Author Topic: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!  (Read 1761 times)

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Offline 750

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THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« on: October 27, 2009, 04:20:00 AM »
Still have a hesitation when I open the throttle at 4900 or higher.  Everything I have done to this point has had a small effect but the problem is not gone.  I thought it was the fuel filter.  I was so excited to find it was partially clogged and when I took it out for a short ride the problem didn't seam to be there.  But yesterday I put about 60 miles on and IT'S STILL THERE.  To recap I have 1-3 new rubber boots connecting the carbs to the motor, #4 is siliconed on because it can't be purchased new from Honda.  I have removed the fuel filter in the tank and put a new one in line because the in-line one was $1.50 and the (in tank) Honda one was $29.00.  I have checked my accelerator pump and gaped it properly (the rubber is good). I checked and rechecked the float height. The gas cap is breathing properly.   

There are 117.5s up from 110s jets in the carbs and I'm thinking about putting them back to stock?  After I got home last night I took the air box off and took the bike for a ride (about 20 miles).  Without the air box, the problem doesn't exist.  That means I'm rich right?  Well, the plugs seamed to tell a different story.  They looked a bit on the white side not super white, but not golden brown either.  This is getting confusing.  Do I jet back down??  Do I go out and buy a K&N air filter??  Any suggestions??

Thanks for any help guys  :D

Offline 750

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 04:21:17 AM »
SORRY FOR POSTING TWICE PLEASE REPLY TO THIS ONE.
THANKS

Offline Ogri

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 04:32:53 AM »
Do you have a standard exhaust? If so, I would've thought that along with the standard airbox, 117.5s were way too big.

You're clearly running rich if removing the airbox solves the problem.

Modern fuels are not as good as indicating mixture at the plug electrode, I'm not sure if it's due to the lack of lead or the hideous carp they put in it now.
 A 'plug chop' should be carried out after the bike has run at a set throttle opening. It won't be an accurate reading if you drive 5 miles through city traffic then check the plugs after a few minutes at high speed. You also need to kill the engine the moment you close the throttle from the testing position.
Sorry if I'm 'teaching you to suck eggs'.

Offline eurban

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2009, 05:03:22 AM »
You also need to start a plug chop with clean preferably new plugs.

750, you probably stated this is some other post but you really should mention what modifications your bike has and what year and model (presumably 77 or 78 750??)  If you have the 110 mains then it really isn't too big of a deal to swap them in.  Just make sure they are clean.  On the PD carbs one can unscrew the bowls and swap the jets without removing the carbs but it is a bit of a pain.

In your problem description you should also mention the throttle position(s) where the problem occurs.  Is it a hesitation occuring after rapidly whacking wide open the throttle? (Likely, accelerator pump issues;  have you actually observed the spray of fuel from the nozzles with the air box off and whacking open the throttle??)  How about describing exactly what the conditions are when the problem occurs. . . .One thing to keep in mind is that you will never get fuel injection levels of precision from a set of 30+ year old carbs and that there are certain conditions (like rapidly whacking open the throttle, particularly on the pre 77 carbs) where there may be hiccup that is just the nature of the beast . . .

Offline 750

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2009, 07:17:42 AM »
First, it's a 750K8, stock, stock, stock, except the 117.5 mains. The problem happens at 4900RPM and up and it happens when the throttle is opened moderately to rapidly, however when going from 0-redline there is no hesitation.  I have actually observed the fuel streams that the accelerator pump produces in the front of the carbs. One thing I didn't mention above is the valves are set properly, the points are good and I have around 120psi +5 -0 compression in each cylinder.  I realize my bike is 31 years old.  I read that on the plate on the front of the bike, so I'm good to go there. Yea, I noticed it's not fuel injected too.  I don't believe they had FI for bikes 31 years ago. However these facts don't change the fact that the bike it doesn't act like it should and I'm trying to figure out why.  


Offline 750

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2009, 07:22:58 AM »
One thing I didn't mention is the #3 pipe may have a loose baffle (no holes in any of the stock 4 into 4 popes). Could this at all be causing the problems I'm seeing.
Thanks again for all of your input.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2009, 08:22:50 AM »
#4 insulator is actually #1 turned around. Same with #2 and #3.

