Author Topic: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?  (Read 8600 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2009, 09:25:34 AM »
Man you guys worry a lot..

 I cant remember what brand my helmet is, but I would be real suprised if there was any de-lamming going on, and it is  3 decades old..

  Funny  how no helmet maker , ever guarantees a helmet to work and do its job..

  I am staying away from them full face jobs, I have seen how it makes them  guys ride................................. ;).. lots of people dying with them things on...

I always wondered what made those riders drive like that, now I know!  ;D
Does anyone here remember [my idol when a kid] roadracer Rusty Bradley on Kawi in the early '70s? He once slid off the track under the side-wire (those are gone today), and the wire plucked his full-face Bell clean off his head. At the time, there was a national debate going on (much like this oil helmet thread, about whether the open-face was safer because it could be more easily removed, or should full-face come with quick-disconnects? All the 'damage' Rusty had was a red spot on his chin. Roadracers were split about 50/50 on open face or full-face helmets then.

In 1972 or 1973, I think it was Cycle Magazine that sponsored (or maybe just reported the results of) a wide test of lots of brands of helmets, just before the DOT got involved (NY standard Z90 was king, then). They were drop tested on flat things, sharp things, knife-edged things and pointy things, in accordance with the whole industriy's standard test practices, sort of as a "journalistic verification test" after Rusty Bradley's incident. The shell damages were carefully examined and the deceleration was monitored with instruments (accelerometers were REAL expensive in those days, today they cost $5). The protective elements inside (styrofoam or the better foams that are molded into place, made from 2-part urethanes and the like) were tested with water, gasoline, oil, and intesnse UV light (presuming, I guess, that you would leave your helmet on the helmet holder and the sun or rain would get it, or you would mistake it for your gas cap or oil filler hole...) to see if the linings would suffer damage.

The final analysis: with a NEW helmet, all of the tests were passed on every brand during the 3 shock tests (i.e. on something flat, something sharp, something pointy), with the styrofoam liners all showing some degree of permanent deformation after the impact(s) and replacement was recommended. All of the helmets made with resilient liners (urethane in those days) recovered their 'dents' after 48 hours. Of those that were then retested, the 'dents' returned, but the deceleration remained nearly the same (with 5%) on the second tests. None of the styrofoam-lined helmets were second-tested, as the liners were at minimum depth after the first tests. All of the polycarbonate shells suffered permanent damage from the drop tests, all of the fiberglass helmets received minor scratches. The moral of their story: if you have the cheaper poly-shelled, styro-lined helmet, replaced after every incident. If you have the more expensive fiberglass shelled, resilient-liner types, inspect after 48 hours to see if the dents recover and the shell shows no further cracking. No recommendation was made to replace any of the more expensive varieties after these tests.

The best of the best in those tests were Bell, Arai, Shoei. The least expensive were Wal-Mart, K-Mart and Western Auto stores' own brands (my, how times have changed!).

...come to think of it, I think the AMA sponsored this test...they were young, then...
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Offline 754

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2009, 09:45:44 AM »
Not only do they ride like that, quite a few appear to believe that it lessens the need for boots, glovers, long pants, sleeves, etc..

 Squids, they must be breeding...
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2009, 04:31:24 AM »
Quote
Delta - go and read the technical journals there's tons of evidence in decent scientific publications supporting this.  And don't think that the law is any measure of this either - especially not in the Netherlands, hell you've only just passed a law to stop bestiality! Listen to your countryman, Rob, above. He's a sensible and informed chap worthyof consideration....

Well, Lordmoonpie, you have convinced me, honestly.
A bit strange that immediately after you've come with your 'tons of evidence' (of which you fail to produce one milligram BTW), you advise me to listen to 'sensible countryman' Rob. As if your 'tons of evidence' weren't already enough! Thanks again, you're too good.
Jeeez, I sure hope you'll be able to get that bestiality of your mind.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 08:31:04 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline dilbone

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2009, 07:11:10 AM »

EDIT: Oh and another thing you ever put "Brand new" but old brake pads on a car or bike? See how long they end up lasting...but they are brand new right? Should be fine...no big dael I saved a few bucks.

So you're comparing a helmet to brake pads????

