Topic: '69 350 Scrambler in the works...

[paulages]

Hmm, interesting. How hard would it be to make them? I'm not real fond of Motion Pro. We got some for Kit's bike and they definitely weren't OEM quality. They were missing a much needed nut (because of the ferule, we couldn't add one) and were slightly the wrong length which created a problem with bunching up at the carb and lots of runability problems. We chucked those brand new cables after many tries, put the old ones back on in the meantime and ordered the Honda ones. I can actually still order this one thru Honda for around $25. (one of the few parts still avail) We'll see when we can make some. I have a lot on my plate these days. Saturdays and Sundays are easier for me to get together since I work wonky hours compared to most people. What materials do we need?

Thanks for the easily digestible version of the wiring. What I was seeing makes a lot more sense now. Any ideas on a suitable covering for the wiring to the points? I think these wore thru rather than melted. If I leave it to Kit, I'll end up with leather or squirrel tail or something.  

i'm sure you can fine high temp insulation similar to the woven stuff that cam stock. i'll think about it. if you can order the OEM throttle cables, do it for sure. making one isn't too hard; you just buy braided stainless steel cable from a hardware store and solder the right ends on. i have an assortment of cable ends, but if i don't have the right ones i have a source in town. if your sheathing is toast too, we'll have to find some, but it's usually the cable itself that gets rusty and sticky.

[chickenman_26]

I would like to redo most if not all of the connections on the wiring. I have to redo some ignition wires (the red and black had the coating off, inside the little rubber cover, opposite side of where the key goes in. the brown looks like crap too). I can re-solder new wires in, no big deal there. They look like cold solder joints anyway. Most of my connections are shot, not just corroded. I can get some of the bullet connectors, male/female at NAPA or anywhere. No one seems to carry anything that will do a quick disconnect on more than 2 wires though. Many of these are 2 into 1.

You can get all of the single and double bullet connectors from Vintage Connections. they also sell most of other connectors you need.

Stu

[mystic_1]

Any ideas on a suitable covering for the wiring to the points? I think these wore thru rather than melted. If I leave it to Kit, I'll end up with leather or squirrel tail or something.  

McMaster Carr sells high-temp insulating sleeving:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#sleeving/=4j3hgd

mystic_1

[MickeyX]

I gotta head out and pick up my tank and covers. I'll check out those 2 places when I get back. Thanks!!!

I'll just order the cables then. They're about 18-25 each for what ever I need. The sheath is bad and cracked too.

[MickeyX]

Nice, older gent that's a diesel mechanic for a tug boat company and races 160's.  .Told me about their vintage bike stand at Corvallis Fair around Memorial Day. Lots of cool bikes there. 

I got a good deal on that stuff, no doubt about it. He handed me back $20 for the shipping I had to pay upfront. Good guy. I drove out a bit and got a 3.5 gallon bucket of mole asses at the feed store. I need a garbage can with a lid big enough to hold a tank. All told, it cost me <$50. Covers are in good shape. Still have rubber and the cross bar came with them.

I'll check out the websites at work tonight on my break. Thanks guys. I can use all the help I can get. Oh, found a decent parts site, you probably already know... Hondapartsnation.com. They discount the OEM parts by about 20% compared to others. With the shipping, it still ended up being a lot less than just picking them up at my local place. (free shipping if you pick it up at the shop) I have to go to Z1 one of these days for exhaust gaskets among other things. It never ends, does it? 

[TomC]

Hi Paul
     What slipping points problem??
          TomC in Ohio
[/quote]

just a heads up: his transistor won't solve the slipping points problem... good affordable solution to pitting points though.
[/quote]

[paulages]

Hi Paul
     What slipping points problem??
          TomC in Ohio

just a heads up: his transistor won't solve the slipping points problem... good affordable solution to pitting points though.
[/quote]
[/quote]

almost every 350 i've been into had stripped screws at the points' mounts and at the base plate. when i rode a 350 daily (several actually), i ALWAYS kept a 12V test light, feeler gauges, and a reversible screwdriver in the toolbox, as on more than a few occasions i would notice pinging or poor running and the points or baseplate had slipped, and had to fix it on the fly. i don't know what it is about them, because my much-more-vibrating BSA doesn't have this problem, nor have any of my honda fours. maybe i've just had bad luck, i don't know... in any case, those screws are almost always stripped loose from POs, and good allen cap screws help a lot.

