Topic: Labor unions

[noahspop]

I've seen the good effects of unions and bad effects.

Good: My father n' law is in the carpenter's union. He can get a great job anywhere he wants to go and get paid well. When my wife worked for pg&e, she was part of the electrical union which got her great pay and great health insurance.

Bad: Lazy government workers, teachers, etc. who can't be fired for not doing a job properly.

In the end there are those that abuse the situation.

What ever you decide to do don't be a scab, if so watch your back. Crazy stuf goes down, and that's not a rumor.

[Inigo Montoya]

What ever you decide to do don't be a scab, if so watch your back.

This to me is one of the biggest drawbacks of unions. If the union does not want to do the work, the company brings in people who will. There are always unemployed. The problem is #$%*s in unions that vandalize and threaten those who cross the picket. Sorry but if you refuse to work, then your sorry ass can sit on the sidelines peacefully.

[Dead Bound]

I went to college so I have an administrative job per say.  I am non-union because it usually means higher prices on production, labor, etc.  Look at GM.  They pay there labor force an average of $74/hr (with benefits included) --I read that somewhere.  Thats why it cost $40K for a damn truck and they went bankrupt.  If your shop goes union then it is way cheaper for your owner/boss to outsource.  

My in-laws are big time in the union (welder & machinist).  They both worked 35+ years paying their dues and stand to have a good retirement.  

I say that if you are young and not going to college, then join.  But, know that someone else is negotiating your pay for you.        

[Motoguy23]

Thank you all for your input good or bad.

I'll write up a list of questions and make sure to pay attention to what is being said from the people from the union.  I know one of my friends dad is in that union so I'll have to have a talk with him.

[BobbyR]

I have not worked for a Union for probably 35 year or more and really got nothing in return during my membership. But I did benefit.

The Unions served a vital need for the American and worker. The Unions brought abot the Labor laws we have today, which I feel are being eroded along as the Unions get weaker.

The Unions brought about:

The 5 day work week.
Overtime pay.
Paid Holidays.
Pensions.

And the list goes on.

These benefits came about in non Union Companies because they were violently anti Union.

The Founder of IBM was so Union phobic he matched everything you could get from a Union and then some. He was not alone in this, a lot of large Companies did this.

Were there Unions that went way overboard and wielded their power unwisely.

The Unions did not chase Companies offshore, greed did. Foreign governments offered tax incentives and a freedom from environmental regulation. The Companies are greedy as they can maintain their profit margins at lower price point, and you are greedy since you snap the stuff up.

It may surprise you that your Honda was made by Union employees. In Japan, all Companies have Unions. General McArthur wrote that into their Constitution.



It may surprise you that our Hondas were made by Union employees.

[Jerad]

I don't now to much about union jobs,I live in a right to work state. Idaho
all I know is welders here start at 10.00 hr no matter what shop. maybe 11hr
If I hop the border to Nevada I can weld starting 35 hr even in Wyoming starting wage is in the 20s
unions might have there down falls but you dont have to worry about how to feed your kids while you get cancer
and Alzheimer's and everything else from the trade .

[BobbyR]

I don't now to much about union jobs,I live in a right to work state. Idaho
all I know is welders here start at 10.00 hr no matter what shop. maybe 11hr
If I hop the border to Nevada I can weld starting 35 hr even in Wyoming starting wage is in the 20s
unions might have there down falls but you dont have to worry about how to feed your kids while you get cancer
and Alzheimer's and everything else from the trade .

This will make you sick but non union certified welders in my place make $35 and hour. You are right about the fumes being really bad. I have no idea how they can stand it. It is much harder and more skilled work than most people think.

[Jerad]

Rum lots and lots of rum. if you ever hang out with welders you'll find out we are all a little weird in the head.
that is years of fums. 

[DammitDan]

It's all (generally) about the industry you work in and (specifically) the company you work for.

If you work for a well run company who sees its workers as an integral part of the process, then a union is likely not necessary.

If you work for a badly run company who looks at its workers as simply a means to an end, then a union is important to protect the workers' interests.

It all boils down to business ethics and profit motives.  Considering the direction business ethics have been going (especially corporate ethics) I would say that Unions are becoming increasingly important.  But as it has been said, there are bad unions and good unions just as there are bad companies and good companies.

