Author Topic: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s  (Read 82153 times)

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Offline 754

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #125 on: November 17, 2009, 08:16:21 PM »
Sorry if I misinformed, I meant swapping shafts with clusters..

 The gear driving your output shaft must be same toothcount as before, you could change the gear on final shaft(to sprocket) ..if you could get it..


 78 & probably 77  K as well has a different gear on the final shaft.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 08:20:51 AM by 754 »
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Offline nobody

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #126 on: November 17, 2009, 08:56:03 PM »
Ron, that sucks man. Good luck acquiring the proper gears.

Refresher: I ground gears going from first to second, plunk!, into gear but very rough shifting and no more neutral light.

I haven't had a chance to do anything further, I hurt my shoulder snowboarding this weekend and decided it'd be best to avoid the garage for a few days. I'm thinking when I get back in there I'll remove the oil pan and clean the pump screen to see if i find any bits or pieces of anything. As for what I may have broken, I'm still at a loss as I don't see anything obviously damaged. I know that you, Ron, suggested I remove all the bits for a closer look but I don't know what to even look for. At this point I'm genuinely concerned that maybe something isn't broken in the transmission and that this may all be in vain. Could it be a clutch issue?

So I implore the masses, tell me what to do. I'm too uncertain at this point to proceed blindly.








P.S. Ron, if I'm intruding on your thread too much please let me know.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 08:58:01 PM by mgab »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #127 on: November 17, 2009, 09:22:51 PM »
Okay, Kelley says I can exchange for another one he has in stock...he thinks its a 74 or 75...he thinks the 76 may have been from an F model.

I suggested that I could give him a tooth count and to look for no center line...is there a better way???

...thanks all.

Bingo!
The "F" has different gear ratios from the K0-K6.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #128 on: November 18, 2009, 06:16:50 AM »
Ah, good to have confirmation on the F model thing...feel more confident I'm going to get the right transmission second time around.

Mgab...no worries...I think people are following the two intertwined stories...makes the thread all the richer...but regarding your problem, did you try rebuilding the clutch before peeping into the tranny? I think you are doing the right thing though, I found metal filing in my oil filter screen, and when you see damage, I bet you'll know it...just take a your time, even with my catatrophic damage it took me a little time before I could "see" it.
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Offline nobody

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #129 on: November 18, 2009, 07:50:10 AM »
I didn't do anything with the clutch, when first presented with the problem I was told that if it were a clutch problem the neutral light would still work. I'm going to feel like a moron if this turns out to be a clutch issue and I pulled the engine and split the cases for nothing.
74 cb750k

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #130 on: November 18, 2009, 08:20:12 AM »
Gulp...hmmm...I don't think that's the case...the neutral could malfunction (stuck on or off) for a variety of reasons...bad switch (they get stuck), short in the grounding wire, loose connection...I think those are independent of frictions discs sticking or metal plates being warped in your clutch...wait for confirmation from folks smarter than me...but either way, you are in there now so do everything you can, see what you can see and you can always say, "you rebuilt a 750 tranny."

I rebuilt my clutch at least 5 times prior to splitting my cases hoping that was the issues but everything I tried failed.  I replaced the friction discs, the metal plates, used a double center plate which was a later oem modification to the bike, etc. but still no second gear...and with good reason obviously...but I had fixed my neutral switch prior to that work...just bought a new one off ebay and replaced as the grounding looked good...lots of post on neutral switches...just do a search....stiff upper lip mate as we dont say in michigan but seems appropriate here...just think of me taking out the replacement tranny i just put tonight!...have to find humour in this somehow...and don't ask urself y u do it...cuz as 450 guru Bill told me, its cuz we are sick puppies.
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Offline HondaNorway

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #131 on: November 18, 2009, 10:24:53 AM »

If its in gear, and then hopps into a false neutral, its almost always a shift fork and usually never a clutch problem.

When a shift fork is bent, almost always from abuse, sometimes from a fall, it can't slide the gear to the left or right enough to get a full engagement and when power is applied or reduced, the gear hopps out of its engagement into the never land of the false neutral.

Between which gears is this happening? usually its the 1-2 upshift that won't stick and it jumps out of 2nd.
[/quote]

Hi, and thanks for the answer  :)

Yes, I think it's the 2nd gear.
Is it a major job to change a shift fork? Consider I don't have a lot of experince. But I will try to change it anyway, just wondering if it's a big job.

-stian

'74 CB750
'76 CB750F

Offline MCRider

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #132 on: November 18, 2009, 10:33:54 AM »

If its in gear, and then hopps into a false neutral, its almost always a shift fork and usually never a clutch problem.

