Author Topic: Boosted Applications... Turbo/Supercharger  (Read 58982 times)

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Offline j squared

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2009, 02:35:30 PM »
Thats pretty trick, home brew projects always impress me more than something bought in a kit. Interesting idea with the vacuum tubes going to the float bowls, Ill bet that makes the seals there critical huh?

Offline scartail

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2009, 03:20:54 PM »
Bam, you're using stock carbs right?
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2009, 10:35:10 PM »


I'd appreciate a pic of this system actually on the bike without the tank. Gives me a sense of space in the frame and under the tank.

Looks good so far.
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2009, 10:54:46 PM »
Also...

I'd like Mrieck's and Sam's opinions on chamber design and piston shape.

How high CR can this engine stand with boost and still not have an o-ringed block?

Would larger valves be too much?

You guys seem to be the porting and chamber shape experts so....
'48 HD Panhead - Exxon Valdez
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'78 Honda CB750K - Mavrik
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Offline NitroHunter

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2009, 09:59:42 AM »
I ran 30+ psi boost on a 6.8:1  736cc WITHOUT O ringed sleeves or heavy duty studs, just an .043" copper head gasket. There were no apparent compression related issues when I tore it down for inspection. The stock flat top pistons sat about .125" in the hole.
All the 970 and larger motors I've had were all O ringed. Some saw 30lbs boost. All had big studs and copper head gaskets. Some pistons had domes, some slightly dished.

For what it's worth, here's my unsolicited .02.  ;D
As you know, to drop the compression with big bore pistons, a flat top or dish in the crown is required. I was told back in the day that the raised edges of the turbo pistons brought the squish band back (with those heads not bore matched) and the dish promoted turbulence.
Modern high swirl chamber design is pretty flat and small, and so are the pistons. Notice how much timing can be pulled from an efficient engine.

That being said, we still use hemi chambers, flat top pistons, and LOTS of timing in our fuel car.  ::)

Back in the Formula 1 turbo days, intake and exhaust valves were surprisingly close in size.

Once the air tries to go sonic past these little valve seats, it looks like our ports cross sectional area will become the limiting mega-boost flow factor. And that big bend doesn't help much either...
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2009, 10:31:43 AM »
Thank you Nitro.... just what I wanted to hear.

So do you think if I buy another engine and o-ring it with a solid copper gasket I could push 50+lbs?

I'm half tempted to say f-it and try it anyway with an inline dual turbo set-up. But you know, cases and heads are getting harder and harder to come by.

Opinions on your ideal set-up for serious strip power? I'm going to convert to FI anyway so having a base point helps me no matter what.
'48 HD Panhead - Exxon Valdez
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'78 Honda CB750K - Mavrik
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Offline scartail

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2009, 10:44:22 AM »
30+, 50+... Wow!!!

The thread title should be retitled, Ungodly & Mad Power Turbo Applications.

I'm only running 9 psi in my car. I can't imagine 30+, though it has been done. But not my a daily beater like mine.

What's a good boost/hp goal for a daily 550, non-competitive but fun.
'89 Hawk GT, newly acquired, daily beater...
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2009, 10:54:23 AM »
8-12psi should rock it silly.

Maybe look into a T2 or even smaller with an adjustable wastegate. Should get you every lb you need and more.
'48 HD Panhead - Exxon Valdez
'78 CB550K - Fokker CB.3
'78 Honda CB750K - Mavrik
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2009, 11:39:36 AM »
I ran 30+ psi boost on a 6.8:1  736cc WITHOUT O ringed sleeves or heavy duty studs, just an .043" copper head gasket. There were no apparent compression related issues when I tore it down for inspection. The stock flat top pistons sat about .125" in the hole.
All the 970 and larger motors I've had were all O ringed. Some saw 30lbs boost. All had big studs and copper head gaskets. Some pistons had domes, some slightly dished.

For what it's worth, here's my unsolicited .02.  ;D
As you know, to drop the compression with big bore pistons, a flat top or dish in the crown is required. I was told back in the day that the raised edges of the turbo pistons brought the squish band back (with those heads not bore matched) and the dish promoted turbulence.
Modern high swirl chamber design is pretty flat and small, and so are the pistons. Notice how much timing can be pulled from an efficient engine.

That being said, we still use hemi chambers, flat top pistons, and LOTS of timing in our fuel car.  ::)

Back in the Formula 1 turbo days, intake and exhaust valves were surprisingly close in size.

