Topic: Guns Oked in bars in Arizona starting Wednesday

[Duke McDukiedook]

I'm for guns rights and all but I don't see this playing out well at all.
This is just a bad, bad idea.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33074414/ns/us_news-life?GT1=43001

[Damfino]

What'd you call me stranger? You'd better smile when you say that....

[bucky katt]

i'm a concealed weapon permit holder and i think that it's a REAL bad idea, even though the law says the permit holder cant drink if theyre carrying.................sounds like an episode of rescue 911 waiting to happen.

[Duke McDukiedook]

No kidding, another excuse to not frequent bars besides an empty wallet and hangovers.

[Cvillechopper]

It's a slippery slope.  The difference between a bar and a restaurant are hard to define and the intent is to allow permit holders to carry when they go to dinner.  Being a permit holder myself I am very careful to follow the laws and do not carry when I go to dinner at a restaurant that serves alcohol as dictated by VA state laws.  This would not be necessary if the state allowed permit holders to carry in businesses that sell alcohol as long as they do not drink. 
Aside from the "should carry permits be allowed at all" debate, this type of restriction makes it basically impossible for someone that obeys the laws to have their weapon with them going to or from the restaurant (statistically higher probability of being attacked than other times).

Permit holders account for such a small fraction of a percentage of firearms arrests that allowing them to carry in a bar (as long as they don't drink) doesn't increase violence in the states that do allow this.  Remember, most people that carry legally have gone through a long process to get their permit and are much less likely to commit a crime than the guy carrying a gun without a permit.  That guy doesn't care if the law tells him he can't carry here or there cause he's breaking the law the minute he leaves his property. 

[Blasbo]

Back in the late 70s college buddies and I used to go to the World Famous Wonder Bar for nickel beer night. They had a big sign as you went in stating "No guns or knives allowed". There were always several pistols and large knives on the table next to a tough looking bouncer. It was known as a rough place and there would be fistfights occasionally but no shootings that I remember.

[DammitDan]

Permit holders account for such a small fraction of a percentage of firearms arrests that allowing them to carry in a bar (as long as they don't drink) doesn't increase violence in the states that do allow this.  Remember, most people that carry legally have gone through a long process to get their permit and are much less likely to commit a crime than the guy carrying a gun without a permit.  That guy doesn't care if the law tells him he can't carry here or there cause he's breaking the law the minute he leaves his property.  

This sounds logical, but the point is that alcohol chemically changes the way people think and act.  What a sober person would do and what an inebriated person would do are two totally different worlds.

Regardless of how much effort or training one must go through to obtain a carry permit, any thought of this will take a backseat if the person gets drunk and needs to "take care of some business".

Conservative lawmakers tried to pass this law in TN and it passed (after the Governor vetoed it).  They were also trying to pass a law to force businesses to allow pet dogs on the patio dining area of restaurants.  This one failed.  I'm disappointed our state's voting majority is going along with the "I only need two things, mah guns and mah dogs" minority.

[Cvillechopper]

Permit holders account for such a small fraction of a percentage of firearms arrests that allowing them to carry in a bar (as long as they don't drink) doesn't increase violence in the states that do allow this.  Remember, most people that carry legally have gone through a long process to get their permit and are much less likely to commit a crime than the guy carrying a gun without a permit.  That guy doesn't care if the law tells him he can't carry here or there cause he's breaking the law the minute he leaves his property.  

This sounds logical, but the point is that alcohol chemically changes the way people think and act.  What a sober person would do and what an inebriated person would do are two totally different worlds.

Regardless of how much effort or training one must go through to obtain a carry permit, any thought of this will take a backseat if the person gets drunk and needs to "take care of some business".

Conservative lawmakers tried to pass this law in TN and it passed (after the Governor vetoed it).  They were also trying to pass a law to force businesses to allow pet dogs on the patio dining area of restaurants.  This one failed.  I'm disappointed our state's voting majority is going along with the "I only need two things, mah guns and mah dogs" minority.

