dropped the jar.

 

[Skonnie Boy]

I've watched 2 generations of my family in Sweden live to the ripe old age of 90+, thanks to socialized medicine.  I watched them pay the equivalent of $20 per doctor visit, whether it was for triple-bypass heart surgery, or just a checkup.  I've watched my great grandmother, my great aunt and my grandmother spend their last days in state run nursing homes that were superior to what I watched my American grandfather and grandmother die in.  Any of you could only hope to receive the care I've seen my family receive in Sweden over the last 25 years. 

Models of healthcare clearly vary from country to country, I could not speak to the quality of healthcare in Britain, Canada or elsewhere.

But. 

In my experience, when a trip to the doctor costs $20, you go more often.  When you go more often, you tend to find/diagnose problems earlier.  When you diagnose illnesses earlier, you have more/cheaper treatment options. 

The people on the "front lines" of this "tea party rebellion" are like so many 8 year olds, playing with green plastic soldiers in a war that doesn't really exist. 

[masonryman]

I've watched 2 generations of my family in Sweden live to the ripe old age of 90+, thanks to socialized medicine.  I watched them pay the equivalent of $20 per doctor visit, whether it was for triple-bypass heart surgery, or just a checkup.  I've watched my great grandmother, my great aunt and my grandmother spend their last days in state run nursing homes that were superior to what I watched my American grandfather and grandmother die in.  Any of you could only hope to receive the care I've seen my family receive in Sweden over the last 25 years. 

Models of healthcare clearly vary from country to country, I could not speak to the quality of healthcare in Britain, Canada or elsewhere.

But. 

In my experience, when a trip to the doctor costs $20, you go more often.  When you go more often, you tend to find/diagnose problems earlier.  When you diagnose illnesses earlier, you have more/cheaper treatment options. 

The people on the "front lines" of this "tea party rebellion" are like so many 8 year olds, playing with green plastic soldiers in a war that doesn't really exist. 

I pay $12,000 a year for insurance just to pay another $3200 in deductibles, on the bright side my max out of pocket a year is set at $10,000 ( deductable plus co-pays) the only reason I do it is for the wife and kids.

After my experience with my last wellness visits, next time I go to a doctor will be on a stretcher

[RatBikeRandy]

This comment is on insults during a President's speech.

It has happened before except that it was MULTIPLE DEMOCRATS booing Pres. Bush during the State of the Union address.  Now that you have this little tidbit, they seem a little hypocritical don't they? 

Both were uncalled for, but it seems to be OK if it's against the other guy.  This is the point that needs to be made.

[Bob Wessner]

My wife and I just returned from a week in the U.P. No, TV, no Internet, but I did rig our portable satellite radio so we would have some outside world info and contact. We did get to hear the speech live and I think both parties to the dispute did a disservice to all of us.

Wilson was rude by American standards. He could have just said, "That's not true" and he would have been right, though slightly less rude.

The President should have taken just one moment to explain how it works and I think most folks would have not given it a second thought. Maybe he doesn't know how it works, or he just didn't want to take the time.

Unless all of us want to start carrying our birth certificate or passport with us at all times, how is an ER to know who is citizen or legal immigrant? I don't think the ER is the place to determine someone's legal status.

If someone is in an accident and airlifted to an ER for life saving treatment, that's their job and we expect it as a society, regardless of who the patient is.

At the end of the year, the hospital, or whatever, runs the numbers and some of their costs are unrecoverable through insurance. It's happened this way for decades and it happens now. Those costs are there and become part of the next negotiation with insurance carriers, Medicare etc. and become part of the basis for increased fees.

So, although the legislation currently making the rounds does specifically state no government funds will not be used to provide healthcare to illegal immigrants, it will happen to some extent. It does today and it will tomorrow. The healthcare debate is not the place to try and deal with it, nor would it be the most effective way to deal with it.

Both sides screwed up an opportunity to clear the air in my opinion.

[Ecosse]

can i be retroactively "deeply offended"?    must be because he's white.

"I don't believe you'll ever hear a black person say that."

uncle ernie, that seems to be a bit of a racist comment. you presume to speak for all (any) blacks?

"more proof that this whole right/left thing is getting a bit racist."

333, i'd say that too is a hugely over generalized statement based in rasim.

mind everyone i'm not suggesting either person is racist because i don't believe it so. but both presumptions are based on the racist premise that 1) all right wingers cannot possibly disagree with the bo for any other reason  than his skin color), 2) all republicans are white and the only conservative minorities and women must suffer stockholm syndrome because the gop hates them. and 3) all blacks/minorities think alike in a monolithic fashion.

forgive me if i've misunderstood the intent of either statement but frankly i'm taking them for face value.

are there far right and racist loons? absolutely. i've seen it. but... shock... there are left winger loons too with their own dangerous prejudices.    

[johnyvilla]

But Bob, Saying "That's not true" might sound better, but it doesn't seem accurate. If an illegal immigrant comes into an ER and is treated right now, the hospital makes every effort to collect payment from them. If not they eat the loss. So say hypothetically we have this public option, the same illegal immigrant still has no insurance, goes to the ER. The hospital tries to recover loss from patient. Same outcome. How is the president incorrect in saying illegals will not be covered?

[Bob Wessner]

But Bob, Saying "That's not true" might sound better, but it doesn't seem accurate. If an illegal immigrant comes into an ER and is treated right now, the hospital makes every effort to collect payment from them. If not they eat the loss. So say hypothetically we have this public option, the same illegal immigrant still has no insurance, goes to the ER. The hospital tries to recover loss from patient. Same outcome. How is the president incorrect in saying illegals will not be covered?

Because hospitals don't eat losses in the long run. These become part of their future costs to operate and these costs find their way into negotiations with insurance carriers and Medicare, etc. for fee increase down the road.