Topic: Looks like we are going to need a new section

[Terry in Australia]

To each his/her own. Personally if I see yet another harley-knock-off-cruiser I thiknk I'm going to puke

LOL...and I feel almost exactly the reverse.  To me, all road-racers look identical to me.  9 times out of 10, unless I can find a name plate on them I have no idea which is which.

You know, I've got to agree. Back in the 1970's the Jap bike manufacturers took the world by storm with their multi cylinder "Superbikes" and at the same time, killed off the British bike manufacturers, and if it wasn't for Ronnie Raygun putting tariff's on Jap imports, Harleys would have gone the same way, tit's up.

Right up until recently, the Jap manufacturers have maintained their dominance of the market with their "Boy Racer" oriented machines, combining their continually updated super powerful engines with styling cues mostly "borrowed" from the European design houses. These bikes are single minded racers for the road with incredible power and handling abilities, but totally useless in the real world, with paper thin seats, footpegs located just under a riders armpits, and handlebars so low they could be attached to the front axle.

Whereas in the old days you could buy low bars and rearset pegs for our bikes, now you can buy higher bars and lower pegs for modern sportsbikes, because they're just too frigging uncomfortable. Most sports bikes I see for sale have super low miles on the clock, simply because they are just too uncomfortable to ride for long distances. "Form over function", or maybe "function over form", but either way, no compromise to comfort, that's what you're getting, take it or leave it.

Most cruiser or tourer riders that I know are ex-sports bike riders who, while they appreciate the technology of a modern sportsbike, want something more than just a copy of a race bike that they can't ride to the local milk bar without herniating a disc. Which is probably why here in Oz, Harley Davidson and Triumph are doing so well sales wise, to the point where 6 of the top selling big bikes in Oz is built by Triumph or Harley.

I'm interested in where the Jap manufacturers will go to re-claim their dominance, their cruisers are just copies of Harleys only without the "cool" factor, (chicks definitely do not dig Jap cruisers) and their tourers are just copies of BMW's, and I imagine their future "retro" bikes will be copies of Triumphs. If the Japs don't lift their game and come up with an original idea like they did with the original CB750, I think that in years to come, they'll be back to just building little commuter bikes and dirt bikes. Only time will tell. Cheers, Terry.    

[KB02]

Terry, that made me laugh. 

Good points, too. 

[The_Crippler]

Yeah, Terry...well put. 

I like my Jap cruiser - not for any perceived "cool" factor, but because it looks nice, is super reliable and I can ride it through multiple states in a day (and have) comfortably. 

If I had the cash for a totally secondary toy, I'd consider a crotch rocket for fun.  That's part of the reason I'm going cafe on my project - it might not be the most comfortable thing in the end, but it will be fun.

So, kudos again Terry, for putting that in a way that spelled it out without getting into fightin' words.  Well done.

[BobbyR]

I read and article a few years ago discussing why the Motorcycle Industry was runing into a problem. The Sportbike was coming to a point where it no longer evolve. They were abut as fast as they could be. They all look alike. One division of my company makes motorcycles and one of my coworkers visited it. He saw sportbikes going down two identical lines. He was being shown how parts were being delivered to the assembly line just in time for each machine. They took him to the ATV line since it had more diversity of parts. A model destined for Germany with unique wiring and labels was in front of a machine headed for Sweden or anywhere. This allowed them to avoid having separate runs even at the model level. Very clever.
 
He went back to the bike line since he rides and knows his bikes. Lo and behold what he thought were identical bikes were in fact two different brands. They were contracting manufacture for the competition. Until the graphics went on, they all looked the same.

When I go to a bike dealer, I see either sportbikes or Harley type twins of various sizes, nothing stands out. The Honda Fury stands out, but that's it. I think they have painted themselves into a corner. They called the Honda, Kawi, etc the Universal Japanese Motorcycle. Now we have the Universal Twin or Sportbike.

Do they reach back into the past as Triumph did, build Bobbers, Cafes?.  I am at a loss as to where they will go next. I am sure they are there also.

