Author Topic: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?  (Read 5412 times)

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Offline Gorms

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Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« on: October 25, 2009, 12:59:09 PM »
I just took the bike on its second ride today.  Its a '77 550k with PD carbs, Emgo pods, and a Mac 4-1 exhaust.  The carbs are in the stock configuration except the idle screws are out 2.5 turns (thanks to another member with this exact setup).  I was just cruising today and did not go past 3/4 throttle.  I'd say the most I took it was 1/2 or a smidge more, not exceeding maybe 5500 rpm.  It seems to run fine at low throttle but when I took it to 5k rpm, I noticed a hesitance, like it would not rev much more unless I took it to WOT. 

This is what the plugs look like.  I campared them the the photos in this link http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html and it makes me think I am a little lean in this mid range but I'm not sure.  The same member who was at 2.5 turn on the idle screws was running the needles in the stock (2nd position) setting and he was very happy with the results.  If I am lean, should I take the needles to the 3rd position? 


Thanks for any help.



Offline mrblasty

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2009, 01:08:12 PM »
The plugs look fine to me.  There always seem to be a flat spot somewhere in the power band. For my 750 it's around 5200 RPMs
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Offline Gorms

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 04:16:29 PM »
Thanks for the reply.  Being new at this I'm maybe more worried than I need to be.  More opinions?

Offline w1sa

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 05:17:18 PM »
Those plugs don't look fouled enough to cause any missing on their own.
They don't look lean for 5K rpm plug chop.
They look slightly soot fouled, but that might have happened as a result of idle time before shutdown, if the engine wasn't fully warmed up.

A plug chop under running conditions (with engine at normal operating temp) is the best way to read plugs.

Offline 333

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 05:53:53 PM »
Is that soot on only one side?  Or is it just the lighting?
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Offline Gorms

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 06:12:59 PM »
Yes, soot only on one side.  Is this normal?

Offline w1sa

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 06:18:54 PM »
 I often see that with mine during tuning. Usually happens most with low operating temp/rpm, where there is not enough heat and turbulence during ignition to efficiently burn the mixture and rid cylinder of accumulating soot.

Offline Gorms

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 06:22:55 PM »
If it is of any relevance (in regards to "accumulating soot"), the engine sat for some time (exactly how long I have no clue).  The plugs were pulled after the bike's second 15 minute run.  Before that, it only idled in the garage for brief periods and one extended period while synching the carbs.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 08:27:39 PM by gorms »

Offline w1sa

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 06:45:54 PM »
If you're satisfied that normal service and engine tune-up condition is aok, and the bike did'nt exhibit any running problems when last used, I'd go for a ride. Get to operating temp, then run in the mid range a short time  and kill/chop the ignition. Pull over immediately and when practical,pull at least one plug to check the condition/color.

It will probably be quite different......... :)

Offline Gorms

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2009, 10:08:15 AM »
During another ride today, I noticed some popping through the #1 carb.  When it pops I can tell it loses a bit of power because the bike surges (or rather the opposite of surge) ever so slightly as it pops.  It could be my timing or valves are off now that the bike has been ridden some but if that is not the case, is this a symptom of being lean?  It happens at cruising speed (35-40 mph) throttle which I asume is about 1/2 throttle although it feels like less (maybe 1/3).  Is needle position to blame?

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2009, 10:23:19 AM »
I would call all 4 of those too rich. Maybe ok pre77 but after 77, that is getting too much gas.

Offline Gorms

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2009, 10:27:57 AM »
Hmmm.  Could you comment on my previous post about carb popping at mid range throttle?  If those plugs indicate rich, I will have no clue how to read them when I do a plug chop at 1/2 throttle.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 10:30:17 AM by gorms »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 10:34:04 AM »
Those plugs indicate you have one throttle setting rich and another lean, I think.

Soot builds up on all the center electrode at one throttle position, and then tries to burn off at another throttle position.

Can't tell from the reading which is which really.  But, if I had to guess, I say that you are lean at idle and then rich higher on the throttle settting when the overall cylinder heat is likely to be higher.  Higher overall heat makes for burning all the deposits off the electrode insulator, and idle is unlikely to get to that higher heat throughout the cylinder.

What gap have you set, and what ignition components are you using? What ignition timing have you chosen?
What are ALL your current jetting and carb adjustment settings.

Why didn't you state the run time on the spark plugs?  Or, when they were new?

