Author Topic: Ticklers, timing and other starting woes... (Read 11883 times)

MRieck · « **Reply #50 on:** August 15, 2009, 08:56:57 AM »

I've found it is best to slowly fill the carbs when they are completely dry. I've experienced flooding with the CR's and that is even with new float needles in place.

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #51 on:** August 16, 2009, 12:01:36 PM »

Mike- +1 to your experience - with the ticklers the carbs just run fuel out everywhere, now I know why choke levers got invented

Well the carbs went on with the old trick of a tray of boiling water to rest the rubbers in for 30 seconds, quick towel dry and then lots of brute force and swearing! Thankfully being too old and too fat (Thanks Sam ;-)) means I know lots of good swear words and can put a lot of weight behiond this part of the operation!

I tried to start her again on Saturday and she's really really wanting to fire but just not having it.

The next plan of action is to remove the Boyer "power box" from the equation. I'll find a battery and attach that in place of the power box so I can turn the back wheel by hand and get a spark on the cylinder head at the point I expect to get the spark. Main problem with self generating ignitions is that you can't test the spark on the cylinder head without the wheel spinning up fast enough. This will tell me if it's timed right at least.

The really odd thing is that the Boyer ignition runs pot one and four off one coil and pot two/three off the other coil. When I'm trying to start the bike, the exhaust headers on pots one and three get too hot to touch but two and four are just warm....I wonder if Boyer got it wrong!?

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #52 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:56:58 PM »

No,they got it right,same as stock,fuel delivery would be my guess.Bill

Old Scrambler · « **Reply #53 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:38:20 PM »

Are you sure the fuel filters are not restricting flow? +++on getting the timing close or right on.

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #54 on:** August 17, 2009, 04:39:25 AM »

Not so sure on the filters - one filter pair pair of carbs and there looks like plenty of fuel in the bowls. The carbs are lovely and clean so can't see it's that.

I'll try and run without the power box first and then try with no filters (and cross my fingers) :-)

kos · « **Reply #55 on:** August 17, 2009, 07:45:51 AM »

Sounds to me that this Boyer ignition is out of time. you must verify that the engine is getting spark at the correct time, prior to going onto the carbs or fuel delvery to carbs. Put the stock points on it NOW! Set timing at stock, make sure advancer is not stuck and that the pin that locates it... is in the end of crank and advancer seats on that pin. Now try start it. If it starts....throw away that Boyer 'whatever" thing and get a Dyna.

get back to me wth details.

KOS

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #56 on:** August 17, 2009, 09:20:51 AM »

Thanks Mark - I'll let you know what happens when I start breaking the ignition down. I've run Boyers many times before and they always worked great BUT this is the only one I've ever run without a battery and using their self generating "power box". Got to be suspicious....

mcpuffett · « **Reply #57 on:** August 17, 2009, 09:32:06 AM »

Keeping my fingers crossed for you

its about time we heard this bike growl into life

, cheers Mick.

simon#42 · « **Reply #58 on:** August 17, 2009, 10:16:01 AM »

hi simon, i have a new in the box dyna ignition you are welcome to borrow . at least it should eliminate one variable

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #59 on:** August 17, 2009, 12:17:46 PM »

Hi Simon - that's real good of you to offer. Let me try the battery route with the Boyer and if I still draw a blank I may take you up on your kind offer...

Sam Green Racing · « **Reply #60 on:** August 17, 2009, 01:53:26 PM »

Quote from: lordmoonpie on August 17, 2009, 09:20:51 AM

Thanks Mark - I'll let you know what happens when I start breaking the ignition down. I've run Boyers many times before and they always worked great BUT this is the only one I've ever run without a battery and using their self generating "power box". Got to be suspicious....

Simon, if my memory serves me correct, Pete Rhodes told us that for cold starts with the self generated ignition, conection to a battery is needed. We deceided against the self generator and went for the battery and Boyer...no problems at all.

Sam.

turboguzzi · « **Reply #61 on:** August 17, 2009, 09:32:17 PM »

time to use the tips we gave you at the beginning, when you had no jets....

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #62 on:** August 18, 2009, 12:59:46 PM »

Quote from: SamCB750A on August 17, 2009, 01:53:26 PM

Simon, if my memory serves me correct, Pete Rhodes told us that for cold starts with the self generated ignition, conection to a battery is needed. We deceided against the self generator and went for the battery and Boyer...no problems at all.

Sam.

Ooo now that's interesting Sam especially as Pete was the man who suggested the power box! OK so it's disconnected now - all I need is a decent battery and the wife in a good mood so I'll update you all next year LOL

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #63 on:** August 21, 2009, 08:03:02 PM »

LMP CR does not stand for Can't Run!!

,Be easy to try stk ign,but Sam's reply might be all you need.Good Luck,Bill

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #64 on:** September 09, 2009, 07:34:31 AM »

I've reached a conclusion! I'm definitely going mad!!

