Topic: Boosted Applications... Turbo/Supercharger

[754]

I think the 45DCOEs would be the big blocks..

 I was going to mention to the poster a while ago that asked about using an SU. Not every SU will do the job for you, much like not every Mikuni will wirk on a bike.
 The Rivwera SU's are modded, maybe even moreso for turbo use.. Rivera knows them well, been modding them for over 30 years..

[BLUE71TURBO]

Your exactly right 754.  My RIVERA SU carb wasn't drilled for the tickler valve and i installed a larger float bowl.

[brandon]

Goodness gracious, there is a lot of good info and data in this thread! Very educational!

I ride a little CB400F, and would be tickled to run a little boost through it to pep the bike up. Not much...say 6-8psi. To be honest, I'm not too interested in building the heck out of the bottom end, but wouldn't mind opening the head up and using a more appropriate? cam.

I have little experience with motorcycles and carbs for that matter, but do have some experience building bullet proof 4-cylinder 2.0L's with great results. Though the general consensus in this thread seems to side on using pistons to lower the compression ratio, I like to build my motors keeping the compression around the OEM values. Rather than having peaky boost in the higher RPM and experiencing lag, I like boost that comes on early and levels out.

Searching SOHC Forums, pretty much only turns up this thread in regard to turbo charging CB's, which is a shame! For curiosity sake, has anyone here seen a smaller turbo/supercharged CB?

[Bamboozler]

Sweet!  When ya getting started on your boosted 400F project...

I'd enjoy to read/watch a smaller cc CB built with boost.  The one glaring roadblock is the current delivery of the Cb400F or similar bike's generator system. With out researching I'm wondering if there is head room for a fuel pump and other loads on a 400F's generator??  If supercharged or a turbo was able to be mounted high enough (draw through, or size mount blow through) to drain naturally down hill back into the motor a scavenge pump could be omitted.  A fuel pump at the minimum would be needed, could maybe save a bit of current with a HID light?  A Garrett GT12 or similar smaller sized turbo should do the trick to wake up a 400cc size motor.

Not much versed on boosted cams for these bikes but what I've generally read is stock cams seem to work fine for other boosted bikes.  I have generally come across that choosing a cam with little overlap is desirable.  I suppose so you don't blow your pressurized fuel/air mixture out of the combustion chamber and into exhaust while both I/E valves are open.  Maybe someone with some boosted cam experience can chime in.

[brandon]

For starting; how about now! Though homework must be done. I do know that I need to address a couple little oil leaks and run a compression test to see how healthy everything is.

I am not knowledgeable as to which turbo system would be best on an old motorcycle, but I do know I want efficiency and as little of parts as possible and ultimately: it all needs to happen on a college student budget.

The electrical system does pose a problem and I have already researched what I can do with what is there to make it more efficient, such as installing a new wiring harness, increasing lead/ground wire gauge, modern rectifier/regulator, HID headlight, LED blinkers and tail light to name a few.

Since my experience is low with these bikes, I am genuinely curious how to make more juice in the event that the little bike cannot put out enough to keep it's self running.

I like your idea of letting gravity help the system and on that note, all of the electronics are being relocated under the seat, so I will then have all that extra room to play with.

With cams in cars I do know that overlap is a boost killer, so I agree with you. I'm curious though if there is a slightly more agressive cam while keeping overlap
at a minimum? From what I have read over and over is that there is a lot of power to tap in the heads on these bikes. So I'm sure that a little 400f can benefit as well. 

[Bamboozler]

I think you're already on the right path for squeezing out all you can with the electrical system. I think that with switching to LED lights alone you might save enough overhead to run a fuel pump on a regulator (to give the power you need and no more).  The rest would just depend on what you envision your setup to be (if you end up using a oil scavenge pump and or wide band O2 meter and so on).

One thing that might be a bit of a show stopper is "it all needs to happen on a college student budget"...   Nothing usually ends up cheap when you bring boost into the picture.  I say usually because you can be very resourceful and make things happen on a budget.  I guess it largely depends on how you plan on setting things up and what resources you have available to you.

Can't comment much on the cams, I'm not very knowledgeable in that area and haven't researched much in that dept. for 750s let alone 400s.  Hope someone can point you in the right direction.

