Author Topic: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?  (Read 5449 times)

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Offline BLUE71TURBO

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OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« on: October 09, 2009, 04:55:13 PM »
What type of oil coolers do you guy's use ?  I have seen all of the types on ebay, new, used , aftermarket and stock off of newer bikes. Any pictures of installed coolers will be helpful.  ;D  JON G.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2009, 05:10:37 PM »
None.

The stock SOHC4 bike on average streets and in average weather doesn't need an added oil cooler.

Now, if the engine is modified so as to make much more specific heat and you actually run the engine so it makes this heat most of the time and the weather is way above average, then an oil cooler just might save the oil and ultimately the engine.

And yes, it can hurt the engine under certain street and weather conditions.

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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2009, 06:05:52 PM »
...but Lloyd...

:D
just a quick addendum q.
The 650s are another beast altogether, in theory being overbored 550s.  The 650s from 82 and up had oil coolers factory installed.  Would that then mean that older ones maybe should be retrofitted if Honda's engineers felt they would be a good idea?
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Offline eurban

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2009, 06:48:01 PM »
On my 836 kitted 750 I run a DOHC 650 stock Honda (probably 83-85ish) with a Lockhart thermostat and an aftermarket made for the 750 adapter plate.  I believe Aussie Terry can set you up with the adapter plate and a decent cooler. . . . .
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 05:42:23 AM by eurban »

Offline Shenanigans

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 07:02:11 PM »
I have a lockhart cooler. I think they are decent looking and they seem pretty common on a lot of older bikes. See a bunch on of the vertical mount kind on Harleys.

I also cut a small sized matched rectangular sheet of aluminum that I can mount on the back of the oil cooler so the cooler fins dont get airflow, flow though, and dont over cool the oil. If I am ever somewhere that cold. Not that I have used it, but I do HAVE it  ;D

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2009, 07:16:51 PM »
...but Lloyd...

:D
just a quick addendum q.
The 650s are another beast altogether, in theory being overbored 550s.  The 650s from 82 and up had oil coolers factory installed.  Would that then mean that older ones maybe should be retrofitted if Honda's engineers felt they would be a good idea?

No. I don't believe so.

As you pointed out the 650s are hopped up 550's  More displacement, bigger cam, lean burn carbs, more restrictive exhaust, etc.  All these add to the heat buildup of the engine.   I would also like to see/measure whether the fin area of the 650 cylinders and/or head were also increased on the 650, to help shed that heat into the air passing by.  Are 650 cylinder fins the same area as the 550?

Back when these bikes were new, oil coolers were being demanded by uneducated customers who saw them on race bikes (that certainly >did< need them).  Manufacturers started adding them in response, so customers would think they were buying a bike "just like" the one they saw being raced.  It didn't matter if the race bikes were in a radically different state of tune than a street bike (or rebuilt after every race).  The Customers could "see" the oil cooler, therefore a bike with an oil cooler must be a faster, more powerful bike.  I believe Honda added the oil cooler more for marketing reasons than actual technical necessity.

Later, when bikes were being engineered from marketing specs. (reflecting consumer demand) an oil cooler was a given, so the total package was engineered to make the oil cooler a requirement and integral part of overall cooling, in order to keep the oil from degrading quickly.  Also, later bikes started extending the oil change interval as well, and an oil cooler can help oil survive longer, with the newer engine developing more power (many were water cooled, as well).   It's not that you can't take advantage of an oil cooler to help an engine cool if you route the oil specifically to hot spots where heat can be transferred into the oil.  It's just that the SOHC4 engine does not have such oil routings for that specific task.

None of this means an oil cooler is an improvement on an engine that was never designed to require it.  The cooling fins cool the engine and the engine cools the oil in these old bikes.  The tail does not wag the dog.  The cooling fins on the engine are massive for a specific reason.  This is where the vast majority of the heat from the engine is transferred to the air passing over it.  Certainly some small part of the engine's heat can be transferred to the oil and a cooler can help remove it.   But, that is more to address oil survivability/extended service than the engine's survivability.   (engine oil is a very poor conductor of heat, btw.  One of the reasons why liquid cooled engines don't use oil for that purpose, water/glycol transfers heat far faster.)

For the heat exchange analysis, there is also much heat that escapes the engine via the exhaust, btw.

I don't know enough about the 650 to really state that the oil cooler was only a marketing geegaw.  (I do have high suspicion, but that is just an opinion at this point.)  Knowing the cooling fin area would be key in making an analysis.  What is the recommended oil change interval for the 650?  What were it's output power ratings?

Still, the 650 oil cooler existence does not in any way prove that such a device is necessary on previous designs, any more than the existence of water cooling on later bikes means that device should be added to earlier designs.

