Author Topic: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet? (Read 8832 times)

Gorms · « **on:** October 06, 2009, 08:01:36 PM »

Is there any harm in this? I had heard that a liner can break down over time. Kinda having trouble believing this for a new helmet that is stil in the box. Its on clearance and is a great price.

myhondas · « **Reply #1 on:** October 06, 2009, 08:05:15 PM »

dot life on most is about 5 years. that makes this one 60% gone. better get a real good discount on it. make sure it fits perfectly otherwise it is not worth it. IMHO

IndyFour · « **Reply #2 on:** October 06, 2009, 08:05:20 PM »

I'd buy it.

Gorms · « **Reply #3 on:** October 06, 2009, 08:13:06 PM »

Its a very good price. Exactly half of this years model which is identical.

754 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 06, 2009, 08:14:08 PM »

Its about 32 years newer than mine...

Alan F. · « **Reply #5 on:** October 06, 2009, 08:19:11 PM »

Quote from: myhondas on October 06, 2009, 08:05:15 PM

dot life on most is about 5 years. that makes this one 60% gone. better get a real good discount on it. make sure it fits perfectly otherwise it is not worth it. IMHO

+1, ever see a 3 year old styrofoam cooler?

Probably safe enough, but I wouldn't wear it more than a season or two without trying to replace the 'impact absorbing material'...replacement parts like that may be available if it's a high end unit.

Or if you're a rider who really packs on the miles, a year or two will be plenty to use up a helmet.

the technological J · « **Reply #6 on:** October 06, 2009, 08:37:50 PM »

is it a high end helmet or a cheapo? if its a cheapo u got about 3 years to wear it(things never go bad when they say theres always a buffer to cover their butts).... and a shouei(is that how its spelled?) might be worth it..... but its ur head... i sense wise words will soon follow

HondaMan · « **Reply #7 on:** October 06, 2009, 09:22:56 PM »

Wow...
I don't want to get into the "works" of the DOT law that came out and started forcing "life limits" on helmets, which was intended for drag racing applications after a politically-connected NHRA racer and helmet manufacturer's son got hurt (head injury) after a big crash, but....helmets do not wear out on their own. They wear if they hit something solid with something heavy inside of them (like you), and after a crash, should be replaced.

Politics and litigation being what it has become in this country lately, this "life limit" on helmets was trumped up by several New York lawyers who got big $$ from the afore-mentioned party's company, to lobby the new DOT bill through Congress and ram it down our (and other's) throats. The helmet manufacturer, whom I will not name, but is an acquaintence, is a multi-millionaire as the direct result of this 'coup'.

I'm not going to discuss the age of my like-new helmets, either, all of which are Snell-approved: there have not been but 3% improvement in deceleration physics in these helmets since the NYC Z90.1 spec of 1972 became national law. It is outrageous to force anyone to replace perfectly good helmets with something less, which most of today's offerings are, than a 1970 Snell-rated skid lid. Only the $500 modern full-coverage roadrace-rated buckets are slightly (2%-5%) better, today, and this much difference will not make a helmet 'safer'. Try to find a 5-layer, fiberglass, hand-laid, cooked and tested shell with a 30-year rated adhesive life today for less than $700: impossible. They are all cast polycarbonate shells of one type or another, usable once, and can be damaged by falling off the bike seat to the concrete. The last hand-laid ones offered were from ARAI in 1986. No one makes any better than those were, today.

But they do cost a huge amount more than those did. I don't trust most of today's helmets: I've seen their test specs. The Snell foundation awards their label (if indeed they even still do) to the best of the year's crop, not necessarily the ones that were better than last year's group. The influx (and infection) of cheap goods from China and other similar operations recently has muddied the waters even more, now. I just had this discussion with a lawyer who was pulled over last year on his bike for some minor thing, and got a ticket for an "expired helmet sticker". His helmet was 6 years old at the time, and was used maybe 10 times as he usually wears his [older] open-faced one: this was his newer full-faced one. To call that helmet 'out-of-date' somehow is so ludicrous as to be a crime, perpetrated on us, the People.

Yes, I used to get crosswise with The Fuzz in the 1960s...I also have a Law Degree and a BS in Police Sciences, along with my Engineering degree....and lately, feel some of that '60s ire coming back to life, over stuff like this...

P.S....if anyone knows where I might find a hand-laid, fiberglass or Kevlar multi-direction-weave, multi-layered lid with at least 180 degrees of peripheral vision (I have 178 degrees of it) and weighs less than 2.5 pounds and costs less than $500, I'd like to hear of it...

(Rant over.)

Gorms · « **Reply #8 on:** October 06, 2009, 09:47:51 PM »

Thanks HondaMan, exactly the answer I wanted to hear and formulated myself (without details or any sort of supporting evidence whatsoever).