I don't argue that alcohol doesn't impair judgment.  That would be complete folly.  My point is that permit holders would not drink knowing that it is against the law to do so while carrying.  While I do carry very often I do not when I go wine tasting, play poker with the guys, etc. because I would never want to be seen as an irresponsible gun owner in the same way that I would not drink a beer at dinner if I was carrying.

[bucky katt]

I don't argue that alcohol doesn't impair judgment.  That would be complete folly.  My point is that permit holders would not drink knowing that it is against the law to do so while carrying.  While I do carry very often I do not when I go wine tasting, play poker with the guys, etc. because I would never want to be seen as an irresponsible gun owner in the same way that I would not drink a beer at dinner if I was carrying.








i  couldnt have put it any better

[Gordon]

More hub-bub over nothing.  It's not the licensed to carry, law-abiding citizen who's not drinking that you need to worry about.  It's the guy sitting alone right next to you who's illegally packing and getting wasted, and doesn't give a #$%* whether it's legal or not, that should worry you.  If there are going to be people like that in bars, they're already there, and this will have no effect on them. 

[gregimotis]

More hub-bub over nothing.  It's not the licensed to carry, law-abiding citizen who's not drinking that you need to worry about.  It's the guy sitting alone right next to you who's illegally packing and getting wasted, and doesn't give a #$%* whether it's legal or not, that should worry you.  If there are going to be people like that in bars, they're already there, and this will have no effect on them. 

+1

[johnyvilla]

I love beer so much. I love my bike and guns as well; But I do not always make the best decisions with beer/guns/bikes.

I have regretted many, many things i have said and done when intoxicated. I thank god, guns and bikes were not involved at the time.

[cleveland]

More hub-bub over nothing.  It's not the licensed to carry, law-abiding citizen who's not drinking that you need to worry about.  It's the guy sitting alone right next to you who's illegally packing and getting wasted, and doesn't give a #$%* whether it's legal or not, that should worry you.  If there are going to be people like that in bars, they're already there, and this will have no effect on them. 

Exactly!!! 

Guns are bad....mmmm kay.   

[BeSeeingYou]

I guess if I had to worry about people packing heat sitting next to me in a bar or had to feel that I have to arm myself just to leave the house or go to a restaurant I might think about a lifestyle change or maybe a new locale.  Some of you guys must live in some pretty scary places. 

Let's set aside the restaurant issue as many go to eat and not drink.  How many people go to a bar and not drink?  Who's to know, it's concealed right, as long as you don't pull it out.  I just don't buy the line that some of the permit holders won't be drinking.  What are they doing in the bar then?  They are subjected to all the same temptations the rest of us are.

Once again our overseas members will read this and think we all live in some wacky wild west movie with gunslingers on every corner. 

[Gordon]

I just don't buy the line that some of the permit holders won't be drinking.  What are they doing in the bar then?  They are subjected to all the same temptations the rest of us are.

Who's to say that permitted gun carriers aren't already drinking in bars while holding a concealed weapon?  If they'll drink illegally while carrying a weapon when it's legal to have the gun but not drink, then why wouldn't they carry their weapon into a bar when it was still illegal to do so at all? 

My point is that this new loosening of restrictions is just words on paper.  The only people it will change anything for are the law-abiding gun carriers, and those are exactly the only people all of us have nothing to worry about.  It's the ones who will do what they want regardless of the law, and who are already doing what they want regardless of the law, that are going to cause the problems, and this will change nothing for them. 

[TwoTired]

I just don't buy the line that some of the permit holders won't be drinking.  What are they doing in the bar then?  They are subjected to all the same temptations the rest of us are.

Who's to say that permitted gun carriers aren't already drinking in bars while holding a concealed weapon?  If they'll drink illegally while carrying a weapon when it's legal to have the gun but not drink, then why wouldn't they carry their weapon into a bar when it was still illegal to do so at all? 