IMO.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline 754

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2009, 08:00:36 PM »
Used to have a Lockhart 700 with threaded ports, did not get to use it..
 Now I have a smaller Lockhart with threaded ports dont know the number.. hope to use it next year.
 

 I prefer threaded ports so you can run real braided lines.
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2009, 08:20:18 PM »
I ran a Derale competition oil cooler on CB590 race bike,it had braided lines and threaded ports.Bill
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2009, 11:26:22 PM »
Shenanigans,
Combined with your remarks, you have posted the funniest picture. I mean: look at that mattress and where it rests. That's a true intelligent design for cooling. ;D
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 11:36:36 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline 754

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 08:50:47 AM »
That why you run an oil cooler , increase the load carring capacity of the bike!

 Maybe he had it down there to keep (himself) warmer while riding in the cool fall weather last year....
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 09:32:09 AM »
I always enjoy reading Lloyd's posts. They are always very well thought out and definitely informative and thought provoking. I am usually in agreement but one part of his post stated "But, that is more to address oil survivability/extended service than the engine's survivability". We all know that our engines depend on the oil as the main factor, but not the only factor, for survivabilty. Oil coolers are designed to cool hot oil to more reasonable temps which protects oil from potential degradation which possibly extends oil life which hopefully extends engine life. The other main factor is the rider and the use/abuse of the bike. There is no replacement for proper maintenance of antique designs aka 40 year old technology of that period and we can only go so far with retrofitting more modern technology. Change yer oil boys! 
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Offline Shenanigans

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2009, 11:13:27 AM »
Shenanigans,
Combined with your remarks, you have posted the funniest picture. I mean: look at that mattress and where it rests. That's a true intelligent design for cooling. ;D

Im telling you, best of both worlds!  ;D
   This pretty much sums it up.   76' CB592 cafe. 69 750 project, 03 CBR954, 75 750 super sport.

Offline hymodyne

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2009, 12:04:25 PM »
FWIW,
I added a s650 nighthawk oil cooler to my 550 engine, with the help of one of Terry from OZ's oil plate adapters.

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Offline Deltarider

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2009, 12:35:02 PM »
Quote
I added a s650 nighthawk oil cooler to my 550 engine, with the help of one of Terry from OZ's oil plate adapters.
And?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2009, 12:39:36 PM »
I am usually in agreement but one part of his post stated "But, that is more to address oil survivability/extended service than the engine's survivability". We all know that our engines depend on the oil as the main factor, but not the only factor, for survivabilty. Oil coolers are designed to cool hot oil to more reasonable temps which protects oil from potential degradation which possibly extends oil life which hopefully extends engine life. The other main factor is the rider and the use/abuse of the bike. There is no replacement for proper maintenance of antique designs aka 40 year old technology of that period and we can only go so far with retrofitting more modern technology. Change yer oil boys!  

I think you may have missed the point Jerry.   But, I do agree with your ending statements.

The oil change interval for the SOHC4 during the 70's was 1500 miles.  (No oil cooler installed from the factory.)
My 84 CB700SC has an oil cooler, and uses part of the frame tubing for cooling, as well.  The oil change service interval is 4000 miles.  (It has 72000 miles on it now.)
Oil formulation did not change that much from 78 to 84, yet the service interval WAS changed.  One major variable was the incorporation of an oil cooler.
The 84 SC is a very low maintenance bike.  Hydraulic valves, electronic ignition, shaft drive, leaves only oil changes as the most frequent and almost exclusive regular maintenance item to perform.  

At the serious risk of turning this into yet another oil thread.  I will state that oil does have a temperature where it begins to break down.  The more frequent and the more intense the excursion beyond that limit, the faster the total volume of oil, and its quality, in the bike degrades.  The degradation in the usual multi-vis oils is the breakdown of the additive package that makes oil behave like thicker oil when it is hot (within limits).  When those long chain molecules breakdown, the oil reverts to properties of it's base stock, which is the lower number in the multi-vis rating.  Lower viscosity oil does not present the film strength to bearing surfaces (keeping them separate and lowering friction) than a higher viscosity oil at operating temperature.
However, the reason why we don't just use a straight 40 or 50W oil is because the engine is not always at operating temp, and we need lubrication and oil flow when the oil is cold.  Oil the consistency of honey or molasses is just not going to flow and lube the engine during start up.  Pretty much the cam will starve and wear will accelerate there, and you can forget about splash oiling the cylinder walls and wrist pins.   So, a base stock of 10W is recommended, so as not to wear out the engine before it gets warmed up.  The challenge then, is to keep the oil from overtemp and breaking down the long chain additives that make the oil have better film strength when hot.  Or, keeping the oil within the safe operating range that the engine designer specified or expected during the engine's service life.