Last night I was looking at a absolutely mint Vincent Black Lightning. In some ways it looked more advanced than what is on the street today.

[myhondas]

You know, I thought that the 2004-05 vtx rune was a great looking and sweet riding bike of the future. guess the 26k tag was what did it in. first time a factory took a show concept bike and actually went into production with it. then earlier this year, they came out with the fury, which is the first factory built chopper. Honda needs to continue to push the envelope and come up with new concepts and bikes. In this case, I think they succeeded with the motor, but failed with the machine. I not really sure in which direction they should go, but I don't think it's they way they are going. IMHO

[bucky katt]

those bigassed mufflers also hold the catalyitic converters as well in many cases.

[736cc]

That has to be the best sport-touring bike ever built, I'll bet 1 ride on it will convince anyone. Honda has been overdue to make such a statement in a motorcycle. Thats my next bike, I haven't owned a new bike in 20 years.
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[bill440cars]

      Funny how there was a lot of talk about the muffler and some about the sport bike look, but I didn't see where anyone even noticed the details about the transmission.


     Check this out:

            "Transmission:   Six-speed (VFR1200F) / Six-speed automatic with two modes and manual mode (VFR1200F with Dual Clutch Automatic Transmission)"

                                                             

[chippyfive50]

SOHC4
Single Over Head Cam 4

Looks like two cams to me.  So, it really needs a different web site.

At first I liked it.  Then I imagined myself in the riding position on it.  Now my back and wrists hurt. (I imagine.)

I do like the 1200 bit.

Muffler is... distinctive.

SOHC2 x 2 = SOHC4?.... but it does look uncomfortable,  a test ride will have to be administered.

"For such a large V-4, the engine is relatively compact. Aiding in this is the use of single overhead cams (the Unicam design found on Honda's four-stroke motocross bikes)."

[MJL]

I'm interested in where the Jap manufacturers will go to re-claim their dominance, their cruisers are just copies of Harleys only without the "cool" factor, (chicks definitely do not dig Jap cruisers) and their tourers are just copies of BMW's, and I imagine their future "retro" bikes will be copies of Triumphs. If the Japs don't lift their game and come up with an original idea like they did with the original CB750, I think that in years to come, they'll be back to just building little commuter bikes and dirt bikes. Only time will tell. Cheers, Terry.    

Honda is coming back with a DOHC CB 1100. I posted about it in the open forum.

http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2009/09/honda-cb1100-to-be-unveiled-at-tokyo.html

[fasturd]

From 800 to 1200? Hmmm, strange. I wouldn't be surprised if Honda goes the Cadillac route with most of the time just 2 cilinders 'at work' and no.3 and 4. for when extra power is needed.

Personally I can't get excited anymore with new combustionbased engines. It's high time to pull the plug of this outdated stinking fossil with far to many parts.

I'll wait for the electric motorcycle and, yes, it is coming!

Seriously? You want an electric motorcycle?

For me motorcycles are not just a tool for riding to work... I enjoy getting away on them. Being tied down to an extension cord would drive me crazy. When I run out of a tank of "energy" I want to go buy some more and keep going... It is going to be a long cold day in hell before ANY manufacturer brings out an electric motorcycle you can do an Iron Butt on.

I could se one for riding to the quicky mart for a lottery ticket or maybe 2 passes at the drag strip, but I cannot envision any long distance ability any time soon.

Sooo... The mufler of the 1200 IS not atractive.

Someone else mentioned long service intervals? I wouldn't count on it. The current Vtech VFRs have fairly short intervals and they are HIDIOUSLY expensive. I want this new V4 to work, I owned an 86 VF1000R and that motor was the BOMB! A 1200 must be like a bunker buster. My current ZX12 is aprox 180 at the rear wheel. If Honda can come close to that (it will) but with MORE torque you can count me in unless the tank is so small and the milage so bad that the non-existant electric motorcycle might be able to go farther...

Neat to see Honda sticking there neck so far out there this year!