Have you done a complete carb overhaul cleaning out all jets and orifices? Complete tune-up?
Stock pipes and airbox?

White plugs and taking off the air filter makes it run better- strange.
If you have a loose baffle on 3 it would create less backpressure for that cylinder which could create a lean condition.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 08:25:46 AM by Dukiedook »
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Offline w1sa

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 08:36:16 AM »
If the needle/mains combination is too rich at '4900'rpm or greater, it should become evident by doing conventional plug chops at and above that rpm. If you do that and don't get the desired plug color (say light tan to magenta), but get darker/sootier coloring, that might confirm a richer than desired mixture is occuring at those throttle setting/engine speeds.

Make practical changes after that............ :)

Offline 750

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 09:10:14 AM »
If the needle/mains combination is too rich at '4900'rpm or greater, it should become evident by doing conventional plug chops at and above that rpm. If you do that and don't get the desired plug color (say light tan to magenta), but get darker/sootier coloring, that might confirm a richer than desired mixture is occuring at those throttle setting/engine speeds.

Make practical changes after that............ :)

Wow, thanks for the practicle advice.  I will do a plug chop and see where I'm at at 4900 tonight and maybe a few other rpms just to be sure.  I have done plug chops @ wide open throttle and I get a nice golden brown however I havn't done it at the RPMS I'm talking about.  Guess that should have been common sense.  I do however have a lot to learn.
Maybe I shouldn't have gone that extreem on the jet size.  I was just told that during the time period these bikes were made they were run vary lean and I really didn't want to burn up my motor because of some silly 70s emission standards.
Thanks Again

Offline eurban

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 07:13:44 PM »
I realize my bike is 31 years old.  I read that on the plate on the front of the bike, so I'm good to go there. Yea, I noticed it's not fuel injected too.  I don't believe they had FI for bikes 31 years ago. However these facts don't change the fact that the bike it doesn't act like it should and I'm trying to figure out why.  
It amazing how often people with experience on modern machines wonder whats wrong when they first come into contact with a 30 plus year old air cooled machine.  The noises , the braking, the handling, the power delivery etc etc.  Why does my bike sound like it has a bunch of marbles rattling around inside it?  Why does my bike hesitate before taking off when I whack open the throttle all the way?  Etc Etc Etc.  Sometimes there are things wrong but often its just the old bike.  Spend some time here and you will see for yourself. . .  The lack of info in your post (I guess you had some other posts that we were supposed to read, why didn't you just continue the old thread?) is pretty common with newbies so I threw out a reminder in case you had unrealistic expectations. Frankly your reply is rather punkish. . .
I also gave you some "practical" things to consider including a reality check of your accelerator pump, and a suggestion to swap back to the 110s.   You now state you have a stock bike yet you have upped the mains 3 steps in an attempt to avoid some sort of government mandated leaness.  Why doesn't your bike run right? Could very well be your mains. . .Feel free to do a plug chop but don't expect old plugs to give you any sort of accurate reading.  Assuming that you put in new plugs, work your way quickly up to the troubled area, ride in that area for a few minutes, hit the kill switch and coast to a stop you might be suprised to find that your plug doesn't resemble the plugs you see on various plug charts.  Plugs take many miles of use before they can be properly compared to those pics.  Be prepared to spend some time reading up on plug chops, and plug reading.  There are some good sites out there.  If all this too much trouble then consider doing the "practical" thing which is undoing the changes you made.

