Author Topic: MAster cylinder circlip woes...  (Read 10937 times)

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Offline Noel

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2006, 08:45:13 PM »
Quote
Ive never yet come across a Four mastercylinder that actually NEEDS this done unless its been leaking.
Heh. I was using it to force out the old (seized) piston in the caliper when it went "pop" and started oozing foul liquid. So I launched the piston across the garage with the compressor and got on the phone to add a master cylinder rebuild kit to my caliper rebuild order.

BTW, techy's method of chasing the circlip around until the critical bits are facing the opening is exactly what I ended up doing. Then I used a broken screwdriver (which broke during the aforementioned circlip chasing business, primarily because the circlip was rusted into place) with a freshly sharpened tip to pry the unholy thing out and get on with my life.

I will seriously consider just buying an aftermarket master cylinder if this happens again.  At a hundred bucks minus twenty for the rebuild kit I won't have to buy, I figure I'll come out ahead, at least if my time has any value at all. I really didn't enjoy that.
'73 CB500

Offline paulages

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2006, 09:14:41 PM »
Um, REALLY stupid question....is the piston leaking? Does it move in and out without moving? If the answers are NO and YES, then why are you replacing? Ive never yet come across a Four mastercylinder that actually NEEDS this done unless its been leaking. ALL the brake issues are elsewhere in the system.

phlo

does the m/c reservoir being completely crusty count as neccesitating a rebuild? between my three cb550's and one of my friends' 550, all of them were crusty any kind of function. then again, i seek out bikes that have sat for 20 years, knowing that they'll still run and ride again with a little TLC.
paul
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1974 CB550 (735cc)
1976 CB550 (590cc) road racer
1973 CB750K3
1972 NORTON Commando Combat
1996 KLX650 R

Offline Noel

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2006, 09:25:09 PM »
Way I look at it, it needs a rebuild if it doesn't meet your standards.

For some people, that standard is as simple as "works" or "doesn't work".

For others, life is more complicated.  ;)
'73 CB500

theunrulychef

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2006, 05:34:59 AM »
Also, isn't it a good idea to rebuild if you're switching to DOT 5 fluid - even if they're not leaking, or will a good flush of fluid do the trick?

Offline byidesign

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2006, 08:53:00 AM »
I purchased a universal pair {inside/outside}that take replaceble {octagonal] tips
   then I ground down two long allen wrenches to the right end dia,
    and reached right in with them .....
       {you can always replace the tips}
              Hope it helps
                       Bruce
82CB650SC,80CM400

phylo101

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2006, 03:33:46 PM »
All, as to the "work or doesnt work" issue.... if you search somewhere in the archives Ive given FULL details on how to rebuild the ENTIRE brake system so that you at least treble the efficiency AND reduce the wooden feel....and NONE of it involves playing with the master cylinder if its not leaking. Go and find it. Remember, the best speed tuning is the piece of mind good brakes give you. The regime you'll find there sorts ALL the issues with these brakes.

phylo

phylo101

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2006, 04:12:11 PM »
Ok, Ive searched round the site, and the OLD forum postings from before the site was reformated are no longer archived. Bummer.

If anyone wants the straight skinny on how to make these things really grip, email me at classicmodel@hotmail.co.uk

phylo

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2006, 04:22:03 PM »
If you are referring to the Greenspun archives, they can be searched here;

[url][http://www.sohc4.us/greenspun/index.php?action=search;advanced/url]
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

phylo101

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2006, 05:07:11 PM »
Can'tfind what I'm looking for, so here we go from scratch   >:( LOL

Make sure your master cylinder is clean and roughly dry of fluid. No sopecialised cleaners or anything, just make sure you've cleaened out the reservoir of all crud, cold coffeee old fluid etc. Also clean the crusty dried-out crud from inside the cap. Make sure the lever moves freely, only replace the piston seal IF it was leaking or just won't movce at all - means the old seal has swollen TOO much.

Replace the brake line with braided steel hose. Most decent bike shops will sell you the wherewithall to make your own, or they'll make it up for you. They'll even sell lines nowadays with a black colourcoded covering on it! Assemble at naster cycliner and caliper ends with NEW copper washers and bolts...or that dinky little straightpull fitting at the caliper end if youre using that instead of a banjo and bolt fitting.

Now.....

Buy a set of EBC pads. Theyre the best compromise between weather types and performance, and the limited amount of sintered bronze they contain will not wear the discs too fast. Ive had Ferodos disappear into dust in 800 miles, and fully-sintered Dunlopads are FAR to wearing, they rip your discs to shreads.

Remove the caliper from the bike by undoing the two long thru-bolts holding the two valiper halves to the torque arm. Remove the torque arm assembly and clean and lubricate all moving parts. Reassemble.

Remove the old static pad from the caliper half that sits next the frame. Fit a nice new little split pin on this, the old one WILL be very rusted and brittle. Then set aside for a while.