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #9 on:** October 07, 2009, 04:34:42 AM »

Can't agree with you there Hondaman - helmets break down over time due to simple chemistry - the bonding agents, styrofoam and other closed cell foams used all deteriorate over time they just accelrate in UV light. Oh and I say that from a position of knowledge as a chemist...

At the end of the day it's your head. You might get away with ten years rather than 5 before somthing deteriorates badly, you might not. If you think half price for a 3 year old NOS helmet is good then that's great, I'd be looking for 60% off myself to equate with the loss of shelf life.

It's all down to your personal standards, the chemistry is fact. Me, I value my head too much to even risk the thing that is supposed to protect me from injury. You can't spend the money you save in heaven...

HondaMan · « **Reply #10 on:** October 07, 2009, 09:04:42 AM »

Quote from: lordmoonpie on October 07, 2009, 04:34:42 AM

Can't agree with you there Hondaman - helmets break down over time due to simple chemistry - the bonding agents, styrofoam and other closed cell foams used all deteriorate over time they just accelrate in UV light. Oh and I say that from a position of knowledge as a chemist...

At the end of the day it's your head. You might get away with ten years rather than 5 before somthing deteriorates badly, you might not. If you think half price for a 3 year old NOS helmet is good then that's great, I'd be looking for 60% off myself to equate with the loss of shelf life.

It's all down to your personal standards, the chemistry is fact. Me, I value my head too much to even risk the thing that is supposed to protect me from injury. You can't spend the money you save in heaven...

Well, Lord, the [good] helmets made before 1995 didn't use styrofoam as the decelerating agent: that material is a late-comer, and appears in cheaper helmets. The hi-density foam that was the earmark of the Snell "first-pass" testing was a much different material, rated in decades of life stability. I agree with you: styrofoam is short-lived, but doesn't belong wrapped around one's head, either... $:-\$

BobbyR · « **Reply #11 on:** October 07, 2009, 09:21:29 AM »

There is some debate about Snell vs DOT. Snell seems obsessed with puncture resistance more than deceleration.

Don R · « **Reply #12 on:** October 07, 2009, 09:36:18 AM »

I pulled my old bell off the shelf [expired for nhra use] and was going to take a bike ride. the foam was gone inside. It was way loose, seemed strange because it was always so tight. Dang shame it was a Star FR with nomex liner and everything. Maybe I can get some pro's to autograph it and put it back on a shelf. cause nobody can use it now.
It's the same with our flywheels, seat belts, trans shields, arm restraints, fire suits. For seat belts at 150 passes during the life of the belts over 2 years, I spend about a dollar every time the car goes down the track. chassis tag also about a buck. At least I can use my current helmet on the bike too.

Hondell · « **Reply #13 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:23:15 AM »

Well here we go again. How about composite aircraft that are subject to 100 times the abuse our pampered helmets are. Do you replace your aircraft after 5 years

I'm guessing not. Maybe the liner in helmets deteriorates with use but I would like to see some unbiased real life studies on it.

BobbyR · « **Reply #14 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:48:15 AM »

I am with Hondell, I am not buying into a helmet that has had no impact and stored indoors most of it's life being unusable after 5 year is BS.
Mine is 11 years old and I will change it this winter. The newer ones are lighter and I can see some degradation mostly on the chin strap on my old one.

Gorms · « **Reply #15 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:49:14 AM »

I bought the helmet

JLeather · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2009, 08:06:14 AM »

I'm not getting into the debate of whether or not helmets wear out after 5 years, but I would like to point out that atleast part of the life-cycle that DOT gives a helmet is based on UV degradation as well. Therefore, a helmet that has been kept new in the box for 3 years has not been exposed to much UV and should therefore not have aged as much. Perhaps (and again, just using DOT as an example) it has only lost 1 year of it's 5 year life. There are no hard and fast numbers for this comparison, but just something to keep in mind that a helmet does age more slowly when not in use. I'd imagine that to cover their butts the DOT folks spec out a helmet life rating in terms of everyday use (worst case scenario). So if you're a weekend rider and you take good care of your helmets and store them in a good environment, in your house, out of light they likely last a good bit longer. If you left it on your garage shelf in direct sunlight and let it go through wild temp swings it'd likely not last as long. Whatever the DOT rating is you can bet it's in their favor and not yours.

754 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 08, 2009, 08:27:38 AM »

Funny how the Bell Star I sold this spring, & the open helmet I use that is 30+ yrs old, dont have the absorption material shrinking issues..!
They are both fibreglass.. just bought a new helmet for my kids, realized after I got it. its probably polycarbonate & made in China..

