Author Topic: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s  (Read 83097 times)

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Online HondaMan

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #225 on: January 19, 2010, 07:46:01 PM »
It actually sounds like worn dogs on C5...  :'(

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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #226 on: January 20, 2010, 05:02:16 AM »
Yeah that was my first thought, but as I said when that's the cause you usually end up in a false neutral "below" second, so kicking the shifter up again puts you back into second.  In this case, when he kicks the shifter up again he goes into third.

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #227 on: January 20, 2010, 06:48:22 AM »
Thx guys for this discussion...it helps incredibly because now I feel i can focus on the shifter pin assembly attached to the shift drum first, and if that doesn't work, well, I guess I go back in...sigh.

I did look at the shift drum last night and the pins where in the right place...kinda hard not to be when you look at how the have to fit against the out metal plate with the holes drilled in it so the all align.  Two things were a little weird...just a little but i wonder...the center screw hold the pin assembly into the shift drum was loose...not fall out loose but, required almost no torque on the screw driver to take out. and then the thin inner metal plate which the pins slide through, was slightly bent in toward the engine.  I should've taken pics but was to busy investigating.  as suggested, I spend time looking at how the mechanisms move together and how the shift arm pushes or pulls against the pins depending if your shifting up or down....maybe I'll buy replacement parts and see if that helps?

...these C5 gears do not have very well trained dogs
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #228 on: January 22, 2010, 10:27:06 AM »
Please keep your eyes peeled for any virgin or nearly virginesque left shift forks and C5 gears...in case, er, probably when, I need to go back in again...thx.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #229 on: January 27, 2010, 06:33:29 AM »
Brief update...spent time on my '73 CB450 de-winterizing and successly fixing (yeah for a change) an oil leak coming from the left rear crankcase (displaced pushrod seal), consequently I've moved back to the 750 beastie. 

I started rebuilding the shifter mechanism with some spare and some new parts (those I could find)...I figured if I end up the same problem after a rebuild, odds are its not the shifter mechanism anymore...should finish this weekend...

If its still slipping, I'll rebuild the clutch one time, and then if still slipping, I will go back in...but, probably not till spring to give my self same space so i don't end up rolling her down a cliff...heresy I know...she's looks to good to do it now anyhow so she's safe.

...ttyl...ron.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #231 on: February 01, 2010, 12:42:36 PM »
by the way, my rebuilt shift mechanism did NOT do the trick...may try the clutch but I'm thinking its still gotta be that blasted gear.
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #232 on: February 01, 2010, 01:18:27 PM »
Ron,

I looked back through the thread but did not find if there's a pic of the C5 gear you currently have installed.  Got one?

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #233 on: February 01, 2010, 01:40:43 PM »
Nothing thats going to help much



p.s....bought a '79 Honda XL250S for trails...yeah!
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #234 on: February 01, 2010, 02:42:42 PM »
The only other thing I might suggest at this point is take the bike for a test run and make sure to do a slow, deliberate gear change into second, and see if it pops out. 

By "slow and deliberate" I mean pull in the clutch, let the RPM's drop off to idle, lift the gearshift lever with your toe (noting whether the action feels normal ie full travel with no unusual drag or clicking etc), wait a second, release the gearshift lever, then let off the clutch.

When my bike had this issue years ago (due to bad shift forks) I found that shifting like this would usually give me good results, ie it would not pop out of gear.

Other than that, I'm still somewhat stumped.  If we were closer to each other I'd offer to come take a look.

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #235 on: February 01, 2010, 06:06:35 PM »
Cool idea...will definitely try once we get over 32ish...if it still slips then you'd think its the gear?
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #236 on: February 01, 2010, 07:10:13 PM »
It's starting to seem that way, sorry to say.  Before jumping back into the motor, though, I'd suggest driving it several times and collecting data on symptoms.  Clicks, clunks, rattles, clatters, and so forth can help shed light on what's happening.  Let us know how it goes when you baby it though the shifting.  Check your oil pan for debris, feel the oil when you drain it looking for particles, etc.  Sorry I have no more concrete suggestions at this time.

