Author Topic: Charging and Urban Myths  (Read 8629 times)

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Offline Bodi

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2007, 10:36:09 AM »
Plus, if you actually get the "real" replacement #34906-341-671 Stanley brand bulb from your Honda dealer, it will last many times longer than an auto store Chinois lamp. The OEM one is a high vibration design with several filament supports. It's specified as 23/8 watts...?
Most dealers just stock locally procured 1157 bulbs now, though.
You can pretty much ignore the stop/signal wattage for charging system fixes, the stop and signal lights are only on a tiny percentage of riding time. The tail and marker lights are on pretty much all the time so a power saving there will do a lot.

Offline Pinhead

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2007, 05:15:09 PM »
And thus converting to an electronic regulator is a HUGE upgrade from the "battery voltage limiter" which will make your battery last much longer and your total electrical system much more efficient.

I don't know why you would say such a thing?  As long as the electronic "regulator" controls the alternator field coil, it is still a battery voltage limiter.  The electronic one likely has more steps in the control than the stock mechanical one.  But, it still monitors the battery voltage and adjusts alternator output to keep from overcharging the battery.

A regulator such as the one Todd was describing, would be inserted in the path between alternator's rectified output and battery.  I think the permanent magnet type alternators employ this type of regulator.

Cheers,



Because while both regulators employ a type of pulse width modulation, the electronic version switches more quickly than the alternator can change voltage, thus producing a smoother output. Especially once the battery has been fully charged, the voltage is much more steady than with the old-style regulator.
Doug

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2007, 06:18:54 PM »
Because while both regulators employ a type of pulse width modulation, the electronic version switches more quickly than the alternator can change voltage, thus producing a smoother output. Especially once the battery has been fully charged, the voltage is much more steady than with the old-style regulator.

But, the battery presents a huge impedance to voltage state change, making switching speed largely irrelevant.  You won't be seeing voltage or current spikes at the battery terminals with either regulator type while they are functioning properly. 

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2007, 06:31:31 PM »
Those spikes are absorbed by the battery, thus smoothing out what is measured at the terminals. The elimination of these spikes (which the battery would have to absorb/smooth) makes the battery last longer.
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

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Offline tsp37

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2007, 06:37:58 PM »
Modern batteries also have more, thinner plates packed more closely together.  This gives you higher amperage for starting.  Despite having a greater vulnerability to failure, modern batteries last a lot longer than batteries lasted 30 years ago.

Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2007, 06:44:34 PM »
Regarding taillight bulbs- the Luxeon LEDs are a heck-of-a lot brighter and only 3 or 5 watts at max.

dave
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2007, 06:59:12 PM »
Those spikes are absorbed by the battery, thus smoothing out what is measured at the terminals. The elimination of these spikes (which the battery would have to absorb/smooth) makes the battery last longer.

Really? Based on what evidence?  I wouldn't expect the battery to care one way or the other.  And, I can't think of any physical property to support that assertion.  Can you?

I've seen and used half wave battery chargers that didn't seem to harm a lead acid battery at all.  That's pretty crude pulsed DC power.  In fact, there are battery chargers out there that intentionally pulse power into the battery.  Some are variable pulse width modulator types with claims that such devices actually help dislodge plate sulfation, to the benefit of the battery.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Pinhead

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2007, 07:09:32 PM »
Based on the fact that a battery stores electricity in a chemical reaction. Most chemical reactions that I've investigated/read about are more efficient and thorough when they are in a steady environment, under controlled conditions. With an alternator that is constantly jumping in and out of charge and discharge, the battery has to reverse its chemical reactions more often than if the voltage was held steady.

Then again, I'll admit that I'm not a chemical engineer. I will say this, however... Many people with 750's say that their batteries are good for 2 years on average. I've got a good solid 2 years on my battery in my 650 with the electronic regulator and it can sit for a week and crank it over just like it would if I had driven it an hour earlier.
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2007, 08:22:04 PM »
I've been looking at a few bulb specs and they seem to have a wattage rating based on 12.8 V, which is closer to a systems operating voltage than 12V. 

But, it's not hard to believe mfgs don't meet, exactly, their specifications.  Further, the spec may be written to require >at least< the wattage rating.  Which means they may manufacture on a bias to exceed rated spec. and to avoid rejected parts fallout that may go along with some variability on non-precision parts.

Cheers,

...exactly what I was thinking, TT.....
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2007, 08:37:22 PM »
Well I'll be ***$$&&***

28/12W for a stop/tail...

There are two of those in the back of my Triumph - my wife still bought me a hi-vis jacket afetr following me down the motorway one drizzley morning. She said that, compared to most of the cars, I was almost invisible in the spray and poor light.

Did you do a straight VI measurement?

I might try that.

On a similar thread, if headlamp bulbs are built to a similar standard, who's to say that I'm not trying to light a 100W lighthouse with my puny 500/4 alternator... (?)

I remember a DOT study that was briefly published in 1971 that stated something like, "...single-point rear illumination is fully insufficient in murky driving conditions...". I've partly remembered it for the obfuscation of the intended parameters of the indication...and, it was replaced with another "opinion" in 1973 that said otherwise...but, it caused Honda and BMW to briefly add 2 rear lights to several models, along with "driving lamps", both of which were the turn signals. The rear ones got red lenses, and all around got the dual-filament bulbs. I think the 550K1 suffered this, too, which led to their "increased alternator output" ad for this model, though I always thought that was some sales gimmick. The only way I could keep my customer's batteries up on those bikes was to change the front turn signals to single-filament sockets and use some RV trailer dual-filament lamps for the rear "running" lights (1 cp low filments) or change those to single-filaments and let them remain turn signals only, again. And, use stock headlights.

Do you know what your headlight bulb is now?

One other thing comes to mind, because of the age of these bikes: clean the contacts where the alternator plug connects to the frame harness, then add a drop of oil or grease to each blade, and cycle them at least 10 times together to clean off the age-old encroaching corrosion. I often see a white powder here that makes a good insulator: sometimes I have increased the measured charging current on old 750s by more than 3 amps by just cleaning this connector's contacts: 500s wouldn't be much different. On my own, after it sat 5 years (following my operation), the battery was low (12.0-12.2 volts) until I performed this ritual: now in hot weather it reaches 13.6 volts in my weekend checkups.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

dnedved

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2007, 02:46:56 PM »
This guy selling solid state "voltage regulators" claims you can get much better charging at idle. Anybody have any experience with these?


http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29392-2357-0?uid=8842264&site=0&ver=EOIBSA080805&lk=URL&Item=320136744703


I have voltage regulator and rectifier both bought directly from Oregon Motorcycle Parts.  They work as advertised and my charging system is very reliable.  I don't think they change the fact that the alternator doesn't put out enough at idle though.  I wish someone made a solid-state turn signal flasher that worked at idle...

Offline Gordon

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Re: Charging and Urban Myths
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2007, 03:26:16 PM »
I wish someone made a solid-state turn signal flasher that worked at idle...

They do.  If your flasher isn't working at idle, either your battery isn't holding a good charge, or your wiring isn't in great shape, or the flasher itself is worn out.