I'm used to setting the main jet size first after re-engineering the inlet and exhaust on these engines.  Why are you ignoring the main?  If it is too restrictive, it will effect the throttle needle mixture near the top part of it's range, meaning you can never get a correct slide needle setting over it entire effective range.

Idle is the minimum fuel delivery/fuel flow setting, WOT under load is the maximum fuel delivery/fuel flow setting.  Adjust the mid-range after the extreme limits are known.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Gorms

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2009, 10:45:28 AM »
TT,

More info:
I did not gap the plugs (guess I will now)
Stock ignition components, timing and valves set following Clymers manual.
Carb setting all stock as stated except 2.5 turns in idle screws (42 idle jets, 2nd position needle, 95 (?) mains (stock on '77 550 carbs I think))
Spark plugs 2 weeks old. Maybe 45 min total at idle plus four 15 min rides not exceeding 6000 rpm.
I have not messed with WOT basically because I am afraid that my mixture is too lean and I will hurt the engine (I'm new so convince me otherwise)
Emgo pod filters, Mac 4-1 exhuast
You say I am lean at idle but after a choke to get it started, it runs much better as I push the choke in, indicating I am not lean correct?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2009, 11:28:33 AM »
I did not gap the plugs (guess I will now)
Stock ignition components, timing and valves set following Clymers manual.
The plugs could be correct out of the box.  Then again maybe not.   Or, they could have been bumped during install, if you are not careful.
Use book settings for book ignition components, including spark plug gap.

Carb setting all stock as stated except 2.5 turns in idle screws (42 idle jets, 2nd position needle, 95 (?) mains (stock on '77 550 carbs I think))
Pretty sure the stock main jet was #90.  Which works well for the stock pipe restriction and air filter.
Based on prior post reading, highly unlikely to be correct with the engineering change you've made.
How are you counting the needle position?  Book says stock position is 3rd groove from top.  If you put the clip in 2nd position from top you made the entire mid range leaner.

Spark plugs 2 weeks old. Maybe 45 min total at idle plus four 15 min rides not exceeding 6000 rpm.
Mechanical slide carbs don't meter strictly by RPM, it is quite interactive with actual slide position.

I have not messed with WOT basically because I am afraid that my mixture is too lean and I will hurt the engine (I'm new so convince me otherwise)

Life is risk.  In reality, you assumed that risk when you changed the air filter and exhaust.  Either see it through or turn back.  You are correct to worry/be alert for engine danage, though.
You could put in "over large" jets and work you way back to ideal using smaller sizes, until the WOT plug chops come up rosy.
Better have several sets of new plugs ready.  Or, a way to clean them as new for future testing.  It's part of the "re-jetting" expense, unless you book Dyno time to get a fuel map.

You say I am lean at idle but after a choke to get it started, it runs much better as I push the choke in, indicating I am not lean correct?
It's a guess about idle lean.  Your current plug readings are an average of all the throttle positions and engine conditions that existed since you put them in.  Can't really pinpoint any specific adjustment with that data.  So I extrapolated.
Choke is to compensate for cold cylinder temps and fuel not atomizing while cold.
Carb jetting is done while the engine is at full operating temp and no choke is applied.
While you can use choke as a diagnostic aid, you must also note the throttle position and engine speed/load along with it's perceived benefit/detraction.
For example: if WOT power is improved with some added choke, this might indicate current main jet is too small. (engine at operating temp)
Alternately, if during mid range run under load, added choke improves plug deposit color, then that range can can be enriched, raise the throttle needle) (engine at operating temp)

Easy to put on pods.  Not so easy to get the engine to run right (Certainly in some cases, particularly with the EPA carbs).

How's the engine respond to throttle twist? Stumble? Blubber?  Wheeze?  When you get the main and slide needle set, then you play with the IMS to get that tuned.

Ready for the learning experience?


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Offline Gorms

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2009, 01:36:20 PM »
Thanks TT very helpful.  I am ready for the learning experience and the time it will take to get this right (or close enough).  I knew that going in.

90 for the main jets I am sure is right.  I am pretty sure the needles are in the stock location and I thought that that was position 2 so thats why I said that.  I was reciting those numbers from memory.

Throttle response seems pretty good.  No stumbles/burbles so far but then again I havent really pushed the bike too hard.  I'm a new rider and having just built the bike literally from the ground up, its still in it's shake-down period.