Take the "active" caliper half in your hand. Remove and throw your old pad very far away. Never reuse. If your bike is a barn queen theres every chance it was an old Vesrah OEM compressed-hay item. remove and similarly THROW AWAY the rubber boot thingy that keeps dirt and water out...WHY? You'll find when we go further in its TOTALLY useless LOL. now, if you didn't remove the piston earlier, do it now, Just bleed the whole system up and it'll pop out. If you live in the People's Republic of California remember to put a bowl under the caliper to catch the dripping brake fluid LOL. Let the caliper dangle and drip.

Inspect the piston. It WILL be rusty, maybe white-cruddy, possibly badly-marked. Dress down with very fine emery paper/glass paper, time and care works wonders here, only a VERY badly marked or pocked piston will have to be replaced. Do this GENTLY remember this is a hard chromed surface, a valuable commodity if kept smooth and whole. Set aside.

Take the caliper. Using something small like a rounded-off small screwdriver remove the seal from its groove. Clean it with brake fluid and a rag, you'll find all the crusty crud will rub off. Clean the caliper with a clean non-stringy rag, a tack cloth for prepping paint surfaces is good, no lint left. Clean out the seal groove.

Now, the seal WHEN NEW is square-section, it depends on an angeld face in the groove to poke one edge out. However, years of use means that the inside edge of the seal WILL have worn so inside and outside faces are NOT parallel. Put it back in it groove WITH THE EVIDENTLY RAISED EDGE TOWARDS THE INSIDE OF THE CALIPER!

Take your clean, polished piston and press it firmly home, all the way to the bottom of the caliper.

Take your other EBC brake pad now. Take a file and remove ALL signs of paint from around the outside edge of the pad. This is a thick tarry anti-corrosion paint, and builds up a too-thick layer. With it removed - remember the little groove as well - you'll find the pad is a nice loose rattly fit in the caliper? Thats exactly what you want.

Now smear the BACK of the pad with copaslip, copper grease, or properl "Brake grease" if you can get it. And smear LIGHTLY round the edge you have just cleaned of paint. Slide it into your caliper half, and reassemble the caliper halves on the torque arm.

Bleed the system up now with clean fresh brake fluid. DOT3 is OEM of course, but DOT4 works FINE and gives you less sponginess at the lever. Do this in the way YOU know, ensuring ALL tracres of air are removed from the system.

Is there still a lot of loose play at the lever, before it it touches the head of the master cylinder piston? If the travel is too great you can dress a non-stell but non-aluminium spacer to fit in there between the two to take up some play. Here in the UK I use an old Decimal currency halfpenny, its the same diameter as the piston bore, minus a thou or two, is a very neat fit and being cupro-nickel doesn't rust!

Right, what you'll have NOW is a brake system that is far better than what you started with - but you AMY still have a degree of that Honda "wooden"feel. Take the top of the caliper in your hand and wiggle from side to side...I'll bet there's no movement? Ok, slacken off the adjuster bolt that holds the torque arm in place and the caliper against the disc, until with the brake off you CAN rattle the caliper from side to side. Tighten the security nut on the bolt at this position.

Test the bike. Your wooden feeling will be GONE and your brake far better. Things MAY rattle a little, but less that you'd expect. The brake will NOT squeal; the grease behind the active pad damps this out. The carefully-replaced caliper seal ensures that as you release the lever hydraulic effect allows the piston to suck back freely into the caliper and not hang up, the loosened-off torque arm and dressed down pad allows the active pad to be thrown freely back into the caliper and not drag on the disc, while the clearnace you've adjusted into the torque arm pushes the other side of the caliper away from the disc freely. No dragging or wooden-ness.

Enjoy, But get used to it first. Theres no tuning tweak that improves speed QUITE as much as having total faith in your brakes to stop you.

regards, phylo





Offline scunny

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2006, 06:23:38 PM »
good article phylo, that will be make my list of things to do.
 cheers
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RSV12K

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2006, 12:00:51 PM »
I tried the small circlip pliers ($10) from Sears without any success at all. After that, I decided to go with "pick and lift" approach using picks in a solder/desloder kit I bought ages ago at Radio Shack. Those worked surprising well: Managed to hook the clip and work it up enough to grab it with a small needlenose plier. The picks are handy for cleaning out the crud, as is the little wire brush in the kit.

Can't beat the price: $4.99 at Rat Shack.



The Sears pliers were handy to getting the clip in, so that's not money wasted.

BruceA cb550

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2006, 07:02:15 AM »
Thank God I've only had to do this once, but I found that a pick works the best for removing the clip. Couldnt begin to get at the clip with circlip pliars of any size.

Offline dpen

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Re: MAster cylinder circlip woes...
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2006, 07:26:30 AM »
Likewise with the picks. I've done heaps of work with brake systems & hydraulics & they are invaluable.

An engineers "scriber" from a hardware store works well too.