When a shift fork is bent, almost always from abuse, sometimes from a fall, it can't slide the gear to the left or right enough to get a full engagement and when power is applied or reduced, the gear hopps out of its engagement into the never land of the false neutral.

Between which gears is this happening? usually its the 1-2 upshift that won't stick and it jumps out of 2nd.

Hi, and thanks for the answer  :)

Yes, I think it's the 2nd gear.
Is it a major job to change a shift fork? Consider I don't have a lot of experince. But I will try to change it anyway, just wondering if it's a big job.

-stian

[/quote]
Hmmm  deja vu?  Seems I've answered this maybe on another thread. Anyway. Yes its a big job. Someone who knows what to do with all the tools and parts could do it in 4 to 5 hours. You could get it apart in 2 to 3 hours. If you have to chase parts, 3+ hours. Next weekend put it back together in 6 to 8 hours. And you would be very pleased with yourself.
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Offline nobody

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #133 on: November 19, 2009, 08:42:14 AM »
So I had some quality time with my transmission last night. I flipped the lower case over, pulled out the oil pump screen... Nothing, not even a single metal shaving. I ask my friend to look over the gears and everything to see if he can see anything I missed, no luck. At this point I decide "it's GOT to be the clutch.". With a helpful tip from my friend I was able to remove the nut that holds the clutch plates in using a flat head screwdriver and a hammer, a few hits later and we were in business. The only problem being that after removing the clutch plates we were back out of business... The friction material looks fine, the metal plates are clean and shiny with no apparent warping. There was some very minor wear in the clutch plate housing but nothing that I would think would really affect any function...
(I have pictures at home that I can post later if need be)

So now I'm back at square one, I'm terribly vexed and terribly frustrated. So I guess my next step is gear removal and closer inspection? I need any advice I can get at this point because whatever is causing my hard shift is eluding me.
74 cb750k

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #134 on: November 22, 2009, 09:35:20 AM »
So I had some quality time with my transmission last night. I flipped the lower case over, pulled out the oil pump screen... Nothing, not even a single metal shaving. I ask my friend to look over the gears and everything to see if he can see anything I missed, no luck. At this point I decide "it's GOT to be the clutch.". With a helpful tip from my friend I was able to remove the nut that holds the clutch plates in using a flat head screwdriver and a hammer, a few hits later and we were in business. The only problem being that after removing the clutch plates we were back out of business... The friction material looks fine, the metal plates are clean and shiny with no apparent warping. There was some very minor wear in the clutch plate housing but nothing that I would think would really affect any function...
(I have pictures at home that I can post later if need be)

So now I'm back at square one, I'm terribly vexed and terribly frustrated. So I guess my next step is gear removal and closer inspection? I need any advice I can get at this point because whatever is causing my hard shift is eluding me.

The appearance of the clutch plates won't tell you very much, except about wear of the cork or burnt spots.

You must measure the warpage of the plates. If they are more than 0.010" warped, the clutch will barely disengage when pulled. I use a thick piece of glass as a poor-man's "Flat Plate", laying the clutch plates down one at a time and sliding feeler gages under the edges to see what the max warp is. New ones are usually under 0.003", used ones often around 0.006". Beyond that 0.006" figure, they start dragging a little when disengaged, which will make for hard shifting. Honda says "replace at 0.012" warp", but by then, the tranny usually won't shift unless you're rolling.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline nobody

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #135 on: November 22, 2009, 03:54:49 PM »
I laid each plate on a piece of glass and looked closely with a bare eye, they all appeared to sit flush against the glass. Maybe I should get my hands on a feeler gauge and take some measurements. Is there anything else you can think of that I should look for?

According to this post my hard shift is more than likely not a transmission issue, is this correct?

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=61641.msg670431#msg670431
Something they taught us at school about transmission diagnostics...
"If the symptom happens in three or more gears, the problem is outside the transmission(shift linkage, shift detent, clutch). If the symptom is specific to one or two gears, the  issue is inside the transmission(gears,shafts,drum,forks)."

Have I needlessly split my cases?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 03:58:53 PM by mgab »
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Offline steamnjn23

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #136 on: November 22, 2009, 06:41:12 PM »
i'm gonna be no help here, but since you've opened the cases, take a good hard, long look and see if anything looks odd, questionable, or outa place.  go over it piece by piece, WITH your service manual, and make sure you understand as much about its operation as you can at this point. 
when you've finished, step away for a period of time, (get your brain thinking about something totally different), get a cup of coffee, take a break, and then come back and repeat the process again.

i cant help you with your problem, but just getting familiar with the inner workings will help you later down the road.
...oh! use good quality gaskets upon re-assembly.  Dont skimp on quality!
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #137 on: November 22, 2009, 06:46:59 PM »
Fyi...ron has been...painted the bottom of his frame where the engine used to sit...cleaning crankcase bolts with a die and scotchbrite pad...painting engine...cleaning and painting exhaust...replacing exhaust ring gaskets...