.. not my favorite stuff..

phrige · « **Reply #18 on:** October 08, 2009, 08:44:34 AM »

Hey hondaman,
high density foam that you mentioned, is that comparible to "High Density Poly Ethylene (HDPE) foam liner"?

http://www.nexlsports.com/index.php/cmd/technology

their helmets i believe use that high density PE foam
http://www.nexlsports.com/index.php/cmd/default/cPath/21

I've been looking into a new mutt im glad i stumbled upon this thread, i'd hate to spend my dough on a new one thats cheapo quality for obscene prices.

Simpson · « **Reply #19 on:** October 08, 2009, 03:48:28 PM »

After reading most of the thread, my opinion is rather mixed. On one hand I doubt that even an cheap/average modern helemt will lose much of it's protective characteristics after 3-5 years unless you drop it. Speaking with no data but just intution. On the the other hand, why on earth would you want to use a 10 year old helmet? If you ride your bike once a week, thats going to be one old funky nasty smelly outdated uncomfortable worn out old helmet! I mean come on. You can get snell rated helmets shipped to your house for 50 bucks. I just bought 3 KBC snell/DOT rated helmets shipped to my house for 150 dollars from the motorcyclesuperstore. The helmets were for me, girlfriend and the dog. Hey for those prices, even if there is a small chance Homer (the dog) decides to start riding, I got him covered. These helmets will get replaced in 3 years.

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #20 on:** October 09, 2009, 09:16:44 AM »

Guys, I think you miss the point here - the helmet won't fall apart after five years BUT there is enough degradation in the construction material that it will not offer the same level of protection. (The comparison to jet fighters is irrelevant - they're not made the same way with the same components.)

I have a nine year old Shoei which I stopped using after 5 years. I kept it because of the custom paint job on the back (see avatar). I keep it in the garage which is only lit with electric light, no windows. The garage is the same temperature and humidity all year round. Now at nine years of age the foam that would contact my head crumbles to the touch and the inner shell has started detaching from the outer shell. Hell I'm sure it's still wearable - but not on my head thank you. Let's be very clear here as well - this is materials degradation you cannot necessarily see. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Have you ever taped up a tear in a document with sticky tape and left it in the drawer for a couple of years only to find the tape drops off next time you open the document? It's the same principle with your helmet. You can probably wear it for 20 years but the level of protection it was designed for was over a long time back.

Like most things it comes down to your choice. The manufacturer is telling you "here's a date in the helmet for you to count five years from", it's entirely up to you whether you choose to take heed of that or to ignore it. My personal choice is not to ignore the advice of the chemists, standards agencies and specialist composite materials manufacturers who have been kind enough to provide that advice. If you choose to save a few bucks and do differently that's just perfect in your world, it doesn't figure in mine and that's perfect for me.

voxonda · « **Reply #21 on:** October 09, 2009, 09:25:58 AM »

In my years as a scrutineer at the Dutch Racing association helmets were not permitted after 4 years due to degradation thru UV radiation etc.
Believe me that Shoei, Arai, you name one, none of them will not take a chance of something happening with someone using one of their old(er) helmets. A lot of helmet manufacturers were even not permitted because they could not stand the tests. Mind you, it protects something you cannot replace!

Rob

ColinMc · « **Reply #22 on:** October 09, 2009, 10:12:45 AM »

I have two helmets that I don't wear anymore, one from the mid 80's I used to use while riding on the back of my dads bike that is now one of mine...and another from the late 90's from high school...the mid 80's one the liner is literally falling out of and the foam underneath is falling off in bits and pieces. Never been dropped and never fallen off the bike with it. The newer one the liner looks brand new, but I cut it in half to use as a demo helmet for the MSF course to show people how helmets are constructed...I was surprised to discover the foam that was under there...was all broken and crumbling as well...and not just where I cut it so it's not from that. It would just fall apart in your hands...

So say what you will about old helmets but my 400 dollar helmet from High School would have been useless if I had worn it (before cutting it in half lol) in a crash.

Deltarider · « **Reply #23 on:** October 09, 2009, 10:21:52 AM »

I did 20 years with the same Röhmer helmet and felt comfortable. When I informed five years after the purchase about the effect of UVlight, the shop (and importer by the way), that could easily have sold me a new one, explained the effect of UVlight was exaggerated on purpose by the industry. Up to this day, I've not seen proof of helmets that failed due to aging. Not any. Besides, most of the time my helmet is in the garage.

Duke McDukiedook · « **Reply #24 on:** October 09, 2009, 10:28:13 AM »

Bullet-proof vests have expiration dates on them also, would you be willing to wear an expired vest if your life was on the line?
Things fall apart over time, decay, entropy disorder.

Buy a new helmet every couple of years unless you don't think your brain and skull is worth it.

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Author Topic: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet? (Read 8832 times)