Topic: what do you with the breather hose when you install pod filters?

[j squared]

Great thread, would read again.

[razor02097]

how the heck did we get from "what to do with the breather hose" to treehuggers and making a mushroom fireball


what to do with breather hose

common: stick a filter on the end and be done with it.

creative: fabricate a system to keep function of breather system.

Personally I would like the creative way for a few reasons.  #1 you never have to change a breather filter  #2 you have a slight vacuum on the crank case which I have read frees up power. #3 it keeps the blow by in the system to exit via exhaust keeping in compliance with the EPA.

[IHWillys]

...
creative: fabricate a system to keep function of breather system.

Personally I would like the creative way for a few reasons.  #1 you never have to change a breather filter  #2 you have a slight vacuum on the crank case which I have read frees up power. #3 it keeps the blow by in the system to exit via exhaust keeping in compliance with the EPA.

#4, you wouldn't have the small mess that the oily fumes leave behind on whatever is nearby the outlet..

Ken

[BVCB650]

how the heck did we get from "what to do with the breather hose" to treehuggers and making a mushroom fireball


what to do with breather hose

common: stick a filter on the end and be done with it.

creative: fabricate a system to keep function of breather system.

Personally I would like the creative way for a few reasons.  #1 you never have to change a breather filter  #2 you have a slight vacuum on the crank case which I have read frees up power. #3 it keeps the blow by in the system to exit via exhaust keeping in compliance with the EPA.

Did you read the whole thread? Some were talking about polluting the air with blow-by gases and.....evolution took it's course.

[mystic_1]

BTW, K0 750s have no breather recirculation from the factory, the tube extends down to the swingarm pivot area and is (as stock) capped with a little (vented?) plug that most people probably lost right away, as I've never seen one in person.  Part of the maintenance schedule is to pull the cap and drain any fluid.


mystic_1

[BVCB650]

BTW, K0 750s have no breather recirculation from the factory, the tube extends down to the swingarm pivot area and is (as stock) capped with a little (vented?) plug that most people probably lost right away, as I've never seen one in person.  Part of the maintenance schedule is to pull the cap and drain any fluid.


mystic_1

Gasoline gets "distilled" and collects down there. Mine was choc full of the nastyest stuff you can imagine. Ours goes back to the box, and some separate plumbing routes those condensed liquids to a little collection box for removal.

[razor02097]

so whats better polluting the air or the ground/sewer?

just stoking the fire 

[masonryman]

I didn't read all of that so if I missed some one else point this out please excuse me

I just switched a bike to pods and plan on running a canister like we run for blow by on karts, it is just a can with a baffle and a small filter and a drain. as the gas cools it will collect in the can, it will require an occasional draining.

Mark

[TwoTired]

I wonder if one could rig up a system to distribute the blowby gasses through a restrictor valve (to limit vacuum draw) then to a splitter and into all four carbs (so as to maintain balance) via the sync adapter ports.  Sorta a poor-mans-PCV system.

mystic_1

I like the thought.  But, the sync ports have the vacuum level to draw fuel from the jets.  Any loss of vacuum there will lean the mixture from the carbs.
I think that's too sensitive an insertion point without revamping the carb metering to compensate.

Besides, you don't really want to put negative pressure in the crankcase, as that would actually increase the blowby.

Ahead of the carb inlet is the right place for this function.
I have an old K&N single filter replacement for the stock filter box (out in the part piles).  It has a fitting for the engine breather just between the filter element and the carb inlet plenum.  (Fits 500/550s)

I know, the sync ports are down stream from, and quite close to, the venturi area so they're under quite a bit of vacuum, which is why I suggested a restrictor of some sort just like you use with sync gauges.  I guess you'd want individual restrictors, though, so you could cancel out any variations? That starts to get pretty damn complicated and if it was really a good idea someone would have come up with it by now I suppose lol.

I guess you could plumb little lines into each pod filter but once again, too complicated unless you're going for the Rube Goldberg look.

mystic_1

I need to correct an earlier error in assumption.  Upon further research, negative crankcase pressure has been used in other engines to improve piston ring seal and reduce blowby gasses.  These engines certainly differed in design from the SOHC4.  But, it seems the principle is sound if the implementation is correct.

Still, upsetting the vacuum presented at the jet ports in the carbs will certainly effect their delivery capability, and thus the A/F ratio.
Further, is it possible/even likely that at high RPM, positive pressure in the crankcase occurs.  I read some articles that measured 30 PSI in the crankcase (VW Boxer engines.)  Wouldn't injecting such pressures into the intake duct of the SOHC4 reduce the vacuum and fuel draw in the carbs?

[BVCB650]

Perhaps. I don't think anyone wants to go down the reduced vacuum route at any cost.

[TwoTired]

I have to agree that the blow by can't be horrid.

Based on what evidence?  Please share.

Not by comparison to many things.

You mean like nuclear fallout?
I dare you... Try NOT breathing. ....Even when your dosimeter is screaming.
"Chips of plutonium twinkling in every lung"... - Kate Bush

You'll probably do worse spilling gas to fill your lawnmower.