If you want a good primer on what turbo would match the characteristics of your motor walk yourself through Garrett's turbo tech 101, 102, and 103.  There's a bit of math but nothing too difficult, it walks you through it well. http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech101.html 

[brandon]

I hope I'm on the right path. Turbo...feels like the right path.

With the electrical system, I'll have to do some before/after test taking with my multi-meter so I have some comparison at just how much juice I've freed up during this engine harness/electrical upgrade process. That is the first thing. Get the gremlins taken care of with the electrical. Next is engine gremlins and send the head off to someone to work some magic.

The regulator/rectifier unit that I'm looking at can be found here: http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/rr24-regulator-rectifier-604-0.html . Though, before pulling the trigger on one of these units, I need to know what I'm paying for - aside from combining two systems into one unit.

With what I envision...that is where people like you come in!  Because my only experience is with cars, all I know of is using wide band O2's.

I wouldn't consider a college student budget as being a show stopper . I'm not the end-all of resourcefulness, but I do know how to improvise here and there to cut costs. Even though I'm on Oahu, we do have many wrecking yards here. There are almost 1.5 cars per person on Oahu!!! That is a lot! So...wrecking yards, craigslist, eBay etc. It will take a little time to compile parts, and I'm even considering taking a few welding classes, since this is something I've wanted to learn anyhow.

Thank you for the link; very informative.

[Bamboozler]

If you look forward to jumping into a fabrication project this would be fun one to take on.  If you're looking for a just a performance increase with out the hassle jumping up to a bigger bike would probably be the answer.  But from what I've read it sounds like you're in it for the fun n' games of the build as equally and for the performance reward of that comes with it.  I'm not familiar with the CB400 motor but I'm thinking some mild boost should be within it's means.  I haven't ever come across read about a glass jaw on them anywhere prior. 

If you haven't already, check out MRieck here on the boards.  Excellent head work reputation and many satisfied customers.

I like your idea regarding the welding class. If you plan correctly you could even hit custom parts for you build at class.. You get the welding training and maybe free run of the welders to tackle what ever bracket, manifold, piping you may want to build.  Not a bad way to score some time on a expensive TIG welder, or MIG with out having to invest in one; kinda like renting one with free training included. Though it is nice to have access to one nearby the bike at times (tacking in brackets and pipes into place); MIG at least. That might be were someone can help out or maybe you already have access to a 110v or similar?

Unless anyone else has experience to speak of with that reg/rec it looks like it would fit the bill.  If its rated for a CB750 it should be sufficient for your CB400.  Not sure if the plug would mate but it doesn't seem to matter in your case as you're rewiring the works anyways.

If you do decide to pull the trigger on the project do make a project thread, I'd be interested to see it progress.  There are plenty of folks on this board that can help field any question that may arise.

[brandon]

Never welded before, so I may as well learn. To be honest, I get a little jealous when I see people on this site mocking up and making their own parts. Jealous in a 'that is bad ass, I can do that...' type of way. You're on the same page with the welding class(es). I'm thinking I may be able pay to learn as well as use good equipment that I normally couldn't afford - while making something...like the exhaust system, intake manifold, welding flanges for the turbo/waste gate/BOV and other little bits.

I have not checked out Mrieck, but will shortly to get an estimate. Thanks again for the tip.

With a manifold, I would probably like to TIG weld it considering I've had good experience with 304SS manifolds. Super robust, don't rust, and nice looking once they have been heated up a few times. Please...if anyone has a better option or if 304SS is over-kill, let me know and why.

I don't have access to a 110V welder. I don't know anyone who welds. Everyone here surfs. If you need me to find you a surfer, I can do that. 

Will do on making a thread. It will be a long process. First thing first is wiring, frame, suspension, rear swing arm, engine gremlins. Though, I don't feel it's premature to discuss turbo applications. 

[Bamboozler]

Sounds like ya got your work cut out for ya.  Looking forward to seeing what comes of your bike!

In regards to selecting a stainless material for the manifold I do believe a 321 or 347 are best suited for the high heat stressing that comes with turbos and would be the preferred choice.  304 will work, many headers have been made with it.  Its less expensive than the former, and scotch-brites up much easier with its higher chromium content.  Steel will work but not as purdy without a coating, but for working on a budget has its place.  I went with 304, I'll know over time if it holds up against cracks while supporting the weight of the turbo that its holding. I think you aren't going down the wrong path with the 304, go with 321 if ya want some more insurance, mild steel if you're on a tight budget.

