Topic: Vic World Sandcast On Ebay

[Simpson]

I'm following this one out of curiosity what the market will yield for a sandcast these days...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150379011278&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

Any guesses on the final sale price?

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Theres a set of 69 sandcast engine cases on there also.Under seller dcr0071, I think,Bill

[mick7504]

I reckon for around 25 Grand would be a steal but realisticly I think somewhere between 25>30k.
It's a nice machine.
Can you imagine trying to explain this to the wife?

[JLeather]

Anyone know if Vic World is still buying sandcast engines and parts, or does he have all he needs for these bikes?

[JohnCurW]

Forgive me if this is a niave question (my specialty), but other than the low serial numbers what makes the sandcast models so much more expensive?  Are they just rare?

[Raul CB750K1]

71 miles in five years gives an idea of what a sandcast is for. Every mile you put in it, its value is reducing.


Sorry but not for me.

[Simpson]

71 miles in five years gives an idea of what a sandcast is for. Every mile you put in it, its value is reducing.


Sorry but not for me.

Me either, what's the point? I put about 3-4k this summer on my "new" K0 and look forward to hitting 100k.

[MCRider]

Forgive me if this is a niave question (my specialty), but other than the low serial numbers what makes the sandcast models so much more expensive?  Are they just rare?

Yes, a perfect example of something that is "just rare".

The early crankcases were cast in sand molds, giving them a distinct look, if you know what you are looking for. Soon after introduction, honda switched to die casting.

Along with the sandcast series were certain frame and body parts unique mostly to the sandcast period. I'm not sure but likely the duck tail seats belonged only to the sandcast, or to not many more.  I'm not sure if the seats changed when the casting process changed or not. Little details like that are what make the "collecting" exciting.

Only K0s were sandcast, and not all of them at that as the die cast came in during the K0 run. So it was likely a maybe 6 to 8 month sub-run.

[754]

Sandcast are not KO models, they are a CB 750.

 Low numbers have differences;
 first 219iish had different cases
 first 1000ish cranks had smaller alernator bolts
 first 1000+ had unstamped pipes
 first batch of frames had horn on other side
 early sandcast have different carb tops, and choke lever
 and there are more differences..

 There are around 50 parts unique to early sandcasts as opposed to late ones.

 By comparison a CB 500 4 cyl. pretty well all parts are the same the first year.
 Same for Kawi 900 Z-1.. basically no difference between early and late production for the first year..

 So it is not the same as a lot of other bikes, but also much harder to assemble a correct one out of pieces or starting with say a frame and motor.. That and the high level of desireability makes for high prices..

[MCRider]

Sandcast are not KO models, they are a CB 750.
snip

My sentiment is with you.

However in the official "Honda Motorcycle Identification Guide" copyright 2000 American Honda, the CB750s with sell date 1969-1970, Release Date 06/06/69: Product Code 300: starting with serial number CB750-1000001 and Engine Number CB750E-1000001 are designated: CB750 750 FOUR  (CB750K0).

I guess you could read it some other way. To me, there is no allowance for any split between CB750 and CB750K0. They are one and the same.

[MCRider]

Actually, "sandcast" generally refers to the first ~7400 CB750's that were built, and the the engines weren't actually "sand cast" but rather cast with a process known as permanent mold casting.
After that Honda switched to die casting  the engine casings.

But I guess "sandcast" kinda rolls off the tongue better than "permanent mold casting".  

http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/

That's interesting. And I don't doubt its possible, especially if PMC yields a result that looks like sandcast. But since you are shattering a long held belief, where is the support that they used "perm mold casting" rather than sand casting?

Curious minds like to know.    I looked thru the links but didn't see it.

[mick7504]

With respect, there seems to be a   over this K0/non K0 model designation debate.
I really do not know.
Qualified and unqualified opinion does ebb and flow.

[MCRider]

With respect, there seems to be a   over this K0/non K0 model designation debate.
I really do not know.
Qualified and unqualified opinion does ebb and flow.

I was working in Honda parts as the 1969 CB750 came out. No part of the first run pre-K1s were known to any of us as "K0" at that time. Simply CB750. That's why i said I was sympathetic to 750's view.

Sort of like the mistaken view that decades and centuries start with a "0", they do not. Numbering series start with 1. So the whole thing is screwed up.

In my mind the "K0" came into common use AFTER the K1 came out as a way of being sure what one was talking about. As a parts man, customers would say I've got a Cb750 and I'd say which one and they'd say the first one and I'd say a CB750 and theyd say, no a K1.