So I shouldn't pick up a set of brake pads that have been sitting on a shelf for a couple of years in the box?????  So now brake pads are UV sensitive?  Do you ask how long those pads have been on the shelf when you buy them?  I don't get the analogy


I'm comparing them to 5 or even 10 year old NOS brake pads...hell even 3 years. We purge any pads that are more than 3 years old out of our inventory, they are sent back to the manufacturer, and are required by law to be recycled and can be made into new brake pads but not simply reboxed. We do this for liability reasons...we lose money on it, so does the manufacturer...so i'm guessing we do it for a reason...right? Plus I have used old stock pads on a bike before, they wear out MUCH quicker and sometimes even fail completely after going through a few heat cycles. So yes I am comparing a helmet which "wears" out over time even if not in use, to brake pads which "wear" out even if not in use over a period of time.

I would guess it's being done more because we live in such a litigious society than anything else. When you have people awarded millions for spilling hot coffee on themselves I can only guess that manufacturers are scared to death to have any questions brought up about the "safety" of their products.  This is indicative of our American society...new is always better.  Imagine if Europeans had our mindset.  There would be no leaning tower of Pisa, the Coliseum would have been torn down as a "safety hazard," There would be no structures left that had any historical significance because we'd just tear it down and build something new.  I'm not saying that this is the reason and cause every time but I think that this way of thinking has infected every part of our culture.  New is always better...

Offline 754

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2009, 08:18:58 AM »
Racing Sanctioning bodies, and helmet  makers all are playing the CYA game.......... & I dont blame them..


 Now if a manufacturer can do anything to increase sales, or steer their product towards being a fashion accessory (ie, it will be out of style in a few years) they will jump all over it.

 
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Offline dilbone

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2009, 08:50:18 AM »
Racing Sanctioning bodies, and helmet  makers all are playing the CYA game.......... & I dont blame them..


 Now if a manufacturer can do anything to increase sales, or steer their product towards being a fashion accessory (ie, it will be out of style in a few years) they will jump all over it.

 

+1

Offline 754

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2009, 09:13:58 AM »
Funny helmet story..

 Mentioned this thread to a buddy last night..
 He said I dont know exactly how old my helmet is, but I remember how I got it..

 He went to the HD dealer to get something for his bike or whatever. He parked near the dumpster, beside it I think, and set his helmet on the closed dumpster and went inside,

 When he left he went outside and his  helmet was gone..  dumpster was empty.. :o.. and then he remembered seeing the garbage truck drive in , while he was inside.. :o

 So he went back in and had to buy a new one... scuffed it up before he wore it.. too...
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

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Offline crazypj

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2009, 09:22:10 AM »
From the little I understand,  the Z90 test is pretty meaningless.
 What speed is it carried out at ? 13mph?
 in all the accidents I've witnessed (or been involved in  ;D) never has helmet come  in contact with edged or pointy objects, every case has been sliding so abrasion resistance would be a better test.
 My ARAI is about 14yrs old and probably still a better helmet than many out there brand new

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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2009, 11:29:14 PM »
Well, Lordmoonpie, you have convinced me, honestly.
A bit strange that immediately after you've come with your 'tons of evidence' (of which you fail to produce one milligram BTW), you advise me to listen to 'sensible countryman' Rob. As if your 'tons of evidence' weren't already enough! Thanks again, you're too good.
Jeeez, I sure hope you'll be able to get that bestiality of your mind.
Heck Delta - you think I'm gonna spend my valuable garage time typing stuff into search engines for you? Go to Google scientific and let your fingers do the walking, there is bucket loads of research for you to pore over and still convince yourself you're right. Geez some people want everything in life on a plate!
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Offline Beans

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2009, 12:25:33 AM »

 My ARAI is about 14yrs old and probably still a better helmet than many out there brand new

PJ


I love my 14+ year old Arai.     I did buy a new helmet though the other day and do believe their is a life span on these helmets. I mean would you use a 10 year old condom with someone who has a std?   I sure wouldn't.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2009, 05:35:47 AM »
Quote
I mean would you use a 10 year old condom with someone who has a std?   I sure wouldn't.
I don't see why one shouldn't trust an old condom that has proved it's effectiveness for  a decade. Heck, I inherited my dad's and up to this day there's nothing wrong with it. As long as you flip it inside out every now and then, what's the problem?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 06:18:09 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline The_Crippler

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2009, 08:38:41 AM »
I don't see why one shouldn't trust an old condom that has proved it's effectiveness for  a decade. Heck, I inherited my dad's and up to this day there's nothing wrong with it. As long as you flip it inside out every now and then, what's the problem?