Offline 750

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2009, 09:27:06 AM »
It amazing how often people with experience on modern machines wonder whats wrong when they first come into contact with a 30 plus year old air cooled machine.  The noises , the braking, the handling, the power delivery etc etc.  Why does my bike sound like it has a bunch of marbles rattling around inside it?  Why does my bike hesitate before taking off when I whack open the throttle all the way?  Etc Etc Etc.  Sometimes there are things wrong but often its just the old bike.  Spend some time here and you will see for yourself. . .  The lack of info in your post (I guess you had some other posts that we were supposed to read, why didn't you just continue the old thread?) is pretty common with newbies so I threw out a reminder in case you had unrealistic expectations. Frankly your reply is rather punkish. . .
I also gave you some "practical" things to consider including a reality check of your accelerator pump, and a suggestion to swap back to the 110s.   You now state you have a stock bike yet you have upped the mains 3 steps in an attempt to avoid some sort of government mandated leaness.  Why doesn't your bike run right? Could very well be your mains. . .Feel free to do a plug chop but don't expect old plugs to give you any sort of accurate reading.  Assuming that you put in new plugs, work your way quickly up to the troubled area, ride in that area for a few minutes, hit the kill switch and coast to a stop you might be suprised to find that your plug doesn't resemble the plugs you see on various plug charts.  Plugs take many miles of use before they can be properly compared to those pics.  Be prepared to spend some time reading up on plug chops, and plug reading.  There are some good sites out there.  If all this too much trouble then consider doing the "practical" thing which is undoing the changes you made.
[/quote]

No need for name calling but if that’s what gives you kicks than more power to ya.  I may be new to this sight, but I by no means consider myself a newbie.  On the same hand I’m by no means an old timer or a seasoned mechanic.
This is not my first time around the block with an SOHC4.  I bought my first 750 when I was 16 years old and owned it until I was 27.  I sold it only to miss it so much that I went out and bought a K8.  When I bought my K7 it had a bad lower crank case half.  The PO had a mishap that put the chain threw it.  I completely tore it down, found and put a used case half on and rebuilt the motor at the same time.  There have been to many other motorcycles to mention but in reference to the SOHC4 750 I spent last winter completely dissembling my K8 repainting, re-chroming, cleaning, polishing and putting it back to as stock I know how.  I know I didn't give you my personal history in the beginning of this thread either (didn’t think I had to) but there is some of it.  I guess what I’m trying to say is I think I have a good idea of  what these bikes should sound like, I know how they brake, and I know how they handle, and I have a good idea of how to take them apart and put them back together.  I even know how to maintain them.  I have experience with rebuilding, sinking and cleaning carbs.  That said I by no means consider myself an expert on carburetion or anything else for that matter.  At best I am great machinist/welder/ fabricator(that’s what I do for a living) (not motorcycle mechanic), who really just enjoys building and restoring old motorcycles.  That is why I have asked the questions I have.  Long story short, I pulled the air box, took it for a ride and the problem completely disappeared.  This, your suggestion to put it back to the stock 110’s, and some common sense made me realize it was running rich.  So I switched back to the stock 110's and the problem is gone.  However, I had these and other issues described earlier before I switched to the 117.5s.  I’ll never know for sure but I think the original issue was carb boots, maybe a slightly clogged fuel filter, improperly gapped accelerator pump and probably about 9 other things I fixed after adding the 117.5s.  So call me names if you will but you may want to pick better ones than newbie and punk.   

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 10:31:54 AM »
no names here 750. Once you get used to most people here, you will find that eurban is usually pretty decent. See now if you had used that tone with Twotired, he would have out right blocked you like he did me after I called him on condescending a new person for not giving what he thought was enough description.

Offline 750

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2009, 12:02:01 PM »
Thanks for the back up I think/hope :)

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2009, 12:26:43 PM »
Don't worry E is a good guy. :)

Offline Henning

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2009, 04:30:03 PM »
Take it easy, 750, and chill out. You won't get the help you want if you start flaming the very people who can help you. And getting into a "he started first" slanging match won't help either.
71 or thereabouts 750 K1 - this one should have been put down

Offline 750

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2009, 05:15:22 PM »
Take it easy, 750, and chill out. You won't get the help you want if you start flaming the very people who can help you. And getting into a "he started first" slanging match won't help either.

You're right, thanks.  Guess I didn't realize it had escalated to that.  I apologize if I offended you or anyone else.  Just wanted to get the facts strait, that's all.  Consider me chilled.
Thanks again, everyone on this forum really is great and the help is second to none.

Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: THE PROBLEM LIVES!!!
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2009, 05:22:58 PM »
I don't think any of that went too far... nobody called anyone "cheif" or my all time fav "sports fan"
that is a strange problem. ima think on it...




make a video.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 05:27:26 PM by Industrial Cafe »
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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