There is more than one source of heat within the motor.
Combustion, and friction are fairly obvious.  However, an often overlooked source is within the rod and main bearing journals.  If you try to compress oil, it generates its own heat.  The more pressure you exert on the oil in these places, the higher the heat spikes.  Like many materials it is not just the absolute heat but also the time duration of the over range heat event that determines the breakdown characteristics. (Pass your finger though a flame quickly and it feels warm temporarily, hold you finger in the flame and will begin to destruct.)  A study I found years ago measured heat spikes of oil in rod and main journals of over 1000 F.  The heat spike tightly linked to the engine's power output.  Low power produced very small heat increases.  High power produced far higher heat spikes.  This heated oil is ejected from the journal, and cooled by the next surface it touches.  Which in the SOHC4 design is the engine casting.  The engine case and cooling fins have already cooled the oil before it ever reaches the oil sump or scavenge pump at the
bottom.  Still, the oil heat contributes to the overall temp of the engine cases, which is an important factor in heat transfer.  If it is not obvious already, an engine that is modified to make more power, also produces a higher specific heat in all its production areas, the exhaust,  friction, combustion chamber, and the journal oil heat.

To review the basics, heat is only transferred when a differential exists between source and destination.  The rate of flow between two objects is governed by the quantum differential between them and the thermal transfer efficiency of the materials.  To simplify, two hot objects will both remain hot when placed in contact, same is true with two cold objects.  A hot and cold object will eventually equalize at a median temperature between the two extremes.  Two important factors in the equalization, is the contact area and the thermal conductive efficiency of the materials in contact.

Back the SOHC4 engine.  The engine cases absorb the heat from the oil.  And, it does a better job of cooling the oil when the cases are much cooler than the oil.  Keeping the engine cool is the best tactic for keeping the oil cool.  This is where the engine's large external surface area becomes important.  And, it is cooling fins, wherever they are placed, that add the most surface area to an air cooled motor.  It is the surface area, the temperature differential between the cooling air and the heat source, and the constant replacement of heat saturated air in contact with the engine's external surface, that determines the engine case temperature and its ability to absorb heat from the oil.  This is why, if you have an oil cooler, probably the worst place for it is in the upstream air flow for the engine cooling fins.  Heating the air going to those fins reduces their efficiency.  This is more critical at low air velocities than high velocities.  (Which also explains why race bikes often put them there anyway.)

In summation I will reiterate, that the stock SOHC4 simply doesn't need an external oil cooler.  Certainly not for normal street use.  Perhaps if you are speeding through Death Valley heated air, using 100% of available engine power, it might save you from changing your oil 500 miles sooner.

Further, an improperly engineered oil cooler system added to these old bikes, will actually shorten the engine life by over cooling the oil to be circulated, and increasing internal friction.  (There is also amino acid production within the oil supply to consider, btw.)

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline 754

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2009, 12:55:45 PM »
Biggest factor in  HGonda extending oil change interval,
 I am betting using 3 pce rings is a major part?  not sure when they switched though.

 That and how long the 4s were lasting..
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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2009, 01:23:21 PM »
I made my own, got a cheepo oil cooler and made a jack plate










just finished the wiring last night, just got to finish buffing out the paint (shot it in caddy pearl white) synce the carbs, jet, and ride the piss out of it!

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2009, 03:57:22 PM »
TT,

We're on the same page bro. Easy answers sometime require complex explanations.

I have a Lockhart for mine that has never needed to be installed. I installed one on my Harley and switched to synthetic oil knowing I was going to do some serious desert riding though.

Jerry

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Offline greasy j

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2009, 12:26:25 PM »
None.

The stock SOHC4 bike on average streets and in average weather doesn't need an added oil cooler.

Now, if the engine is modified so as to make much more specific heat and you actually run the engine so it makes this heat most of the time and the weather is way above average, then an oil cooler just might save the oil and ultimately the engine.

And yes, it can hurt the engine under certain street and weather conditions.



ok, I've heard the same thing. I'm going to put an 850 kit in my bike(750) better everything else, etc. this is not super extreme but I'm thinking in this case I will need the cooler. I have also heard that there are oil coolers that have thermostats so they will not cool when unnecessary. just stops the oil from going through the system until it reaches a certain temp.


know anything about these?

Offline 754

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2009, 12:36:23 PM »
Lockhart and at least one other built inline thermostats.

Lockhart also had a cooler with a built in one..
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It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2009, 01:13:59 PM »
None.

The stock SOHC4 bike on average streets and in average weather doesn't need an added oil cooler.

Now, if the engine is modified so as to make much more specific heat and you actually run the engine so it makes this heat most of the time and the weather is way above average, then an oil cooler just might save the oil and ultimately the engine.