And..waiting...waiting for another transmission to arrive in the mail.

any recommendation on gasket goo for when I put the halves back together?

..also, that sounds like really good advice mgab...see what you can see without the goal of finding anything wrong...maybe it will reveal itself...maybe its alright.  I know easy for me to say after what i found.
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #138 on: November 22, 2009, 07:57:53 PM »
I laid each plate on a piece of glass and looked closely with a bare eye, they all appeared to sit flush against the glass. Maybe I should get my hands on a feeler gauge and take some measurements. Is there anything else you can think of that I should look for?


It's hard to see 0.006" by eye, get a feeler gauge.  You'll want a set later on anyway for things like points gap and valve clearances. 

According to this post my hard shift is more than likely not a transmission issue, is this correct?

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=61641.msg670431#msg670431
Something they taught us at school about transmission diagnostics...
"If the symptom happens in three or more gears, the problem is outside the transmission(shift linkage, shift detent, clutch). If the symptom is specific to one or two gears, the  issue is inside the transmission(gears,shafts,drum,forks)."

Have I needlessly split my cases?


Actually the passage you posted implies that, since your problem occurs when shifting from first to second, the problem should be in the transmission.  It's still possible that it's a clutch issue but that's what I take from your stated symptom and the quote you posted.


Shifting into first gear into second involves the movement of the C5 gear (see pic) which is the job of the left-most shift fork, so focus your explorations there.  How do the shift dogs on the side of the gears look, btw?  If the corners of the dogs are rounded off that can cause poor shift action as the dogs tend to bounce off their engagement slots rather than catching and sliding home.  It's hard to see the dogs in your earlier pics.



Regarding your neutral light issue, have you tested the neutral switch?  Pop it out of the engine and check to see that the actuator ball moves freely.  Measure continuity between the switch body and the screw terminal, you should have continuity when the ball is not pushed in.  If that looks good than it's possible the light is simply burned out. 

It's hard to imagine a gear problem that would directly affect the neutral light.

As others have said, if nothing else the practical knowledge you've gained by getting inside the engine is priceless so look on that as a silver lining.

mystic_1
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #139 on: November 22, 2009, 08:02:46 PM »
any recommendation on gasket goo for when I put the halves back together?


I always use Hondabond, but Threebond 1194 is the same stuff.  Don't over-do it, just a thin layer is all you need.


Hondaman says:

When you go to reassemble: think of Hondabond as paint, like house paint, and apply it about that thick: that's all it takes. More than that will make it go many places where it should not be, like bearings and oil pump screens (after startup).


mystic_1
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #140 on: November 22, 2009, 08:03:46 PM »
And for the both of you, here's another pertinent quote from Hondaman:

Hang in there, we'll talk you through it. The best part: there is nothing 'hidden' in the assembly of these engines, so they are a real confidence-builder, once reassembled properly. And then, they typically last 50,000 miles or more!

:)

mystic_1
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Offline nobody

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #141 on: November 23, 2009, 01:03:58 PM »
i'm gonna be no help here, but since you've opened the cases, take a good hard, long look and see if anything looks odd, questionable, or outa place.  go over it piece by piece, WITH your service manual, and make sure you understand as much about its operation as you can at this point.  
when you've finished, step away for a period of time, (get your brain thinking about something totally different), get a cup of coffee, take a break, and then come back and repeat the process again.
..also, that sounds like really good advice mgab...see what you can see without the goal of finding anything wrong...maybe it will reveal itself...maybe its alright.  I know easy for me to say after what i found.

I actually spent about half an hour yesterday shifting gears around, trying to understand how the gears and forks work together. I looked closely at every dog, every tooth, every fork and every everything... nothing jumped out at me. I'll repeat the process again and maybe something will leap out and slap me in the face.

It's hard to see 0.006" by eye, get a feeler gauge.  You'll want a set later on anyway for things like points gap and valve clearances.  

I'll go ahead and get a feeler gauge after thanksgiving and see what the plates are at.

Actually the passage you posted implies that, since your problem occurs when shifting from first to second, the problem should be in the transmission.  It's still possible that it's a clutch issue but that's what I take from your stated symptom and the quote you posted.

My issue actually occured in more than just first to second. For the few miles before I realized the depth of the problem it had a hard shift going into every gear. I didn't try fifth as I was only on city streets but I got up to fourth. The hard shift seems most apparent from neutral to first and first to second but was there to a lesser extent on three and four. I think, the last time I rode it was over six months ago.