Not premature to talk turbos, it would be the cornerstone of your project too fun not to talk about the power adders.

[brandon]

I don't remember this being mentioned or asked, but are people designing their systems with vacuum being pulled out of the crank case and valve cover?

In a car I would do those two things and run the lines to a baffled oil catch where the lines would merge with check valves, then a singular line to the intake manifold. I would assume that a tiny turbo on a tiny engine would benefit from this as well.

[Bamboozler]

Check out the thread in this forum "Crankcase vacum for CB750", it's relevant to your interests.    Turboguzzi will be testing/dynoing a similar setup on his race bike soon and hopefully giving a heads up as to what his results are.

[brandon]

Thanks for the link. From what I have read, there isn't anything too meaty in there. In my opinion, I cannot see why a boosted engine would NOT benefit from having a ventilated crank case AND valve cover - even N/A running high compression. If there is too much positive pressure within the engine, then it is basically working against its own means. Like running into the wind, when you can turn around, and run with the wind! 

I've noticed that when some people install the catch can setup (my first choice) on their engines, the don't put it as high as they possibly can. The higher you can get it, the less likely you are of blowing oil out of the crank case. Though, that leads into the other issue in that you want to tap the crank case somewhere relatively high as well, so the pressure generated by the crank and downward stroke of the pistons isn't blowing oil out. Tap high and use check valves, mount the can high - making sure it is baffled at least once, and pull the vacuum from the valve cover and crank case with the intake manifold.

In the intake manifold use a diagonal cut tube with the cut side facing down stream so you can utilize that awesome law of fluid dynamics

I have noticed on a lot of newer aftermarket turbo'd cars that tuners are even tapping the valve cover 2-3 times and the crank case 2 times for vacuum, as their turbo systems are creating lots of pressure. Though, I had a 500whp 2.0L and was fine tapping once for each respectively.

Aside from all of this, you are a knowledgeable person, so I'm probably preaching to the choir! 

[Bamboozler]

You make some good points in your post and it’s interesting to hear what you have seen and done in this subject.  Nice power out of your 2.0l too!  Please don't hold any back any experiences/knowledge; I'm constantly picking up great bits of knowledge/info from everyone that contributes to these forums. If I had a penny for every time I hit the search button…

I never implemented more than a catch can with my car and that was the last boosted toy I had to play with (2006). Though it was something I wanted to look into, at higher boost I had a white cloud of blow by (compression was solid).  After the car went to heaven and was parted out I haven't had much interest in the scene and haven't been on related forums reading.  I don't have any first hand results in adding a venturi type of crank ventilation but understand the principals. As noted in the other thread I have a friend that added a venturi exhaust system recently, but didn’t have a simple way to measure its effect.  The best that could be determined is that it was working and pulling a vacuum by what accumulated in his catch can.  I have seen quite a few turbo tuners add valve cover and crank vent line (4G63 mitsu background), but can't say I've seen much data/results, nor have I asked how it worked out; haven't investigate these systems much.  I agree with you and the others in the crankcase vent thread that there is a performance gain to be had by adding some type of ventilation/evac; the principal and numbers speak for themselves.  As you say, I can't see why a boost or N/A motor wouldn't benefit from adding such a system.  It’s a relatively easy to implement mod, and if it can sneak out a positive gain in performance how sweet is that!

The idea of such a system helping the piston rings seal better while the motor is under boost is a bonus too. I haven't been able to study if I'm blowing excessive smoke out of the valve cover vent tube or not while under boost; my mirrors can't pick up that detail. I haven’t seen any lingering oil smoke clouds left behind me so that’s promising.  I need a buddy to ride next to me and study what's happening.  I do see a bit of blow by at idle out of the valve cover vent tube, but nothing that seems too excessive.  All in all I would be interested in seeing some results from the dyno and let the numbers do the talking.  Other than the dyno and or 1/4 mile (if you're really consistent), I can't think of any other way to gauge the performance of a venturi system.  I guess there is a smoking under accel vs not smoking after senario by which to gauge (blow by solution).  There’s also the train of thought which Turboguzzi’s picture of Rossi Valentino’s motor points out… if his team of engineers are using it.. I’d be fairly confident that you wouldn’t be wasting your time adding it to your own racer.  I couldn't think of how it would apply to Valentino's motor and not to another, other than a failure to implement it correctly.