How is this not complete speculation?  But, it is agreed the gas evaporation is yet another factor to consider from our polluting/poisoning vehicles.

Anyway, the point is taken about trying to be as clean as possible. I think we do a piss poor job taking care of the planet as is. I'd imagine having one cylinder not firing would be worse, unburned fuel heated and vaporized then shot into the atmosphere.

Glad you think this way.  I know we (humans) can't fix everything at once.  But, I don't think we should be making things worse when it can be avoided without much effort.  If people do so even knowing they shouldn't, they should at the very least be aware they are doing so.  And, I really don't care if that make them feel bad, as others are (or will be) suffering far worse from their actions.

Yesterday, I read a report about adding a crankcase breather to a diesel engine.  It seems this system is "new" technology to some Diesel manufacturers.  The device reduced total hydrocarbon emissions (among a host of other crankcase pollutants) from the entire engine, exhaust included, by 50%.

To me, this made the 20-40% improvement figure published in the Honda manual even more credible.

[NickC]

I pour my used oil down the sink, is this bad 

[BVCB650]

I pour my used oil down the sink, is this bad 

I used to pour my used oil down along side the barn siding to kill the weeds. It worked too.

[BVCB650]

I have to agree that the blow by can't be horrid.

Based on what evidence?  Please share.

Not by comparison to many things.

You mean like nuclear fallout?
I dare you... Try NOT breathing. ....Even when your dosimeter is screaming.
"Chips of plutonium twinkling in every lung"... - Kate Bush

You'll probably do worse spilling gas to fill your lawnmower.

How is this not complete speculation?  But, it is agreed the gas evaporation is yet another factor to consider from our polluting/poisoning vehicles.

Anyway, the point is taken about trying to be as clean as possible. I think we do a piss poor job taking care of the planet as is. I'd imagine having one cylinder not firing would be worse, unburned fuel heated and vaporized then shot into the atmosphere.

Glad you think this way.  I know we (humans) can't fix everything at once.  But, I don't think we should be making things worse when it can be avoided without much effort.  If people do so even knowing they shouldn't, they should at the very least be aware they are doing so.  And, I really don't care if that make them feel bad, as others are (or will be) suffering far worse from their actions.

Yesterday, I read a report about adding a crankcase breather to a diesel engine.  It seems this system is "new" technology to some Diesel manufacturers.  The device reduced total hydrocarbon emissions (among a host of other crankcase pollutants) from the entire engine, exhaust included, by 50%.

To me, this made the 20-40% improvement figure published in the Honda manual even more credible.

On my diesel Jeep Liberty, they run the blowby back through the engine. Turns the oil jet black after 20 miles.

[TwoTired]

On my diesel Jeep Liberty, they run the blowby back through the engine. Turns the oil jet black after 20 miles.

An assumed cause and effect, likely erroneous.  How do you know the blowby is the cause?
Some formulations of oil simply change color due to getting hot, multivis oil additives, if I recall correctly, changes from translucent amber to translucent black, with no deleterious effects.  Heat changes the light reflection/filtering behavior but not the properties that the engine needs for lubrication.
If the oil takes on soot particles (or any particulates), it is no longer translucent, whatever the color.

This, BTW, is why testimonial claims about a product often have little value, as they are not based on science or repeatable test results/definitions.

My cousin's, friend's, daughter got some of that oil on the back of her ear and got pregnant the next day.  Therefore, the oil must be a good pregnancy aid.
Perfectly rationalized cause and effect, right? 

[NickC]

Route the breather hose directly into your helmet, inhale, fart. Effective for filtering.......

[BVCB650]

On my diesel Jeep Liberty, they run the blowby back through the engine. Turns the oil jet black after 20 miles.

An assumed cause and effect, likely erroneous.  How do you know the blowby is the cause?
Some formulations of oil simply change color due to getting hot, multivis oil additives, if I recall correctly, changes from translucent amber to translucent black, with no deleterious effects.  Heat changes the light reflection/filtering behavior but not the properties that the engine needs for lubrication.
If the oil takes on soot particles (or any particulates), it is no longer translucent, whatever the color.

This, BTW, is why testimonial claims about a product often have little value, as they are not based on science or repeatable test results/definitions.

My cousin's, friend's, daughter got some of that oil on the back of her ear and got pregnant the next day.  Therefore, the oil must be a good pregnancy aid.
Perfectly rationalized cause and effect, right?  

But the Jeeps gasses are recirculated. That is a known fact by me and other Jeep CRD owners. Many disconnect the hose and run it into a provent filter, and some just route them down the side of the engine for exit under the Jeep. Kind of looks like an old hay truck smoking. There is some discusion that the soot (aka graphite) as long as it is kept in suspension actually helps lubricate. They only made these for the uS distribution for 2005 and 2006. New air laws prevented it after that, but it is still sold over seas. Newer models have a particulate filter.

[TwoTired]

Route the breather hose directly into your helmet, inhale, fart. Effective for filtering.......

That's near my suggestion for all diesel drivers.  The exhaust system must exit the vehicle at the front rather than the rear, so they, too, get the full benefit of the smoke trail, and not just those unfortunate enough to be behind them.
Seems only fair...
I kinda thought that would be a great pollution control aid.  