I worked LTL with Yellow/Roadway for a few years (first in the office and then on the dock).  This gave me a firsthand look both at both the relationship between management and unions and the stupid things that both parties did.  When a company develops an "enemy" relationship with its union (like Roadway did) it only serves a negative outcome.  Management was constantly fighting with the union and the union was constantly fighting with management.  It created a situation where stupid, petty things would be forced through by both parties (like the union forcing management to re-hire a local driver after she drove the truck to her home on the clock, left the parking brake off and out of gear, went in to have "relations" with her boyfriend and the truck rolled into her neighbor's house).  Management basically responded by no longer allowing food/drink inside local vehicles.

It's this stupid back-and-forth which only served to break down the relationship between management and the union.  Had management embraced the union and had they worked together to solve problems instead of fighting and creating even more problems, perhaps it would have been a much better place to work.

In the end it all comes down to the predisposition management holds toward its workers.  Hopefully your management team can see the bigger picture and work WITH the union should it move in.

[oldbiker]

In the UK almost all manufacturing industry was destroyed because the unions, instead of just protecting the individual against unfair treatment, upped their wage demands year on year until the companies outsourced or went bust.

[Hush]

I'm the Chairman of the local prison officers union at my site, I spend most of my time doing more welfare work than anything else.
I spend way too much time on union business, it's all unpaid but rewarding, my partner would love it if I gave up being a delegate as many of my days off I have to travel back to the prison to sort stuff out for members.
If we did not have a union my fellow staff would be working in extremely dangerous situations, management are trying to save money at the moment by understaffing the Units, one unit I walked into had two small female staff working the wings with no back-up in the control room!
I stopped that pretty quickly but without the unions in my business I dread to think what could happen.
I also have had bad examples of unions in jobs I have worked, when a railway worker we used to get pulled out on strike for the silliest reason, it put me off unions for quite a while.
Good unions work for the betterment of their members, it is the only reason they exist.

[JS550]

I went to college so I have an administrative job per say.  I am non-union because it usually means higher prices on production, labor, etc.  Look at GM.  They pay there labor force an average of $74/hr (with benefits included) --I read that somewhere.  Thats why it cost $40K for a damn truck and they went bankrupt.  If your shop goes union then it is way cheaper for your owner/boss to outsource.
   I believe the CEOs have a hand in this also. If you do some research you will find that in the 60s, when the car co.s were strong & had unions, the difference in pay from a line worker to a CEO is nowhere near what it is today. To say that the union workers cause all the problems is nuts. So while the white collers get a few hundred percent bump in pay the blue collers should get nothing? You said it all,"  If your shop goes union then it is way cheaper for your owner/boss to outsource."
So, who is being greedy & causing the loss of jobs & wages?
 Maybe governments should stop some out sourcing. They have no problem breaking labour contracts.

[JS550]

Having said that, & being a union worker. I also believe that there are some instances where unions screw up & have to protect sh!theads. Nothings perfect I guess.

[mlinder]

It's all (generally) about the industry you work in and (specifically) the company you work for.

If you work for a well run company who sees its workers as an integral part of the process, then a union is likely not necessary.

If you work for a badly run company who looks at its workers as simply a means to an end, then a union is important to protect the workers' interests.

It all boils down to business ethics and profit motives.  Considering the direction business ethics have been going (especially corporate ethics) I would say that Unions are becoming increasingly important.  But as it has been said, there are bad unions and good unions just as there are bad companies and good companies.

I worked LTL with Yellow/Roadway for a few years (first in the office and then on the dock).  This gave me a firsthand look both at both the relationship between management and unions and the stupid things that both parties did.  When a company develops an "enemy" relationship with its union (like Roadway did) it only serves a negative outcome.  Management was constantly fighting with the union and the union was constantly fighting with management.  It created a situation where stupid, petty things would be forced through by both parties (like the union forcing management to re-hire a local driver after she drove the truck to her home on the clock, left the parking brake off and out of gear, went in to have "relations" with her boyfriend and the truck rolled into her neighbor's house).  Management basically responded by no longer allowing food/drink inside local vehicles.

It's this stupid back-and-forth which only served to break down the relationship between management and the union.  Had management embraced the union and had they worked together to solve problems instead of fighting and creating even more problems, perhaps it would have been a much better place to work.

In the end it all comes down to the predisposition management holds toward its workers.  Hopefully your management team can see the bigger picture and work WITH the union should it move in.

So you're saying, if the companies just, you know, rolled over and did what the unions wanted without question, everything would be hunkey dorey, right?