Shifting into first gear into second involves the movement of the C5 gear (see pic) which is the job of the left-most shift fork, so focus your explorations there.  How do the shift dogs on the side of the gears look, btw?  If the corners of the dogs are rounded off that can cause poor shift action as the dogs tend to bounce off their engagement slots rather than catching and sliding home.  It's hard to see the dogs in your earlier pics.

I haven't noticed any abnormanl wear or damage to the dogs, I'll have to take another look to be sure. Should I take some pictures of their condition? It's kind of hard to see the whole left-most fork while still engaged with the gear shaft, should I remove the gears for closer inspection of that fork?

Regarding your neutral light issue, have you tested the neutral switch?  Pop it out of the engine and check to see that the actuator ball moves freely.  Measure continuity between the switch body and the screw terminal, you should have continuity when the ball is not pushed in.  If that looks good than it's possible the light is simply burned out.  

It's hard to imagine a gear problem that would directly affect the neutral light.

I actually pulled the switch out of my donor bottom end and the one I'm trying to fix. I think the root of the light may be the switch. The operation was somewhat rough and sticky compared to the donor switch. The donor switch is a little shinier and moves quite fluidly.

As others have said, if nothing else the practical knowledge you've gained by getting inside the engine is priceless so look on that as a silver lining.

mystic_1

Oh for sure, I'm not really regretting this decision yet, I'm actually rather excited to be learning so much about my bike. It's just mildly frustrating to have any sign of trouble completely escaping my grasp. You know? It's like when you lose your keys and you know that they're somewhere in your house, but even after you've covered every inch of your house four times you still can't find them... That's me right now, frantically running around going "Where the hell are they?! I know they're here somewhere! What the hell?!?!?!?!"
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 01:06:18 PM by mgab »
74 cb750k

If life hands you lemons, make lemonade. If life hands you tomatoes, make tomato soup. If life hands you a box of hand grenades... well, now... THAT'S a message!!

Offline steamnjn23

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #142 on: November 23, 2009, 01:55:32 PM »

Quote
It's just mildly frustrating to have any sign of trouble completely escaping my grasp.

imagine trying to rebuild the engine without this site...that would be frustrating.  thats where i was about 3 weeks ago...now i have the bike running.
Thanks guys!
1976 cb550

Offline nobody

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #143 on: November 23, 2009, 02:09:12 PM »
I would have probably sold the bike if I didn't have this site. I don't have the knowledge to do it on my own. Maybe after this ordeal I'll be able to do that.

Thank you SOHC4.net, seriously.
74 cb750k

If life hands you lemons, make lemonade. If life hands you tomatoes, make tomato soup. If life hands you a box of hand grenades... well, now... THAT'S a message!!

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #144 on: November 23, 2009, 04:19:32 PM »
Pay it forward, guys :)  Helping out the next bloke in line is all the thanks we need :)

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #145 on: November 23, 2009, 06:47:18 PM »
+1...this thing would be parts right now or worse
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #146 on: November 23, 2009, 06:49:41 PM »
...and my new used transmission is in the mail says the seller...hopefully here for this weekend...question...does Hondabond come in different strengths?

and what strength loctite or equivalent on the crankcase bolts?
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #147 on: November 23, 2009, 07:56:14 PM »
...and my new used transmission is in the mail says the seller...hopefully here for this weekend...question...does Hondabond come in different strengths?

and what strength loctite or equivalent on the crankcase bolts?
HondaBond: not that I know of. Not necessary. THin film on the case seam, give it a few minutes to get tacky, then go.

I can't imagine a need for locktite. Anyone else?

If anything I would use an anti-seize compound. Availabe at auto supply.  Useful whenever running a fastener of one material (steel) into a receiver of another (aluminm). It will also act as a lubricant and give you better torque readings on the mainbearing bolts.
Ride Safe:
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #148 on: November 23, 2009, 08:07:18 PM »
HondaBond: not that I know of. Not necessary. THin film on the case seam, give it a few minutes to get tacky, then go.

I can't imagine a need for locktite. Anyone else?

If anything I would use an anti-seize compound. Availabe at auto supply.  Useful whenever running a fastener of one material (steel) into a receiver of another (aluminm). It will also act as a lubricant and give you better torque readings on the mainbearing bolts.


+1 to all of the above.

mystic_1
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Splitting the cases on my CB750...first of many ?'s
« Reply #149 on: November 24, 2009, 05:57:24 PM »
A sculpture garden..."exhausted"



...sorry, a little levity to break up the work
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 10:54:49 AM by ron.cieri.313 »
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