And yes, it can hurt the engine under certain street and weather conditions.



ok, I've heard the same thing. I'm going to put an 850 kit in my bike(750) better everything else, etc. this is not super extreme but I'm thinking in this case I will need the cooler. I have also heard that there are oil coolers that have thermostats so they will not cool when unnecessary. just stops the oil from going through the system until it reaches a certain temp.


know anything about these?

You definitely want a thermostat, so as not to over cool the oil.  (and extend the warm up period)
But, there is another aspect to consider.  Oil will stagnate in the cooler if the oil doesn't get to the thermostat's opening temp.
Further, natural condensation within the motor only gets "boiled off" when the oil maintains operating temp long enough to evaporate the condensation.
The worst scenario is when cool weather and short trips never really get the the oil in the cooler circulated at operating temp.
It's the classic problem with air cooler motors, if the cooling fins are large enough to keep the motor and oil cool under high power and hot weather conditions, it will over cool under the opposite conditions.  Over cooled oil won't ever circulate through an oil cooler because of the thermostat.
The result is that stagnant oil/water in the cooler begins to develop amino acids that feast on the metal internals of the cooler, and worse, engine bearings.
True race engines usually aren't concerned with this issue, as they get rebuilt very frequently.

Another thing to consider in the oil cooler installation is draining the cooler during oil change intervals.  The thermostat can hold the oil in the cooler, so it doesn't get changed.  Again, the amino acids stored there can be released later when the engine does get to operating temp.

One alternative to the oil cooler issue, is to use an oil that has a higher breakdown temperature, such as what some synthetics provide.

Another thing to note about the increased displacement you are planing, is that more heat will only be generated when you are actually making more power.  In a normal street regime, the bigger displacement will not increase that, as the same bike will require the same HP to travel 70MPH regardless of the displacement.  The heat specifics won't change unless you change the load or operate at higher power levels.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline greasy j

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2009, 01:27:49 PM »


Another thing to note about the increased displacement you are planing, is that more heat will only be generated when you are actually making more power.  In a normal street regime, the bigger displacement will not increase that, as the same bike will require the same HP to travel 70MPH regardless of the displacement.  The heat specifics won't change unless you change the load or operate at higher power levels.

Cheers,

so would you say an oil cooler would be unnecessary? I live near you so you know the weather conditions. I do plan to ride to Portland or Seattle on occasion.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2009, 11:06:30 PM »
Another thing to note about the increased displacement you are planing, is that more heat will only be generated when you are actually making more power.  In a normal street regime, the bigger displacement will not increase that, as the same bike will require the same HP to travel 70MPH regardless of the displacement.  The heat specifics won't change unless you change the load or operate at higher power levels.
so would you say an oil cooler would be unnecessary? I live near you so you know the weather conditions. I do plan to ride to Portland or Seattle on occasion.
Probably.  I don't have direct experience with your planned modifications, though.  And, I've seen no posted data for oil/engine temps with similar configurations.

With the 550s, I judge oil wear out, by the ease of shifting and clutch drag and how hard it gets to find neutral when stopped and the engine at operating temp.    The bikes usually shift and select neutral easily when cold  (Oil thin, 10w40).  Old oil doesn't get thicker when warmed up and stays too thin, make the trans shift with more difficulty and the clutch drags a bit making neutral stubborn to select. New oil fixes all that.  Around here, the summer oil changes are a bit more frequent than in winter, and it depends on how much it idles in traffic during hot weather.  Oil changes range from about 900 worst case to 1500 (service interval), depending on the heat stress the oil has been subjected to.  During the first 15 years of operating the 74 550, I just changed the oil every 1000 miles.  Later, I figured out the signs for worn out oil.

For a bike with higher displacement, I would monitor what the bike tells me about the oil.  If it tells me to change the oil more often than routine schedule, I might think about a cooler.  However, as an insurance policy, I like to use a synthetic blend that has a higher heat tolerance.  That way at least some of the oil volume is likely to remain a good lubricant if the engine sees high temp excursions.  And when the clutch and trans tells me the oil's had it, I don't feel so guilty changing it at my convenience.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2009, 01:57:48 PM »
i have a power steering cooler from my Galaxie rebuild i'm going to use eventually.
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Re: OIL COOLERS.....STYLE & BRAND....WHAT DO YOU USE ?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2009, 03:37:09 PM »
Quote
I added a s650 nighthawk oil cooler to my 550 engine, with the help of one of Terry from OZ's oil plate adapters.
And?

I think it was a reply to the original question re what types of oil cooler people are using.
2.5 kids: 1 x CB500, 1 x CB550, 0.5 x CB550 (all basket cases)