Oh....*hurk*....that's not right...

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2009, 09:49:38 AM »
This fresh from Arai customer services today...

"Arai & Snell recommend that a helmet should be replaced 5 years after the date of first use or 7 years after the date of manufacture, this information can be found either embossed or stitched onto the helmets chin strap & in the handbook supplied.
 
After around 5 years of use it is the inner EPS shell of the helmet that will begin to degrade & harden, if  the helmet is subjected to a impact the inner shell may not dissipate excess impact energy & protect the head effectively as per its original design. "
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2009, 12:22:52 PM »
cos if they said it would last longer they couldn't sell new ones every year?
 I fully believe its true.
 As material science improves its possible to engineer shorter lifespan but maintain 90%+ of original until that date (bit like 'self destruct' CD's, 24hrs-poof)
Built in obsolescence is nothing new.

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Offline ColinMc

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2009, 01:00:27 PM »
I think saying that it's a marketing ploy is absurd. Plenty of people buy a new helmet every year because they love having the newest coolest helmet, and plenty of people don't ever buy new ones...and there are a crapload of people somewhere in between. Either way the helmet companies are making money.

I don't care what anyone else does, but replacing mine every 5 or 6 years at the most has served me well. I've been in a few crashes where my helmets have saved my life. Would I have been fine with an old helmet...who knows...but all i know is my system has been working for me and i'm not about the change it now. Especially when safety is the issue.

To each their own. But to me it's just not worth the risk...besides what everyone thinks is a "marketing technique" or "scare tactic" there has to be some grain of truth involved. Hell i've worked with fiberglass and resins and restored enough things made of those things to KNOW for a fact that stuff dries out and becomes very brittle after only a few years. So I won't be adding anything else to this thread besides what a basic internet search can discover from either SNELL, various helmet companies, and misc other resources...

So in short, ride around with your old helmets on all you want guys, but the only way to know when and if it's gonna work the way it should...is to put it to the ultimate test in a cash on your head. Which I hope never happens...regardless of what kind or how old/new of a helmet you are wearing. Ride safe.
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Offline The_Crippler

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2009, 01:42:57 PM »
I don't care what anyone else does, but replacing mine every 5 or 6 years at the most has served me well. I've been in a few crashes where my helmets have saved my life. Would I have been fine with an old helmet...who knows...but all i know is my system has been working for me and i'm not about the change it now. Especially when safety is the issue.


Hmm...well, maybe you should at least modify the part of your system that gets you in multiple crashes by the time you're 26...

 ;) ;D ;)

Offline ColinMc

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2009, 01:46:33 PM »
Lol, well I race as well...so it happens. Twice on the road though...but at 26 I DO have well over 200k miles riding experience...so I guess my percentage of miles per accident aint bad  ;)
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Offline Gorms

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2009, 02:47:28 PM »
"...a helmet should be replaced 5 years after the date of first use or 7 years after the date of manufacture..."

This is the best answer to my original question yet.  A new helmet can sit on the shelf for 2 years and when bought, still has its entire usable life still available.  According to them, a helmet will wear and break down with usage, but minimally (if at all) when sitting on s shelf in the box.

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2009, 04:41:16 AM »
Makes your purchase a very good one hey Gorms?  ;)
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Offline Gorms

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2009, 08:10:35 AM »
Indeed it does. :)

Offline myhondas

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2009, 08:55:14 AM »
Which, by the way, is exactly what I said to begin with.... you paid 40% of the retail cost and 3 gone of 5 years is 60% loss.
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Offline Gorms

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Re: Buying a NEW 3 year old helmet?
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2009, 06:01:44 PM »
No.  Lets (generously) count the 3rd year on the shelf as the first year of usage life (previous post states 2 years shelf life plus 5 years usage life).  I then technically have 4 years left.  That's 80%.  I paid 37%.