[BLUE71TURBO]

Goodness gracious, there is a lot of good info and data in this thread! Very educational!

I ride a little CB400F, and would be tickled to run a little boost through it to pep the bike up. Not much...say 6-8psi. To be honest, I'm not too interested in building the heck out of the bottom end, but wouldn't mind opening the head up and using a more appropriate? cam.

I have little experience with motorcycles and carbs for that matter, but do have some experience building bullet proof 4-cylinder 2.0L's with great results. Though the general consensus in this thread seems to side on using pistons to lower the compression ratio, I like to build my motors keeping the compression around the OEM values. Rather than having peaky boost in the higher RPM and experiencing lag, I like boost that comes on early and levels out.

Searching SOHC Forums, pretty much only turns up this thread in regard to turbo charging CB's, which is a shame! For curiosity sake, has anyone here seen a smaller turbo/supercharged CB?

  Arn't all the honda's here CB'S ??   The reason for not turbocharging any of the smaller cc'd engines is the strenght of the bottom ends. Also there is no aftermarket parts available to fix that situation. 

[Stert]

ok ok, so i am new to tinkering with these bikes, and anything carburetted in general. i have a basic understanding of turbo settups for car application.

is there a resource here or elsewhere that could explain the whole turbo settup on a bike with a carburetter?

just trying to learn. and im looking for a project bike....so maybe ill end up learning as i go.

[BLUE71TURBO]

 Turbo's are turbo's no matter what you install them on, blow through or draw through. I recommend for all who are interested in
turbocharging, supercharging, or nitrous oxide on motorcycles is to buy a book by JOE HAILE.  It's full of info and great pictures.   
 It's well worth the investment.  For reference, here is what the book looks like.  The price is $ 19.95  they have a miss print on thier site

    http://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-Turbocharging-Supercharging-Nitrous-Oxide/dp/1884313078

[Stert]

thanks. pretty much exactly what i was looking for.

[brandon]

I don't have the means to test the differences either but it's safe to say that there are benefits to be had by running a catch can/vacuum setup.

I had a thought this weekend- in cars, the height ofa valve cover to the highest point in an engine bay isn't that substantial. I have seen people fill their catches rather quickly because the valve cover vacuum hose isn't vertical enough to have gravity work on keeping the oil where it needs to be.

Bikes are vertical allowing for more angle with the vacuum hoses to the catch can. I then thought why noy make a custom mount catch can that mounts between the triple? Plenty of space, and high enough to where it will not fill with gobs of oil from the valve cover.

[Randakk]

Here's the way to go...no frills, super simple, brutally effective Rootes-type blower with draw-thru ("wet") system:

[youtube=425,350]DmCnS69QdDw[/youtube]

An inline-4 is even easier than the Boxer GL1000 engine.  My current project is a blown CBX.  The CBX is basically a 750 DOHC engine with 2 more cylinder hung on the end.

[754]

Welcome abord, you may find this site entertaining. Nice to see another Weber fan on here,  saw your trailer & bikes at the Bonneville GP in 2008.

[BLUE71TURBO]

  Yes, welcome Randakk !   Can ya post some pictures of your motorcycles ?  Also what is the manufacture of the blower you
          are using ?

[Sam Green Racing]

You are lazy Jon www.randakks.com

Sam.

[Sam Green Racing]

Welcome Randakk, seen your work before on the naked wing site
Your red RC003 is to die for.

Sam.

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Turbo's are turbo's no matter what you install them on, blow through or draw through. I recommend for all who are interested in
turbocharging, supercharging, or nitrous oxide on motorcycles is to buy a book by JOE HAILE.  It's full of info and great pictures.   
 It's well worth the investment.  For reference, here is what the book looks like.  The price is $ 19.95  they have a miss print on thier site

    http://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-Turbocharging-Supercharging-Nitrous-Oxide/dp/1884313078

Probably still worth it,but only 10 used ones available starting @ $50.00!,Bill