Once the air tries to go sonic past these little valve seats, it looks like our ports cross sectional area will become the limiting mega-boost flow factor. And that big bend doesn't help much either...

I pretty much have to agree with everything Nitro Hunter said. One big difference in modern engines is you can use a dished piston (a very good design) in a NA engine and still get high compression ratios because of the small chambers. Plenty of valve and port area in a modern head too. You don't have to do anything to the intake or exhaust tract in a busa when you turbo it. Some Yosh Stage 1 cams are about all I'd recommend with that engine.
 I think an oversize intake valve/opened seat ID with some mild porting would work well with a turbo on the 750. A 34 mm intake valve would work very well IMO. I am not a turbo or supercharger guy but I'd say 8:1 with 10 to 12 lbs would be a fun street ride and wouldn't be completely dead off boost.
 
 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 06:34:37 PM by MRieck »
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2009, 12:20:17 PM »
Would you be interested in working on two engines then?

I'm looking to make a street/strip ride for daily riding with some weekend fighting. And then a total strip bike with as much guts and I can make.

I'm not looking for any deals either, I just want it to be as good as it can get. You are definately the CB guy for porting so...

Figure I'd be adding a billet block from your ideas as well.

smaller turbo to help spool up the larger one, maybe a gear primary drive as opposed to the chains? Lots of fab I know. Might not even be possible.

I'm a sucker for punishment what can i say?
'48 HD Panhead - Exxon Valdez
'78 CB550K - Fokker CB.3
'78 Honda CB750K - Mavrik
'80 Yamaha XS850G - Kanibalistik
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Offline scartail

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2009, 01:00:54 PM »
***Turbo related***

Speaking of hogging stuff out from billet.
Check this out.

Though a XS650... This guy machined his own cylinder heads, welded a custom frame, etc.
http://www.xs650.org.au/kev%27s%20turbo.htm


'89 Hawk GT, newly acquired, daily beater...
'76 CB550, was my daily beater... my cafe project...
'72 Yamaha R5, newly acquired project... donated to my buddy...
'67 Suzuki T20, still working on her too... Currently in pieces...

Offline MRieck

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2009, 06:45:31 PM »
Would you be interested in working on two engines then?

I'm looking to make a street/strip ride for daily riding with some weekend fighting. And then a total strip bike with as much guts and I can make.

I'm not looking for any deals either, I just want it to be as good as it can get. You are definitely the CB guy for porting so...

Figure I'd be adding a billet block from your ideas as well.

smaller turbo to help spool up the larger one, maybe a gear primary drive as opposed to the chains? Lots of fab I know. Might not even be possible.

I'm a sucker for punishment what can i say?
A supercharger and a turbo would be the hot ticket. Tons of torque from the get go with the supercharger but lots of top end with the turbo. Oh boy....can of worms. ;) The heavy duty primary chains are available again (plenty of them) ....no need for a primary gear drive. ;) Havoc....I'd be happy to accommodate you any way I can when it comes to work. I'd just add I have a group of friends that really know how to make parts....and bikes run too. I'm blessed to know these people and call them friends.
  Mike
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 06:49:48 PM by MRieck »
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2009, 10:19:33 PM »
I'd send a PM but it seems fitting for everyone to see how close this community is.

You don't know me. Or my skill or knowledge level. Yet you've extended your hand in skill and friendship over a common item.

You're welcome in my shop any day of the week.

I can build a KZ/ZX... or a Ford... better than anyone in my area. But sadly my love of the CB is short lived. I've had it for a little over a decade and never even rode it further than down the block before tearing it apart.

More and more I see people riding their bikes on this site and I get itchy. Yet I stop myself from tearing into it with a grinder and welder for fear of #$%*ing it up.

Thanks again.

Havoc.
'48 HD Panhead - Exxon Valdez
'78 CB550K - Fokker CB.3
'78 Honda CB750K - Mavrik
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Offline Bamboozler

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2009, 07:08:07 PM »
Interesting idea with the vacuum tubes going to the float bowls, Ill bet that makes the seals there critical huh?

Can't take credit for the vac tube idea, all of the turbo carburetor platforms do have some form of manifold reference to their fuel bowls to allow the system to work.  You are correct on the sealing being critical. When I first plumbed up the fuel system and fired up the pump the regulator was set to 20ish psi.. I had a nice little fuel water fall  ;D.  Since then I set the base pressure to 3psi, replaced the O-rings on the fuel tubes that connect the carbs, and am waiting on float bowl gaskets for two bowls that were weeping at ~13 psi.