I just got in from gaping the plugs, readjusting the valves, and the timing.  Valves and plugs were good, maybe a little better now.  The timing for 1-4 was off and I am hoping that will stop the carb popping because it popped through carb #1.  Setting 1-4 to the "fire" mark at idle did not make it run as well as setting it to 5mm to the right (spinning CC would that be advancing?).  It ran better there I am assuming because 2-3 was set at that same 5mm to the right.  I set 1-4 to match 2-3 so that it ran smoothly but now I am thinking I should go back out and adjust both to the "fire" marks.

And a question:  I assume pods lean up a mixture because they flow more freely.  Would a 4-1 (replacing a 4-2) exhaust exacerbate this or help?

Thanks.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2009, 06:39:12 PM »
And a question:  I assume pods lean up a mixture because they flow more freely.  Would a 4-1 (replacing a 4-2) exhaust exacerbate this or help?
Um, sort of.
Pods (depending brand and manufacturing techniques) have less resistance to flow, which makes the pressure differential across the different filter membrane smaller.  This effects the depth of the "vacuum" in the carb throats.
(Not all Pods are the same, btw.  Just like all motorcycles are not the same.)

Each carburetor fuel delivery circuit behaves in a similar fashion to a straw in a liquid drink.  If you create a small pressure differential at one end of the straw with your mouth, the atmospheric pressure on the surface of the liquid in the drink pushes the liquid up into the straw and into your mouth.  The more pressure differential that occurs across the ends of the straw, the more fluid gets pushed through the straw to your mouth.

For the carb fuel delivery "straw" one end is in the carb throat and the other is in the fuel supply in the carb bowl.  The bowls are vented so atmospheric pressure exists on the surface of the fuel and that pressure is pretty much the same at the supply end of the fuel jet tube (the straw).  The other end of the fuel delivery "straw" is in the carb throat.  When the filter membrane pressure differential across it becomes less, the carb throat pressure gets closer to outside atmospheric.  The less differential pressure present across the orifice in the fuel delivery tube (the straw), the less fuel flows across that orifice.
In most cases, if you have not changed the volumetric efficiency of the engine mechanicals, the amount or volume of air passing through the carbs does not change.  However, a filter membrane that allows less differential pressure will require a larger jet orifice to flow the same amount of fuel as before, just to maintain the same air fuel ratio as before the filter membrane change.

The end effect, is that pod filters often turn carbs that were tailored for a different filter membrane into lean delivery machines.  Bigger fuel delivery orifices are then needed as compensation for the membrane change.

The stock exhaust was a 4 into 4, not a 4 into 2.  So, there was already a back pressure change coincident with that change.  The 77-78 550K exhaust is pretty quiet and the outlets are smaller on a per pipe basis than earlier 4 into 4s.  This was part of the EPA regulatory issues impressed on this model of bike (both hydrocarbon and noise pollution).  The increased back pressure reduces cylinder scavenging, leaving some unburned hydrocarbons in the chamber for the next power cycle, and reducing the fuel requirements for the next power stroke.  The back pressure therefore allowed less fuel delivery for a correct mixture.  Carbs were tuned to provide the correct mixture for the components installed.

A properly tuned 4 into 1 has an RPM or range of RPMs where the exhaust pulses help scavenge adjacent cylinders.  This allows more oxygen into the chamber for the next power stroke, and usually more fuel needs to be delivered when "on the pipe" in order to keep the proper air fuel ratio.
A properly tuned 4 into 1 (race pipe with calculated pipe diameter and length) doesn't usually "come on" until the RPMs are quite high.  Designed for racing engines, these pipes don't work until near and above labeled red line on the tach.  Usually, this is best used on "built" engines that have been modified to survive these higher RPMs.  Also note that race engines are frequently rebuilt (every race?) to keep worn parts from self destruction.
The down side of the 4 into 1 is that at lower RPMs ("off the pipe") the exhaust pulses from neighbor cylinders reflect back to other exhaust ports and actually interfere with the exhaust scavenging, making the engine far less efficient (than a 4 into 4, for example, and some 4 into 2s).  4 into 1's usually don't have good low and midrange power, where most street bikes operate most of the time.
Many 4 into 1's aren't tuned at all and are just cheap "form" examples sold to those who really don't understand what they are supposed to do, IMO.  The Mac is one of these. Its a replacement to keep those with stingy pocketbooks, legal for the street.  I don't believe there is any tuning engineering put into these systems.