[TomC]

Hi Paul
     I put a fair number or miles on a CB450 and never had this problem. But I was the person tightening  the screws.
     I will give the threads in the points plate of the CB350K4 that I just bought a good look.
     Thank You TomC in Ohio

[paulages]

Hi Paul
     I put a fair number or miles on a CB450 and never had this problem. But I was the person tightening  the screws.
     I will give the threads in the points plate of the CB350K4 that I just bought a good look.
     Thank You TomC in Ohio

for whatever reason, i've not had this problem with a 450.

[MickeyX]

Stupid question... should something be in that hole???

[MickeyX]

Just waiting on parts to come, parts to get clean, many parts to be cleaned yet... The wiring I'm waiting on till next week when I have a lot more time at one shot. I have the whole week off to mess with it and be good and pissed off just in time for the holiday. 

What are people thinking when they post NOS parts on feebay for $29.99 plus outrageous shipping... when the part is still available and only $3.13 through Honda?

Does anyone know if the chain guard for other years will fit mine?

Okay, so here's another hot topic for bike wars... what kind of chain? *ducks and runs away* Also, how in the hell do I get this one off and the other one on? I'm used to bicycle chains with a master link to pop. Is that what I should be looking for on this? I figure if I can hook the new one on to the old and just pull it around, I don't have to try to jam my fingers around the gear up front, ya?

BTW, I did check out the sites you guys have been posting and PM'ing me about. Thanks alot. The mail man is gonna be a busy guy over the next few weeks. Man, I need to get some more OT somewhere... 

Paul, so what is the diff between HondaMans ignition and the others besides a major diff in price? Does one use the points and the other is a total replacement?

[MickeyX]

Oh, is it possible to jam a 18" tire on a 19" rim? I have to go measure that rim but the tire up front is an 18" and it's supposed to be 19". Just wondering.

[tbpmusic]

Stupid question... should something be in that hole???

Yes, a friction-type steering damper assembly.
They work great, but good luck finding one.........

[Laminar]

Okay, so here's another hot topic for bike wars... what kind of chain? *ducks and runs away* Also, how in the hell do I get this one off and the other one on? I'm used to bicycle chains with a master link to pop. Is that what I should be looking for on this? I figure if I can hook the new one on to the old and just pull it around, I don't have to try to jam my fingers around the gear up front, ya?

There are master link and rivet-type chains. If you can't find a master link you'll want to pick up a chain tool to pop a rivet out and replace the chain.

Paul, so what is the diff between HondaMans ignition and the others besides a major diff in price? Does one use the points and the other is a total replacement?

The way I understand it, HondaMan's ignition uses the current point as a kind of "switch" for the ignition box instead of running the full ignition current through the points. This increases the reliability of the bike and greatly reduces the rate of point degradation. Other "electronic" ignitions use new pickups (often magnetic) as a replacement for the points.

[TomC]

Hi MickeyX
     By using the original points, or new replacement points, the HondaMan ignition system keeps all the electronics away from the engine heat. That assumes that the box is mounted in a relatively cool place. Also the HondaMan ignition can be installed so that if there ever was a problem the wires can be switched so that the original system is back.
     As far as the improvement in the spark the HondaMan ignition will be as good or better than any of the inductive ignition systems.
          TomC in Ohio

Paul, so what is the diff between HondaMans ignition and the others besides a major diff in price? Does one use the points and the other is a total replacement?

The way I understand it, HondaMan's ignition uses the current point as a kind of "switch" for the ignition box instead of running the full ignition current through the points. This increases the reliability of the bike and greatly reduces the rate of point degradation. Other "electronic" ignitions use new pickups (often magnetic) as a replacement for the points.
[/quote]

[mystic_1]

What are people thinking when they post NOS parts on feebay for $29.99 plus outrageous shipping... when the part is still available and only $3.13 through Honda?

They're thinking "There's one born every minute." 