[BVCB650]

Route the breather hose directly into your helmet, inhale, fart. Effective for filtering.......

That's near my suggestion for all diesel drivers.  The exhaust system must exit the vehicle at the front rather than the rear, so they, too, get the full benefit of the smoke trail, and not just those unfortunate enough to be behind them.
Seems only fair...
I kinda thought that would be a great pollution control aid.  

Like I was saying, or trying too, by routing the blowby gases back into the engine, my Jeep doesn't smoke at all.

[TwoTired]

But the Jeeps gasses are recirculated. That is a known fact by me and other Jeep CRD owners. Many disconnect the hose and run it into a provent filter, and some just route them down the side of the engine for exit under the Jeep. Kind of looks like an old hay truck smoking. There is some discusion that the soot (aka graphite) as long as it is kept in suspension actually helps lubricate. They only made these for the uS distribution for 2005 and 2006. New air laws prevented it after that, but it is still sold over seas. Newer models have a particulate filter.

Aren't you talking about EGR rather than PCV or crankcase ventilation?

[BVCB650]

But the Jeeps gasses are recirculated. That is a known fact by me and other Jeep CRD owners. Many disconnect the hose and run it into a provent filter, and some just route them down the side of the engine for exit under the Jeep. Kind of looks like an old hay truck smoking. There is some discusion that the soot (aka graphite) as long as it is kept in suspension actually helps lubricate. They only made these for the uS distribution for 2005 and 2006. New air laws prevented it after that, but it is still sold over seas. Newer models have a particulate filter.

Aren't you talking about EGR rather than PCV or crankcase ventilation?

No, at least I don't think so. The guys on my Jeep site plumb a Provent filter in there. It has a side effect of collection oil vapor and it gets dumped every so ofter. Keeps the  intercooler from filling up.

[NickC]

Route the breather hose directly into your helmet, inhale, fart. Effective for filtering.......

That's near my suggestion for all diesel drivers.  The exhaust system must exit the vehicle at the front rather than the rear, so they, too, get the full benefit of the smoke trail, and not just those unfortunate enough to be behind them.
Seems only fair...
I kinda thought that would be a great pollution control aid.  

Just because you see the diesel smoke, doesn't mean it's any more (or less) harmful than that emitted from a gasoline engine...

[TwoTired]

Route the breather hose directly into your helmet, inhale, fart. Effective for filtering.......

That's near my suggestion for all diesel drivers.  The exhaust system must exit the vehicle at the front rather than the rear, so they, too, get the full benefit of the smoke trail, and not just those unfortunate enough to be behind them.
Seems only fair...
I kinda thought that would be a great pollution control aid.  

Just because you see the diesel smoke, doesn't mean it's any more (or less) harmful than that emitted from a gasoline engine...

Perhaps.  But, it does make me, choke, wheeze, cough, and tear up a lot more.  The human body's rejection seems to be a whole lot more immediate.

I guess I'd rather be killed by something that doesn't make me miserable during the time I've been subjected to it. 

[NickC]

You have that reaction because the particulates are bigger than from a gasoline motor

[MRieck]

I wonder if one could rig up a system to distribute the blowby gasses through a restrictor valve (to limit vacuum draw) then to a splitter and into all four carbs (so as to maintain balance) via the sync adapter ports.  Sorta a poor-mans-PCV system.

mystic_1

I like the thought.  But, the sync ports have the vacuum level to draw fuel from the jets.  Any loss of vacuum there will lean the mixture from the carbs.
I think that's too sensitive an insertion point without revamping the carb metering to compensate.

Besides, you don't really want to put negative pressure in the crankcase, as that would actually increase the blowby.

Ahead of the carb inlet is the right place for this function.
I have an old K&N single filter replacement for the stock filter box (out in the part piles).  It has a fitting for the engine breather just between the filter element and the carb inlet plenum.  (Fits 500/550s)

I know, the sync ports are down stream from, and quite close to, the venturi area so they're under quite a bit of vacuum, which is why I suggested a restrictor of some sort just like you use with sync gauges.  I guess you'd want individual restrictors, though, so you could cancel out any variations? That starts to get pretty damn complicated and if it was really a good idea someone would have come up with it by now I suppose lol.

I guess you could plumb little lines into each pod filter but once again, too complicated unless you're going for the Rube Goldberg look.

mystic_1

I need to correct an earlier error in assumption.  Upon further research, negative crankcase pressure has been used in other engines to improve piston ring seal and reduce blowby gasses.  These engines certainly differed in design from the SOHC4.  But, it seems the principle is sound if the implementation is correct.
Still, upsetting the vacuum presented at the jet ports in the carbs will certainly effect their delivery capability, and thus the A/F ratio.
Further, is it possible/even likely that at high RPM, positive pressure in the crankcase occurs.  I read some articles that measured 30 PSI in the crankcase (VW Boxer engines.)  Wouldn't injecting such pressures into the intake duct of the SOHC4 reduce the vacuum and fuel draw in the carbs?