[MJL]

Why isn't there a diesel powered tourer?  You could get killer mileage out of one.

[fasturd]

Just my opinion, but probably because they stink and make funny noises.


my .02

[KB02]

Just my opinion, but probably because they stink and make funny noises.

...same as a Harley... Opps... did I type that out loud?     

I jest, but honestly I have wondered the same thing. I mean, I have seen bikes with diesel shoe-horned into them and they look like trash. But if a major manufacturer were to put their mind to the task, I don't see why one couldn't be created that would like nice. Plus, diesels are known for good torque, right? A tourer or a cruiser would be a great place to put one.

I have long said, too, that if you can build an electric motorcycle that can match the performance and abilities of today's gas engined bikes, I'd be willing to buy one. They're getting closer, but the problem is longevity. I like to be able to go out for an all day ride. Electric bikes can't do that... yet...

[bikebitzofvt]

SOHC4
Single Over Head Cam 4

Looks like two cams to me.  So, it really needs a different web site.

At first I liked it.  Then I imagined myself in the riding position on it.  Now my back and wrists hurt. (I imagine.)

I do like the 1200 bit.

Muffler is... distinctive.

Actually, it uses a Unicam like the CR250/450F - only one cam above each cylinder
I'm not buying the new styling one bit - makes me miss my 92 VFR750 all the more.

[greasy j]

Personally I can't get excited anymore with new combustionbased engines. It's high time to pull the plug of this outdated stinking fossil with far to many parts.

I'll wait for the electric motorcycle and, yes, it is coming!

I kind of agree. I love old bikes, muscle cars, whatnot. but at some time we run out of gas. anyone read world war z?

now, we could end up with a situation where we get so low, people with gas guzzling classics will be #$%*ed. rationing, etc. if we head this off by having the masses switching to another power source there may be plenty of reserves left for old technology enthusiasts such as ourselves. you drive your electric to work safe in the knowledge that there is plenty of gas left to run your classic on the weekends.

imagine sitting in the garage staring at your bike. if only I'd have saved a few gallons...

[TwoTired]

...but at some time we run out of gas. anyone read world war z?

World war z was FICTION!  Are you basing life judgments on fiction?

Further, we won't run out of gas until governments and/or industry decide to stop production.
Until then, they will continue to propagandize the alleged short supply, to pull more money from your pocket.
...And you WILL let them.


For those arguing that a single cam on each head is not two cams for 4 cylinders...
I suppose you will also believe that a car is just a motor cycle with 4 wheels?   They just have extra wheels side by side.
Spin doctors, anyone?


As for electric vehicles, they will only become popular when there is an energy distribution system as widespread as gas stations to recharge them.

I just don't see the current gas distributors cheating their profit by adding electric recharge "pumps" to their stations unless they can make more profit on that (as well as recover their investment) than the gas they sell.  At that point, the electric vehicle costs exceed that of gas powered vehicles, and the electric interest will wane.  Then the oil companies will say, "I told you so" yank all the, now unprofitable, electric recharge "pumps", and then up the price of gas further because you have no choice but to pay for their energy.

Just look at all the energy producers, they control and demand the prices they do by limiting the public's choices to those where they can set the profit levels to their liking.

But, all this is even off- topic within this off-topic thread.

[greasy j]

...but at some time we run out of gas. anyone read world war z?

World war z was FICTION!  Are you basing life judgments on fiction?

Further, we won't run out of gas until governments and/or industry decide to stop production.
Until then, they will continue to propagandize the alleged short supply, to pull more money from your pocket.
...And you WILL let them

yikes, mellow out guy. it's just a book I know that, making a point is all. and you can't say fiction hasn't had a huge impact on peoples life judgements. from Don Quijote inspiring travel to Harry Potter inspiring owl purchases.

and gas won't last forever even if we really, really want it to.

not into fighting over this, though. that will be my last on this subject. opinions are like...

[The_Crippler]

Just my opinion, but probably because they stink and make funny noises.


my .02

Well, great strides have been made in 4-wheel diesels with the stinky factor.  Me, I'm thinking more along the lines of how cold-blooded some bikes are on chilly mornings now...Diesel enginescould be much, much worse.