Bam, you're using stock carbs right?

Yes I'm giving the stock 78 CB750F PD42A's a try to see if they'll work out.  Not as ideal as a constant velocity type carbs, but I thought I'd see if they would work.  During the end stages of the intake fab I came across a thread here that was started by cafebob which detailed his adventure in fitting up a set of 85 CB650SC Nighthawk CV carb for use with his CB750 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=28898.0).  I since then acquired a set of those CB650SC carbs and have them in my back pocket in case there's a deal breaker with the cable slide stockers that I'm currently using.  I would have to replace the intake's runners with larger O.D. tubes to accommodate the larger diameter inlets on the 85 Nighthawk carbs, or fab up an adapter of sorts to make use of them.

I'd appreciate a pic of this system actually on the bike without the tank. Gives me a sense of space in the frame and under the tank.

The included pics are the best I have at the moment, next time I visit the bike I'll snap a pic to get the tank-less top view that you are looking for.  I can say the fuel pump is almost touching the battery box, but you can disconnect the pump and regulator from the intake and set them aside (keeping the fuel lines connected) and remove the intake to get at the carbs for removal.







Enjoying the exchange of info regarding the building of these motors for boost, taking notes. 8)
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Offline 754

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2009, 11:39:18 PM »
I think I may have found a solution, for extra charging capacity on 750s.

 I have been thinking of running a Nighthawk/CBX style alternator off the left side of a 750, which has a few problems with clearance, mounting etc..

 So I came up with a new plan...


 Mount it on the right side, drive will be off points area, alt will sit in the notch above the clutch.. real good place for it..

 A few possibilities for the  belt drive;.. extension plate will have to be used;

 Between points plate and case, (would require notching case)

 Outboard of the points .



 The drive will come off the points area to the alt pulley, which will have a support bearing and shaft, leading inboard to the alt bracket, mounted off the clutch cover bolts.

 I think this could work...
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2009, 09:56:28 AM »
What about those who want to use a magneto/distributor drive?

Might free up some amps?

But then you cannot use the magneto drive if you put the alternator drive off that side.

Hmmm...
'48 HD Panhead - Exxon Valdez
'78 CB550K - Fokker CB.3
'78 Honda CB750K - Mavrik
'80 Yamaha XS850G - Kanibalistik
09 XL883L - No Name

Offline CaféElite

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2009, 11:47:18 AM »
I was at a local swap meet this past weekend and noticed a turbo setting off to the side of a booth. After some haggling I got the turbo, oil cooler, intake manifold and header for 50 bucks. I dont have a ton of experiance with turbos but I figured the price was well worth it (Yes\No?). It has no in\out or side to side shaft play and spins.

I really dont know much about turbos but I have a couple 550s so why not have one N/A and the other turbo. The guy said he thinks it was on a CB750 at some point so while the header and intake wont work for me I figured it would be an ok templet. After reading this thread and seeing the pics maybe the design I have is not the best choice though. I probably wont start this project tell next summer but I will be keeping an eye on this thread and hopefully in the future be able to contribute to it.

Here is the info off the turbo: Garrett A/R .48 M.84

Here is what I got BTW..
CB550's
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Offline scartail

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2009, 12:25:08 PM »
CafeElite, 50$ good deal.  Think about all the engineering work already done.

It looks like turbo sits right below the exhaust ports. Going by the "A/R .48 M.84", is the turbo a T3?

I don't think it will be a biggy for you to hack it up and reweld for a 550.
'89 Hawk GT, newly acquired, daily beater...
'76 CB550, was my daily beater... my cafe project...
'72 Yamaha R5, newly acquired project... donated to my buddy...
'67 Suzuki T20, still working on her too... Currently in pieces...

Offline j squared

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2009, 12:34:05 PM »
Definitely looks like a T3 based on the size of the flange and the exhaust housing. You can probably find out exact specs by googling the part number, usually stamped onto a small plate attached to the center housing.  Look for a number that resembles "409080-5009" .

Offline scartail

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2009, 12:43:31 PM »
Bam, you're using stock carbs right?