[Hush]

I have always made sure to keep good relations with my managers and therefore when I take a situation/problem one of my members has, they generally listen and take me seriously.
Destructive actions like strikes usually end up costing everyone so I'm not a huge fan and that is always the absolute last resort, my union thank God believes in negotiate negotiate and if that doesn't work negotiate some more then go to arbitration.

[BeSeeingYou]

I have not worked for a Union for probably 35 year or more and really got nothing in return during my membership. But I did benefit.

The Unions served a vital need for the American and worker. The Unions brought abot the Labor laws we have today, which I feel are being eroded along as the Unions get weaker.

The Unions brought about:

The 5 day work week.
Overtime pay.
Paid Holidays.
Pensions.

And the list goes on.

These benefits came about in non Union Companies because they were violently anti Union.

The Founder of IBM was so Union phobic he matched everything you could get from a Union and then some. He was not alone in this, a lot of large Companies did this.

Were there Unions that went way overboard and wielded their power unwisely.

The Unions did not chase Companies offshore, greed did. Foreign governments offered tax incentives and a freedom from environmental regulation. The Companies are greedy as they can maintain their profit margins at lower price point, and you are greedy since you snap the stuff up.

It may surprise you that your Honda was made by Union employees. In Japan, all Companies have Unions. General McArthur wrote that into their Constitution.



It may surprise you that our Hondas were made by Union employees.

Well said.  Virtually every benefit and right you have as a worker you can thank a union for.  Not to mention the emergence of a large and prosperous middle class.  It just amazes me how so many have bought  into vilifying unions in this country.  While CEO's, executives, bankers, lobbyists, and other wall street types rape and pillage across the business landscape it all comes down to blaming the union.  The moneyed elites have the middle class at war with itself and are laughing all the way to the bank.  Lifetime member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers  292.

[edbikerii]

That's funny.  I used to work at 395 Hudson Street in Manhattan.  Just so happens that this building was (is?) owned by the Local 3 Electrician's union.

One day I arrived at work and the building was surrounded by police cars and black unmarked Crown Victorias, as well as several ESU trucks and a couple tractor trailers from moving companies.

The FBI had just busted the president of the union for having defrauded the membership out of tens of millions of dollars.  They spent DAYS unloading artwork, persian rugs, sculptures, etc. out of that theif's apartment.

Well said.  Virtually every benefit and right you have as a worker you can thank a union for.  Not to mention the emergence of a large and prosperous middle class.  It just amazes me how so many have bought  into vilifying unions in this country.  While CEO's, executives, bankers, lobbyists, and other wall street types rape and pillage across the business landscape it all comes down to blaming the union.  The moneyed elites have the middle class at war with itself and are laughing all the way to the bank.  Lifetime member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers  292.

[DammitDan]

So you're saying, if the companies just, you know, rolled over and did what the unions wanted without question, everything would be hunkey dorey, right?

Not exactly...  It's about communication.  If there is a breakdown in communication by either party, then both parties will suffer as a result.  Unions (theoretically) exist to serve the needs of the employees they represent.  In the case of Roadway which I spoke about, the Union is more focused on petty posturing to maintain status than serving the needs of its constituents.  When either party loses sight of their original purpose (management = serving the company's parts, unions = serving the employees' interests), then the whole process breaks down... hence good/bad companies go along with good/bad unions.

If a company recognizes the role their workers play in the production process instead of focusing only on shareholder interests, then the company will be much more successful as a whole and there will be little need for unionization.  A business is simply a sum of its parts; management and shareholders only play a portion of that role.  Think of it like this...  Preventative health is much less expensive in the long run than intensive care.  It's better to take care of yourself early on than to try to play "catch up" before it's too late.  But you can't only do preventative health on one portion of your body while neglecting whole other portions.  Pandering to shareholder interests and not supporting your own employees is much like hyper-focusing on dental care while neglecting care for your heart and lungs.  But I suppose your teeth will look damn good while you're on the respirator.  This is the approach that many corporations seem to be taking with modern management styles.  The ticker numbers can only look so good before the company crumbles and the employees are demanding a union due to mistreatment or neglect by management.

[BeSeeingYou]

That's funny.  I used to work at 395 Hudson Street in Manhattan.  Just so happens that this building was (is?) owned by the Local 3 Electrician's union.

One day I arrived at work and the building was surrounded by police cars and black unmarked Crown Victorias, as well as several ESU trucks and a couple tractor trailers from moving companies.