So to bring us into modern times, all of the pre-K1s are K0s. Differences are noted by frame number. Its something an owner can hang on to.

So says the Honda ID Guide.

[Simpson]

[/quote]

Sort of like the mistaken view that decades and centuries start with a "0", they do not. Numbering series start with 1. So the whole thing is screwed up.

In my mind the "K0" came into common use AFTER the K1 came out as a way of being sure what one was talking about. As a parts man, customers would say I've got a Cb750 and I'd say which one and they'd say the first one and I'd say a CB750 and theyd say, no a K1.

[/quote]

Makes complete sense. Thanks for the explanation.

[Bill/BentON Racing]

My understanding is sand castingas only last for a few pcs say up to 5? To mass produce the cases they were diecast just not under pressure,so early sandcast got there name because of the look,after#7400 they were pressure diecast which removed a lot of the surface irregularities,so they look much smoother,cause they are.Bill

[754]

In the green Canadian partsbook, issued in 71 in the spring, there are 2 columns on every page
 they are CB 750 and KO

the split may be at 26,***.. that seems to be a major change point as well as 44,***

 The book has a # 4 on the cover.

 This was a designation thay used in at least one country, not long after the bikes were issued.

 I would put more faith in that literature than what they published in 2000.

 FWIW though, I cannot say that they used that in every country..

[mick7504]

 Quoting from "The Original Honda CB750" by John Wyatt (and I'm only quoting as matter of interest)
CB750
Release Date 6 June 1969 (USA) - later he mentions that he'd discovered that his CB750 was first registered in Ottawa on 4 April 1969.
CB750 K0
Release Date Unknown
Frame No. CB750 1044826 - 1044947
Eng No. CB750E 1044848 - 1045147
QUOTE: "I do not wish to enter into a massive controversy regarding the designations of the early bikes.
            What I am going to do is set out what is known; and how all the people I know and respect as authorities on  
            on the CB750 interpret designations.
            I think I know what constitutes a 'Sandcast' bike.
            In fact 'sandcast' is the wrong term, as the crankcases of the early bikes were gravity diecast, but for the sake of peace everyone in the business knows the first 7414 engines as 'Sandcasters'
The Americans, and the rest of the world, to the best of my knowledge, call the first bikes 'K0s'. Even American Honda call them K0s. They are not.
They are CB750s. The K0 model was a transition bike, of which 121 were made, between the CB750 and the CB750 K1. Honda UK have confirmed this.
I believe that the confusion arises from the fact that the American market never had any K0 transition models, so the Americans had no need to define the bikes.
I think we can all agree that the CB750 and the 121 K0s are the early bikes. UNQUOTE.
Interesting stuff!!!!
Mick

[CycleRanger]

If only they would reprint that excellent, expensive book...   

[754]

On the auction a few people seemed to be questioning the numbers..

 I did mention this in the thread under ebay auctions, and that I am thinking it could be maybe from up here..

 Anyway FWIW, I know that frame # 572 had engine # 700, seems to be a greater spread than the bike in the auction?.. made me wonder about it..

[MCRider]

Thank you 754 and Mick! All I can say is WOW!  I didn't mean to be contentious, hope it wasn't taken that way. But I thought I knew what I knew but now I know what i don't know.

I actually have John Wyatt's book as well. Been a while since I'd read it.

I think I'll just skulk off into the background. If the subject comes up again I'll be a little smarter.

Thanks again. What's the bid up to? I'll go check...  

PS: In the Honda ID Book, the CB750K0 is in parenthesis...maybe for a reason.

[754]

I would not be surprised if folks just forgot over time, and simply started calling all of them (2 years) KOs

[mick7504]

If only they would reprint that excellent, expensive book...   

Amazon have some copies of this book for sale but the price is a bit scary. www.amazon.com/Original-Honda-CB750.../1901432130
These have gone up in price like our beloved Sandcasts.
Mick

[mick7504]

Thank you 754 and Mick! All I can say is WOW!  I didn't mean to be contentious, hope it wasn't taken that way. But I thought I knew what I knew but now I know what i don't know.

I actually have John Wyatt's book as well. Been a while since I'd read it.

I think I'll just skulk off into the background. If the subject comes up again I'll be a little smarter.

Thanks again. What's the bid up to? I'll go check...  

PS: In the Honda ID Book, the CB750K0 is in parenthesis...maybe for a reason.

No contention at all Ron.
It's just good ol' fashioned healthy discussion that we share a passion for.
Mick

[Bill/BentON Racing]

They are all 750's!!! ,Bill

[mick7504]

They are all 750's!!! ,Bill

Absolutely Bill
There is no argument about that!