Yes I'm giving the stock 78 CB750F PD42A's a try to see if they'll work out.  Not as ideal as a constant velocity type carbs, but I thought I'd see if they would work.  During the end stages of the intake fab I came across a thread here that was started by cafebob which detailed his adventure in fitting up a set of 85 CB650SC Nighthawk CV carb for use with his CB750 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=28898.0).  I since then acquired a set of those CB650SC carbs and have them in my back pocket in case there's a deal breaker with the cable slide stockers that I'm currently using.  I would have to replace the intake's runners with larger O.D. tubes to accommodate the larger diameter inlets on the 85 Nighthawk carbs, or fab up an adapter of sorts to make use of them.

Looks like alot of promise there. It seems the biggest advantage is the sealing/pressuring capablities, atleast for forced induction. Am I right to believe that?

I wonder how they bolt up against a 550.
'89 Hawk GT, newly acquired, daily beater...
'76 CB550, was my daily beater... my cafe project...
'72 Yamaha R5, newly acquired project... donated to my buddy...
'67 Suzuki T20, still working on her too... Currently in pieces...

Offline scartail

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2009, 01:03:26 PM »
Definitely looks like a T3 based on the size of the flange and the exhaust housing. You can probably find out exact specs by googling the part number, usually stamped onto a small plate attached to the center housing.  Look for a number that resembles "409080-5009" .

It would be hard to tell from the flange, without scale. Both T2 and T3 have rectangular flanges.

I run a straight T3 in my 1.8L acura.  I wonder if 750cc has enough to get it spooling.
'89 Hawk GT, newly acquired, daily beater...
'76 CB550, was my daily beater... my cafe project...
'72 Yamaha R5, newly acquired project... donated to my buddy...
'67 Suzuki T20, still working on her too... Currently in pieces...

Offline j squared

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2009, 01:51:42 PM »
Definitely looks like a T3 based on the size of the flange and the exhaust housing. You can probably find out exact specs by googling the part number, usually stamped onto a small plate attached to the center housing.  Look for a number that resembles "409080-5009" .

It would be hard to tell from the flange, without scale. Both T2 and T3 have rectangular flanges.

Youre right, but I'll betcha ;)

Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2009, 03:39:43 PM »
I wonder if 750cc has enough to get it spooling.

It's got it.... but the lag would be disgusting. Especially in stock 736cc's.
'48 HD Panhead - Exxon Valdez
'78 CB550K - Fokker CB.3
'78 Honda CB750K - Mavrik
'80 Yamaha XS850G - Kanibalistik
09 XL883L - No Name

Offline Bamboozler

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2009, 11:03:20 PM »
Hey Havoc, got your pics, see below, I think these two should give what you want to see, room below, room above without tank. 

It's got it.... but the lag would be disgusting. Especially in stock 736cc's.

Uh oh, what's you're thoughts on full boost RPM? :)  Based on a totally different motor I'm seeing a T3 60ish A/R on the comp, small on the turbine spooling at 5-6k, think that's in the ball park? Much more top end play than quick on its feet off a green light.  But nothing too sluggish to get out of the hole with 9:1 stock compression.  I hope its not too stupid high of an RPM before full boost is there.  When did your T2 hit 21psi on your GPZ750 when you pinned the throttle from a stop or slow roll (for a ball park comparison)?

CafeElite - If the turbo is healthy you scored a mighty fine deal with turbo alone!  Too bad the exhaust and intake plumbing doesn't bolt up, you'd be more than half way home to boosted CB with $50 into the game. ;D

754 - I think the plan you have would be neat to see it fabbed up.  I would like to see an internal solution for my bike (using the stator/rotor area) due to my intake/exhaust plumbing (I could re-plumb I suppose).  However I think the internal route is the steepest hill to climb to make it a reality.  The external method like you suggested gives you much more flexibility.
'78 CB750F Turbo, 101 rwhp @ 8 PSI (Project thread)
2007 Yamaha FZ1
'78 CB750F basket case crying for a resto
'78 XL250S
'78 Suk GS750E
Digital Ignition project (Project thread)

Offline 754

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Re: Turbo Applications... i.e. What Model Turbo & Draw System
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2009, 08:08:59 AM »
There was a time on here, where even talking about running a Magneto, would have a few posters jumping all over you, telling how bad it was!


 Running an alternator off points side will screw me up as far as running my mag, but it may help someone else, As your point or Electronic ignition, can be run on wither the inside or outside of it, there is still option...

You can still run an upright mag/dist..

Maybe could run a mag forward and belt drive it and the alt off the same pulley.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way