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #237 on: February 01, 2010, 07:50:44 PM »
that helps Mystic cuz I need a little reassurance that about all I can do...I definitely want to test drive it a bit and wtf, might as well ride her for a little while.  If not new, develops then I plan to split her apart again this summer...probably about half way through..july, around there.  I bought a '79 Honda XL250S which I'm going to start focusing my attention on...pretty straightforward compared to what I've been tangling with...a welcome relief...but I not giving up on this beastie.
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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #238 on: February 01, 2010, 10:58:35 PM »
Yup, ride her, if you baby it through second you'll probably be OK.  As I think someone else here said you can just wind out first gear a little and then double-shift, skipping second and going straight to third :D  Still sounds to me like you're better off then when you started way back at the beginning of all this.  Your original gear dogs were scary!   :o

All the best
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #239 on: February 02, 2010, 06:37:28 AM »
Yeah...I do think its "ridable" just not optimal...which makes guys like us crazy...the old gear is now a paperweight on my office desk...still scary and cool to look at.
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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #240 on: February 03, 2010, 09:01:12 AM »
Well, i bought the stupid gear...question though...if it is a bent shift fork, it would be the LEFT shift fork?...cuz i found an NOS one...if I split this baby open again I want no excuses...please let me know if this is correct although i'm assuming it must be as this is the one the goes around that gear....thanks!
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Offline 8 Track

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #242 on: March 06, 2010, 09:40:28 PM »
I finally finished reading this thread "from cover to cover" because I have a transmission issue.  I pop out of fourth when I'm really pouring on the coals.  From neutral to first is a crisp clack.  First to second is a perfect audible clack, but you don't really feel it.  Same into third.  Where it gets interesting is third to fourth doesn't feel so smooth.  What I mean is when I lift my toe, it feels like there's a detent or a notch in the shift action.  I get this by just barely pulling the clutch, rolling off the throttle, you know, normal stuff.  If I get on it at this point, it will pop out around 6500 rpm.  I pay attention and when it makes this crappy shift, I plunk it back into third, and then deliberately shift it into fourth with a crisp flip of my toe and snap the throttle off a little.  I will hear it clack into gear and all is well... most of the time.  Fifth doesn't really give me too much trouble.  I have noticed that my trans doesn't like to be shifted gingerly- it likes the faster toe movement.

When I go out on a casual ride, nothing too crazy, I never have a problem.  I don't want to crack it open because for now this problem keeps me out of trouble.   ;)

Anybody have any comments?

Ron, any updates on yours?
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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #243 on: March 07, 2010, 08:40:53 AM »
The problem with trans problems is...they don't fix themselves. Once it starts misbehaving it will only get worse. At least continuing to ride it is not harmful as the parts that became bad are the only parts involved and they just get worse, but it does not necessarily metasticize. Unless your riding style damages another set.

Another good thing is it can be fixed easily, pull the engine flip it over, pull the lower case and its all exposed.  I'd never replace a gear without replacing its shift fork though. And parts are thinning out, getting more expensive.

Popping out of fourth is rare and parts should be available.
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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #244 on: March 07, 2010, 09:18:22 AM »
I finally finished reading this thread "from cover to cover" because I have a transmission issue.  I pop out of fourth when I'm really pouring on the coals.  From neutral to first is a crisp clack.  First to second is a perfect audible clack, but you don't really feel it.  Same into third.  Where it gets interesting is third to fourth doesn't feel so smooth.  What I mean is when I lift my toe, it feels like there's a detent or a notch in the shift action.  I get this by just barely pulling the clutch, rolling off the throttle, you know, normal stuff.  If I get on it at this point, it will pop out around 6500 rpm.  I pay attention and when it makes this crappy shift, I plunk it back into third, and then deliberately shift it into fourth with a crisp flip of my toe and snap the throttle off a little.  I will hear it clack into gear and all is well... most of the time.  Fifth doesn't really give me too much trouble.  I have noticed that my trans doesn't like to be shifted gingerly- it likes the faster toe movement.