My point is that this new loosening of restrictions is just words on paper.  The only people it will change anything for are the law-abiding gun carriers, and those are exactly the only people all of us have nothing to worry about.  It's the ones who will do what they want regardless of the law, and who are already doing what they want regardless of the law, that are going to cause the problems, and this will change nothing for them. 

Well said, Gordon.

But, that still won't stop those who wish to vilify gun owners because they don't like guns or can't trust themselves with a gun.  Perhaps they judge themselves as basically evil, and so, everyone else must also be evil, as well.

[cleveland]

I guess if I had to worry about people packing heat sitting next to me in a bar or had to feel that I have to arm myself just to leave the house or go to a restaurant I might think about a lifestyle change or maybe a new locale.  Some of you guys must live in some pretty scary places. 

Minnesota offers a permit to carry.  I've been to the twin cities, they are not as scary as you'd think. 

Here's a link.

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/CJIS/Documents/CarryPermit/PermittoCarry.html

[Gordon]

The biggest issue I can see with this is one that was touched on in the article.  Some, if not most bar owners, may not like the idea of prominently posting a big, red "No Guns Allowed" sign at the entrance to their establishment, for fear of leading their patrons to believe that there is a specific reason for needing to post said sign. 

For these business owners, this change means they will be forced to choose between whether they want to post the sign and possibly give the wrong impression of their bar/restaurant, or not post the sign and possibly give the wrong impression of their bar/restaurant.  If I owned a business in Arizona that serves alcohol, I'd be really pissed right now. 

[tramp]

alcohol and guns
every gun safety book says don't put the two together

[BeSeeingYou]

I just don't buy the line that some of the permit holders won't be drinking.  What are they doing in the bar then?  They are subjected to all the same temptations the rest of us are.

Who's to say that permitted gun carriers aren't already drinking in bars while holding a concealed weapon?  If they'll drink illegally while carrying a weapon when it's legal to have the gun but not drink, then why wouldn't they carry their weapon into a bar when it was still illegal to do so at all? 

My point is that this new loosening of restrictions is just words on paper.  The only people it will change anything for are the law-abiding gun carriers, and those are exactly the only people all of us have nothing to worry about.  It's the ones who will do what they want regardless of the law, and who are already doing what they want regardless of the law, that are going to cause the problems, and this will change nothing for them. 

Well said, Gordon.

But, that still won't stop those who wish to vilify gun owners because they don't like guns or can't trust themselves with a gun.  Perhaps they judge themselves as basically evil, and so, everyone else must also be evil, as well.

TT stop with the psycho babble, been watching Oprah to much lately?

You miss the whole point.  I am not vilifying anyone.  Just pointing out the permit holders are not some morally superior beings who would never violate the law.  They are the same as the rest of us and subjected to the same emotions, ego, passions, and tempers.  I know if I was sitting in a bar and someone came in with a gun strapped on, permit or not, I would immediately leave.  I have no idea of that persons mental state or blood alcohol level.  It does not make me feel safe quite the opposite in fact.

Aside from that unless you have police, military, or intensive security training you are all amateurs when it comes to using a gun in a split second, crowded, high pressure situation.  Your 2, 4, or 5 day gun course is nothing compared to the intensive professional ongoing training required in these situations.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Yeah man, cops are trained to drink and strap, that's professionalism.

[cleveland]

I think they take that coarse their senior year.   

[demon78]

As a Canadian I don't see the point, if I'm packing a weapon I'm back in (what a scary thought) if I'm back in I don't drink with the weapon, if I'm not in, I'm out of there because I don't need the hassles, real simple.
Bill the demon.

[johnyvilla]

I am glad that both times I was held up, I was not holding. Both times were in the evening when I was leaving a bar, or drunk. Both times a gun was pointed at me before I knew what was going down. I guarantee that if I had been carrying at the time, I would have been like, "#$%*, this is why I carry a gun! Its on!" 

I was shot one of the times. I can't imagine what would have happened If I would have stuck my hand in my waistband after these fellas had already drawn.