Does anyone know if the chain guard for other years will fit mine?

AFAIK any CB350 or CL350 chain guard should work on your bike.


mystic_1

[Retro Rocket]

Hi Mickey, if you are not doing a full restore leave the 18 on the front, it is a better size wheel for the front and there should be a better tyre selection for the 18 as well, lots of the 750 guys replace the 19 with an 18 on the front. Oh and you CAN'T put an 19 inch tyre on an 18 or visa versa...

Mick

[paulages]

mick- someone already answered your question well enough, but for what it's worth: i'm a fan of points. in the same way that a like building a fire when camping or being able to mcguyver a bypass for my main fuse on my BSA when a brake light short blew it the other day in the middle of nowhere.... the system is crude is some ways, but brilliant in others. the HM ignition essentially allows you to keep the brilliance and not have to change points every six months (on a daily rider).

if someone was to REALLY make an improvement on the 350 ignition though, it would be to machine the baseplate to allow the right side points to have their own timing slots. this was really a design flaw in my opinion. in case you haven't done it yet, i'll explain: you set the point gap for both cylinders (with a .012"-.016" range), then set the timing on the left cylinder using the baseplate. however, for the right cylinder the timing is set (if wrong) by re-adjusting the point at which it opens, changing the dwell and potentially making the gap too large or small. if the points are new or not too worn, you can go back and reset the left side points smaller or larger, re-time the baseplate, and hope that you then have room for the right side to be timed correct and have a proper gap. maybe you get an idea of how much of a pain it can be? i don't mind points on the fours at all, as they seem to wear less and have separate timing adjustments. an electronic ignition for the 350 that got rid of this hassle would be well worth it IMO.

let me look at one and see how hard it would be to modify...

[MickeyX]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm learning a lot. 

I have to set it aside for a few days. We are on vacation as of tomorrow and won't be around much for the 1st few days.

I'm making progress though on what I can until stuff comes in. As for the cleaning of the tanks... after they are clean of rust, why do people go the route of kreeming them? Kit kreemed her original and it sucked. Then we had it boiled out, red coated (which is blue btw) by Mack's radiators for waaaay too much $$$. (what a ripoff that was) We ended up needing a different tank for Kit's bike cuz they ruined it overall and the bike wouldn't run for more than a day before it clogged the carbs again with both rust and coating. The current tank we got from western salvage was cleaned with nut shell media, hung on the wall until we bought it and it's still clean looking. I don't get it??? Am I missing something? I'd really rather not have to keep cleaning that kreem crap out of my carbs the way we did Kit's. As I understand it, we should pull it out when done in the molasses, wash it really well, run some diesel around inside or a very light oil to keep it from flash rusting and fill 'er up. Is that it? Maybe we have to be careful to keep it full after that or something?
 

[TomC]

Hi Paul
     Have you ever looked at fitting the movable point set up from a SOHC4 on a CB350 point plate? I read some thing about doing this, I think, to a CB450. I read this in the time between when I sold my CB450, about 1980, and a week ago when I bought my CB350K4. So I did not bother to save any information.
          TomC in Ohio

if someone was to REALLY make an improvement on the 350 ignition though, it would be to machine the baseplate to allow the right side points to have their own timing slots. this was really a design flaw in my opinion. in case you haven't done it yet, i'll explain: you set the point gap for both cylinders (with a .012"-.016" range), then set the timing on the left cylinder using the baseplate. however, for the right cylinder the timing is set (if wrong) by re-adjusting the point at which it opens, changing the dwell and potentially making the gap too large or small. if the points are new or not too worn, you can go back and reset the left side points smaller or larger, re-time the baseplate, and hope that you then have room for the right side to be timed correct and have a proper gap. maybe you get an idea of how much of a pain it can be? i don't mind points on the fours at all, as they seem to wear less and have separate timing adjustments. an electronic ignition for the 350 that got rid of this hassle would be well worth it IMO.

let me look at one and see how hard it would be to modify...