The FBI had just busted the president of the union for having defrauded the membership out of tens of millions of dollars.  They spent DAYS unloading artwork, persian rugs, sculptures, etc. out of that theif's apartment.

Well said.  Virtually every benefit and right you have as a worker you can thank a union for.  Not to mention the emergence of a large and prosperous middle class.  It just amazes me how so many have bought  into vilifying unions in this country.  While CEO's, executives, bankers, lobbyists, and other wall street types rape and pillage across the business landscape it all comes down to blaming the union.  The moneyed elites have the middle class at war with itself and are laughing all the way to the bank.  Lifetime member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers  292.

If it's true, what's the point.  You have a corrupt individual who ripped off the members of his organization.  For everyone you bring up I can bring up 10 or 20, Ken Lay, Fastow, Jeff Skilling, and the rest of the Enron bunch, Bernard Ebers, Bernie Madhof, and all the ones in the latest debacle.  How many of these were union members who almost brought the country to it's knees?  As usual you avoid the question and try to cloud the issue, duck and weave,  never answering the question.

[edbikerii]

Union organizers typically are well-known to be corrupt, as evidenced by thousands of incidents of violence, corruption, theft, fraud.  Just think Teamsters, NY's Local 3 Electricians, NY's Carpenters and Joiners, National Association of Machinists, and many other cases (just google "union corruption").  However, the biggest problem with unions is the nameless, faceless union MEMBERS who bring the country to its knees by driving manufacturing and business overseas without even understanding that THEY are the problem.  They vote for their own biggest short-term gains without thinking about the long-term effects of the choke-hold they place the country in.

Anyone who thinks that it is simple "corporate greed" that drives manufacturing overseas needs a reality check.  Once again, look at Toyota, who hires NON-UNION AMERICANS and has the greatest success of all auto manufacturers in terms of sales and revenues.  They have also raised the bar for quality in auto manufacturing.

That's funny.  I used to work at 395 Hudson Street in Manhattan.  Just so happens that this building was (is?) owned by the Local 3 Electrician's union.

One day I arrived at work and the building was surrounded by police cars and black unmarked Crown Victorias, as well as several ESU trucks and a couple tractor trailers from moving companies.

The FBI had just busted the president of the union for having defrauded the membership out of tens of millions of dollars.  They spent DAYS unloading artwork, persian rugs, sculptures, etc. out of that theif's apartment.

Well said.  Virtually every benefit and right you have as a worker you can thank a union for.  Not to mention the emergence of a large and prosperous middle class.  It just amazes me how so many have bought  into vilifying unions in this country.  While CEO's, executives, bankers, lobbyists, and other wall street types rape and pillage across the business landscape it all comes down to blaming the union.  The moneyed elites have the middle class at war with itself and are laughing all the way to the bank.  Lifetime member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers  292.

If it's true, what's the point.  You have a corrupt individual who ripped off the members of his organization.  For everyone you bring up I can bring up 10 or 20, Ken Lay, Fastow, Jeff Skilling, and the rest of the Enron bunch, Bernard Ebers, Bernie Madhof, and all the ones in the latest debacle.  How many of these were union members who almost brought the country to it's knees?  As usual you avoid the question and try to cloud the issue, duck and weave,  never answering the question.

[edbikerii]

You're a real snake, aren't you, srust?  You tried to distract us from the Labor Union question with discussions of OTHER THIEVES, and then you accused me of trying to "avoid the question and try to cloud the issue, duck and weave,  never answering the question."

Not fooling me.  Not today.

If it's true, what's the point.  You have a corrupt individual who ripped off the members of his organization.  For everyone you bring up I can bring up 10 or 20, Ken Lay, Fastow, Jeff Skilling, and the rest of the Enron bunch, Bernard Ebers, Bernie Madhof, and all the ones in the latest debacle.  How many of these were union members who almost brought the country to it's knees?  As usual you avoid the question and try to cloud the issue, duck and weave,  never answering the question.

[kach_me]

It may surprise you that our Hondas were made by Union employees.

Japanese unions are w-a-y different, way different.  There is no comparison between the our unions and those in Japan. 

I work for a Japanese owned company here in the States.  Non-union of course. 

[BobbyR]

It may surprise you that our Hondas were made by Union employees.

Japanese unions are w-a-y different, way different.  There is no comparison between the our unions and those in Japan. 

I work for a Japanese owned company here in the States.  Non-union of course. 

And so do I, and we are non Union also. Just brining out a factiod.