When I go out on a casual ride, nothing too crazy, I never have a problem.  I don't want to crack it open because for now this problem keeps me out of trouble.   ;)

Anybody have any comments?

Ron, any updates on yours?

This is usually caused by some damage to the "R" shift fork, but the CAUSE of the damage should be located or it will reoccur. One common cause is a leaky O-ring in the countershaft bearing retainer, which routes the oil from the countershaft up to the mainshaft: the mainshaft is last in line for oil from the pump. The O-rings are getting old now, and should be replaced. That part is easy.

If the oil supply is low, the gears don't slide well on the shafts, side-to-side, into each other. This makes the fork push harder on the grooves in the gear. This both widens the groove and wears (or burns or bends) the fork over time. The repair is to replace both the fork and the gear it is moving back & forth. Try to find a used gear and a new fork, for best results. The "F" and "K" bikes share the same parts, here, so any tranny will be a good donor.

Interestingly, the final drive gear ratios on the "F" bikes, combined with their higher powerband and the U.S. 55 MPH speed limit for 20 years, makes your symptom the second most common failure in the "F" and K7/K8 gearboxes, because at 55 MPH in top gear, the bike is off cam and slightly sluggish: popping down to 4th for spirited hiway passing is/was a popular "F" sport in the day. That gearset then got shifted much more than on the earlier "K" bikes. This was also found on the K5/K6 bikes (with impatient riders) because of the overgearing and loss of top-end power those bikes had. I usually "fix" that by installing the 17T front drive sprocket.  ;)
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Offline 8 Track

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #245 on: March 07, 2010, 09:31:09 AM »
Thanks HM, that was a great answer.  I "noticed" how the bike wasn't quite right when I first bought it and went to a 17t sprocket almost immediately.  Who would've thought I was on to something.  Besides, they started out with 17t, so that was a good indication.  Knowing something was fishy, I've taken it easy in fourth and fifth for a while now- it's nice to have a better idea as to what's going on in there.  And like I said, if I didn't hear it go in correctly, I shift it again.  My plan is to enjoy it until I find an 836 transplant and do the swap.

For now, *sigh*, I have a broken skeg to look into.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #246 on: March 07, 2010, 10:17:29 AM »
HM. Interesting take on the 4th gear problem. He has a 76K, but still may have been shifting down to 4th a lot.
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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #247 on: March 07, 2010, 03:25:46 PM »
I finally picked my feet up again. I got the cases back together, all the covers and such put back on. It shifts smoothly through all the gears on my bench, so that's a good sign, right? I just hope I sealed the cases right. I tried my best to put an even amount of sealant on every surface but some were harder to get than others. There was also a small spot or two where the sealant seemed to slide around a bit when applying it, as if there was a tiny bit of oil there. I guess I just cross my fingers and hope the oil stays on the inside.

I need to order some clutch plates, get the engine back in the bike and start that chapter of reassembly.
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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #248 on: March 07, 2010, 07:19:35 PM »
HM. Interesting take on the 4th gear problem. He has a 76K, but still may have been shifting down to 4th a lot.

This is me...  :-[
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline 8 Track

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #249 on: March 07, 2010, 07:36:11 PM »
HM. Interesting take on the 4th gear problem. He has a 76K, but still may have been shifting down to 4th a lot.

This is me...  :-[


Hmm, I took it as if you meant to lump the f's and the k's together.  My bike did come standard with an 18t and was sort of doggish until I installed that 17t.  Regardless, the po probably shifted it alot around fourth.  It's got 41,000 miles on it, really clean and still has the yellow on the bolts.  I'm guessing it's all highway miles.
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