Took the Boyer Power Box out of the equation and connected in a 12v battery off my Ducati so it's a fairly big one used to cranking over the big twin. I checked every single wire segment to make sure it matches the wiring diagram and there is continuity across every branch and join. All good so far...

Switched the ignition on and turned the back wheel in gear by hand with no. 4 plug on the cylinder head and....nothing! I'd expect a fat blue spark and indeed I was getting a spark when the power box was in place but nothing with the battery alone. I'm getting paranoid now so have a second spare battery on charge to see if it does nothing with that.

I can't go back to points to test this out as I have none of those parts, the bike being a basket case to begin with, plus I suspect it'd be more work to get it there than sorting this out.

I guess I should test the coils next and if they are OK it must be the ignition box itself. I've got a feeling though it's going to be something simple and I just can't see the wood for the trees.

Sam - if you're tuned in, could you get a spark off your Boyer by turning the wheel only by hand? I know I used to on the 350 K4, I'm sure I did, well I think so, perhaps, maybe...

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #65 on:** September 09, 2009, 08:11:18 AM »

Just spoke to Boyer - this ignition requires 200 rpm to switch itself on so hand cranking won't get me a spark. He told me a good trick to test out the box and the coils though - disconnect the wires at the stator and with the ignition on and the plugs grounded, touch the wires and release. The plugs should spark on making and breaking contact.

They all spark correctly, BUT, I noticed my dodgy cylinder, No. 2 is a weaker spark than the others and in all honesty, the sparks are not big fat juicy ones anywhere. I also noticed, which I'd completely forgotten about, that I'm running D9EA plugs, which may make startup worse. So plan now is to get some bog standard D9EAs (prefer Denso x-24es but can't find them in the UK) and try starting with a fully charged battery...the saga continues!

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #66 on:** September 10, 2009, 05:50:00 AM »

LMP,do what 754 said ,put some raw fuel in those cylinders,TG used a syringe,don't matter add fuel eliminate one of 3,make sure idle not too high as TG said,not too much,if it cranks and runs then you know go through those carbs,hell just put it in 1&4 and try ,it will tell you something.Good Luck,Bill

754 · « **Reply #67 on:** September 10, 2009, 07:53:44 AM »

Man you sure got patience, I would not be able to sleep till I got it running..

be looking for a truck/lorry & a big hill..

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #68 on:** September 10, 2009, 10:59:07 AM »

I'm not that patient 754 - just got lots of other projects to distract me

Tomorrow - armed with a can of quick start and the missus we're going for a new starting attempt!

simon#42 · « **Reply #69 on:** September 10, 2009, 11:22:20 AM »

go steady with the easy start if the timing is out you can cause all kinds of trouble . repaired a gsxr 1100 a couple of years ago with two bent rods due to the liberal use of , what is known in the car trade as smack !

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #70 on:** September 11, 2009, 02:07:32 AM »

Quote from: simon#42 on September 10, 2009, 11:22:20 AM

go steady with the easy start if the timing is out you can cause all kinds of trouble . repaired a gsxr 1100 a couple of years ago with two bent rods due to the liberal use of , what is known in the car trade as smack !

Thanks Simon - will do. I'm pertty confident the timing is spot on but one small print issue in the ignition had me worried. It said that if the plug cap suppressors weren't working it could interfere with the elecronics in the digital box and make it run at a default setting of 50 degrees advance! That seems like a really odd default setting.

Still waiting for the plugs - didn't arrive today but a set of plug caps did so if I have to switch them out and try new ones I'll be able to. Think I'll have a go with that straight off for #2 pot...

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #71 on:** September 13, 2009, 03:44:05 AM »

...for anyone who's still interested in this saga LOL!
Following my conversation with Boyer the only thing they could come up with, given that all plugs spark, is that one of the plug cap suppressors was below tolerance and that would be enough to cause electrical interference with the digital ignition causing "random retardation".

So - stripped the whole lot back and check the connections. The worst pot has always been No. 2 and guess what - lowest resistance in the plug cap although it was only 7% down on 5k ohms so still theoretically in working tolerance. No.3 was also down at about 6% under and that's the second worst pot for firing.

So, replaced both plug caps with new ones (they were also new!) and they are within 1.5% tolerance across al four pots now. Also replaced all spark pligs (B9EA) with standard B8EA plugs.

I checked the fuel was getting to the carbs and they all tickle up to overflowing nicely....just got to sweet talk the wife to having a go on the starter this afternoon now. If that fails, I'll mothball the CR and build myself the solo starter I've been planning for some time, so I can check and run without having to wait weeks for "the prevailing conditions to be right" to get some starting help. Fingers crossed...

....oh to cap it all (No pun intended) the CB450 has dropped onto one pot on the new ignition on that one (PVL). So - both bikes out with firing problems, great!!

CBJoe · « **Reply #72 on:** September 13, 2009, 11:54:22 AM »

For those that bookmarked the thread to follow progress

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=58296.msg631193#msg631193

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Author Topic: Ticklers, timing and other starting woes... (Read 11883 times)