[Terry in Australia]

I've got to agree with Lloyd on this one. I've got no doubt that if oil companies can make synthetic oil that is superior in every way to mineral oil, that they can (and probably already have) create synthetic gasoline that is cheap to produce and will work as well, or better than the stuff we're using now, with much lower emissions.

As an example, I watched Australia's premier car endurance race yesterday, big Aussie V8 "Touring cars" producing upwards of 600 BHP running non stop (except for pit stops of course) for 600 miles at speeds of up to 200 miles per hour, running on "E85", which of course is 85% Ethanol. Apart from 1 car dropping a valve (not unusual in car racing) all the other cars that survived the carnage that endurance racing produces, seemed to go pretty well.

Over here in Oz where we don't have nuclear power, all our electric generation is done by coal fired electric plants, so while we all think that electric cars and bikes are "cleaner", the generation of power, not to mention the production of millions more electric motors and batteries, wipes out any real benefits. E85 fuel reduces CO2 emissions "from the well to the wheel" by 50%, so here at least, low emission "E" fuels are a lot more sensible than electric.

That suits me fine, the only electric vehicle I'll probably ever own will be one of those 4 wheel electric scooters I see the old folk around here riding around on, and there's no rush, I'm enjoying being anti-social and making lots of noise on my current mounts, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

[Gordon]

For those arguing that a single cam on each head is not two cams for 4 cylinders...
I suppose you will also believe that a car is just a motor cycle with 4 wheels?   They just have extra wheels side by side.
Spin doctors, anyone?

One cam for intake and exhaust is a Single cam engine, regardless of how many heads an engine has.  That's fact, not spin.  My Subaru boxer engine is a Dual Overhead Cam engine, in spite of the fact that it has two cylinder heads.  You don't call it a Quad Overhead Cam just because it has four separate cam shafts.   

[Terry in Australia]

Actually, a single overhead camshaft engine requires only one camshaft for the engine to operate, so while this new Honda V twin has a single camshaft in each head, it still requires two camshafts for the engine to operate.

Using that logic, at best, each bank of cylinders "might" be considered single overhead twins.

Semantics aside, it's an entirely different engine (not to mention bike) from ours, so why is anyone suggesting that these new V twins should be accepted as SOHC4's? Cheers, Terry.    

[Gordon]

Semantics aside, it's an entirely different engine (not to mention bike) from ours, so why is anyone suggesting that these new V twins should be accepted as SOHC4's? Cheers, Terry.    

Agreed.  It's a completely different engine and doesn't belong in the same group as our bikes, but it is still a single overhead cam engine design. 

[MJL]

Actually, a single overhead camshaft engine requires only one camshaft for the engine to operate, so while this new Honda V twin has a single camshaft in each head, it still requires two camshafts for the engine to operate.

Using that logic, at best, each bank of cylinders "might" be considered single overhead twins.

Semantics aside, it's an entirely different engine (not to mention bike) from ours, so why is anyone suggesting that these new V twins should be accepted as SOHC4's? Cheers, Terry.    

Single overhead cam... that is one cam in the head. Two heads = two cams.  A single cam engine in this case would be a pushrod motor.

As for an electric bike, I live 10 miles from work, and most of the places I ride to are within a few miles. I'd have one for work commuting and keep the 750 for the highway.

[fasturd]

Just my opinion, but probably because they stink and make funny noises.


my .02

Well, great strides have been made in 4-wheel diesels with the stinky factor.  Me, I'm thinking more along the lines of how cold-blooded some bikes are on chilly mornings now...Diesel enginescould be much, much worse.
[/quote

I agree imagine how long a standard motorcycle battery will last heating up glow plugs and turning over a cold diesel...Yes great strides have been made look at Audi racing cars the diesels kicked ass...But that isnt a bike for everyday fun. Kawasaki makes a diesel version of the klr650 for the army funny that hasnt made it to the street.