[paulages]

Hi Paul
     Have you ever looked at fitting the movable point set up from a SOHC4 on a CB350 point plate? I read some thing about doing this, I think, to a CB450. I read this in the time between when I sold my CB450, about 1980, and a week ago when I bought my CB350K4. So I did not bother to save any information.
          TomC in Ohio

if someone was to REALLY make an improvement on the 350 ignition though, it would be to machine the baseplate to allow the right side points to have their own timing slots. this was really a design flaw in my opinion. in case you haven't done it yet, i'll explain: you set the point gap for both cylinders (with a .012"-.016" range), then set the timing on the left cylinder using the baseplate. however, for the right cylinder the timing is set (if wrong) by re-adjusting the point at which it opens, changing the dwell and potentially making the gap too large or small. if the points are new or not too worn, you can go back and reset the left side points smaller or larger, re-time the baseplate, and hope that you then have room for the right side to be timed correct and have a proper gap. maybe you get an idea of how much of a pain it can be? i don't mind points on the fours at all, as they seem to wear less and have separate timing adjustments. an electronic ignition for the 350 that got rid of this hassle would be well worth it IMO.

let me look at one and see how hard it would be to modify...

this is exactly what i was going to try to do. i believe the baseplate on the fours is generally a larger OD though.

X- eff the liner kits. if you're gonna use one, use the blue stuff or the POR-15 product, but a tiny bit of 2-stroke oil in the gas every once in a while and/or a tank kept in use and topped off is enough to keep the rust away.

[MickeyX]

Ssshhh, don't tell the boss... I brought my laptop to work so I can surf while at lunch.

yeah, I just wasn't seeing the point in lining the tank at all. It seems like a good intention kind of thing but has way too many draw backs. I'm wondering what they do to the tanks from factory to keep them from rusting? They've been stored all these years, NOS from Honda... what was put in them to keep them nice? Or is there a "treatment" of heat, chemical, acids or

Paul- I know less than nothing about points... none of my bikes (except this one) or Kit's have them. So, how do I know my points need replacing? Is there some measurement I should be taking or should they look a certain way? Is it wise to order a "tune up kit" on ebay that includes the points and condenser or should I really stick to Honda for this kind of stuff? I'm not sure of the diff in quality needed here.

Aw, #$%*. Gotta go back to work now. I hope I get out early tonight. It's my last shift before the vacation. I'm coming out of my skin here. 

Thanks again guys. I really need the advice any of you have and all are welcome to add anything you think I may need to know, even if I don't know I need it yet. 

[paulages]

some points will wear out quicker than others. buy OEM if you can. in case noone has explained points to you, here's a simple explanation: the coils receive power when the ignition switch is powered. the primary winding goes to the points, which ground when closed. this is 12V (or so). during this time, energy is building in the windings of the secondary circuit which collapses when the points open and then energy needs to go somewhere. this is 10,000+ V. the spark plug makes a good ground, but the energy must jump the gap at the electrode to do so, making the pretty blue spark that makes it all happen.

so think if the points kind of like switches, but amount of time they are closed (dwell) affects how much energy is built up in the secondary windings. if the points are pitted or dirty and ground poorly, energy doesn't build in the coils properly and you get no spark. the point at which they open and the plug fires is critical, but the dwell- which is controlled by the shape of the points cam and the gap you set when fully open- is important as well.

what i like about points ignition is that when you understand the system, diagnostics are easy and can be done with few tools.

[Hush]

I just did a Kreem job on my son's CBR400RR tank Mickey and for a first time attempt I think it came out quite good.
Damn instructions sucked and I needed more info off here and internet to do it but that stuff set like rock in there.
Most old tanks survive because the PO parked the bike up with a full gas tank, by the time one of us buy it the gas is dead but it has protected the inside of the tank, keeping the tank as full as possible will stop flash rust occurring.
If your points have a few millimetres of material on both tips then just clean them up, best way I was shown to do that was with a non waxed business card, just open and close the points on it a few times.
Setting them can be a #$%*, Jaffa's 400 has two sets and I curse them often but once gapped and cleaned they are extremely reliable.
Have fun.

[MickeyX]

Heh. 

Heh heh. 

Hahahahahahahaha. 

I just scored the whole steering damper set, all the washers and stuff, for $10.50 on feebay. 

Okay, back to vacation.