From a jetting point of view, it all depends on the back pressure presented to the engine and in what RPM range it is being operated in.  During scavenge boost, more fuel delivery is needed.  During scavenge detriment, less fuel delivery is needed.
Simply stating it is a 4 into 1, does  give a valid reference to a back pressure/boost map that can be used to predict a change from what once was.

You have made an engineering change.  You can sniff/measure the exhaust to determine what is unburned under power.  (such as a dyno)
Or, you can do "plug chops" to infer the combustion conditions your combination of parts demands, based on fuel deposits within the combustion chamber left on a the spark plugs.

Hope this helps...someone.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2009, 07:24:28 PM »
Lloyd,your comments well written as usual,can't help but agree about MAC 4-1s for CB750s,first 4-1 I just didn't like,what worked on others ,RC,Yosh,Jardine,Bassani,Kerker,didn't seem to work ,I finally wrote those pipes off in my book,I don't think theres a range where they scavenge properly(I never found it)Drew wanted one @ one time on Calendar Girl,my reply not no,Hell No.You guys can do better,IMO.,Bill
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Offline Gorms

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2009, 07:55:03 PM »
Thanks for your time TwoTired.

Offline Flying J

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2009, 12:37:19 PM »
I have a PD carbs on my 550 with emglo pods and a kerker exhaust. I have done a WOT plug chop with with (i think) 110s and was lean for sure. I moved up to 120s and was looking a little rich so now im running 118 with no problems at WOT. So i would guess that you are running lean at WOT. Its not hard to change out you main jets and you can get a set for like $5 on line.
My plugs had carbon on only 1 side. Any ideas why that is? so i dont high jack his thread post here please. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=51902.50


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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2009, 01:05:36 PM »
Pods will always cause issues with driveability.  Most of the stock air filter boxes had velocity stacks ( rubber portion that mounts to carb ) along with a bit of a dead air space ( created by the filter housing ). Both of these things make the bike run better not worse. Street bikes are designed to run over a large RPM range therefore the air intake components are made to accomodate this. Race bikes are a different animal.

When you go to pods you'll find that you may be able to tune it better for one portion of the rpm range but it will run crapy in another rpm range. Air going by a pod tends to create a vaccum at the rear of the pods which in effect works against the engine trying to suck air in.

I find it odd that one side of the plug is much darker than the other.  The porcelan area of the plug should be a tan colour not white on a proper running engine.

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2009, 06:18:03 PM »
If my plugs are tan, I am running rich. I know this because I can smell the fuel. there is also light black smoke. ont he 77/78 bikes, I would not want tan at all. A light dusting is better.

Offline Gorms

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2009, 07:38:26 PM »
Inigo,

What intake and exhaust do you run?

Offline Tretnine

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2009, 05:27:26 AM »
I have 2 550s, neither of which are perfectly tuned, but, from what I've found stock airbox settings on 77-78 550 models have a flat spot between 4500 and 5200 that clears up over 5200. It doesn't span that whole range of 700 RPMs, but it's definitely cleared up over 5200. Real torque doesn't develop until after this area. I've only driven a few 550s, but they've all had that spot. My bikes all have stock 4-4 pipes.

Also, I bought a bike that was 'tuned' for pods. (tuned meaning nothing was done) Anyway, pods with stock config gave the bike better lower end performance, but caused a lot of other problems higher in the power band. They bike didn't feel as dead under 5k. After putting a stock air filter configuration back on the bike performance moved back to relative normalcy and was less grunty at low RPMs, smoother across the RPM spectrum but regained that under 5k flat spot. Also, the pods on this bike were a joke. (a couple were taped together) so, I'm sure air flow was different across the cylinders and there was a lot of leakage. Take what you will from my real-world analogy. 

My opinion is to keep the tach over 5k if you don't mind making the noise. That's where all the fun's at anyway. Max torque (stock config) isn't until 8,500 RPMs. That's where you want to be!
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Please diagnose these plugs. Lean? Good?
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2009, 06:28:30 AM »
Gorm, I am using a k&n filter in the airbox. The headers are stock but I have some slip-ons as my pipes were rusted out when I got my ride. They were som cheap emgo slip-ons. They look nice enough but I never flow tested them.